Creating Exonumia [solved]

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This message aims at: suggesting an idea to improve Numista

Status: Implemented
Upvotes: 22
Downvotes: 0

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Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 8 May 2016, 20:00 #

I am now pretty ill, so I cannot do anything really.

NCLT will of course remain in the coin section.

Regarding categories - that is not why I created exonumia. I just want to clean up the mess for now.

I am still not convinced what should go next after faantasy coinage.

Catalogue administrator

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 8 May 2016, 20:19 #

Hope you get well soon!

ngdawa

Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Posts: 6106

Posted: 8 May 2016, 20:30 #

Quote: "chomp-master"Don't worry, commemoratives will remain listed if reknown as real commemoratives, including NCLTs.

Sounds good!

I don't have that coins, I just saw it and thought it might've been a commemorative coin. But it it's not, then we'll just let it be, no worries.

Quote: "Jarcek"I am now pretty ill, so I cannot do anything really.

No worries mate! Numista can wait. Make sure to rest well and have lots of tea, haha!

Be well soon!

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 8 May 2016, 22:58 #

The problem with having a poll as to what stays and goes is that very few members are actually active on the forums, the site boasts over 40,000 members and yet when we have the Most Popular Coin contest we only get around 20 people voting.

At the moment we are just organising the section, but when it comes round to deleting, It's probably best to stick to the guidelines decided by Xavier and the team a year ago. But of course only Xavier has the rights to delete if someone is listed as owning the coin, so it will come down to him for the final say, which as much as I hate to admit it, will probably mean that nothing will be deleted.

Idolenz Catalogue referee

Joined: 13 Jul 2013
Posts: 9568

Posted: 8 May 2016, 23:27 #

Quote: "neilithic"The problem with having a poll as to what stays and goes is that very few members are actually active on the forums, the site boasts over 40,000 members and yet when we have the Most Popular Coin contest we only get around 20 people voting.

That's because over 90% of those 40k are zombie one-time-use, spam or double accounts. From the remaining active users a fraction are some times active in the forum and those members you will mostly see on one side of the forum (generously estimated 400 people more or less frequently participating).

ngdawa

Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Posts: 6106

Posted: 9 May 2016, 01:32 #

Quote: "Idolenz"

Quote: "neilithic"The problem with having a poll as to what stays and goes is that very few members are actually active on the forums, the site boasts over 40,000 members and yet when we have the Most Popular Coin contest we only get around 20 people voting.

That's because over 90% of those 40k are zombie one-time-use, spam or double accounts. From the remaining active users a fraction are some times active in the forum and those members you will mostly see on one side of the forum (generously estimated 400 people more or less frequently participating).

There should be a rule. Like, if you haven't logged in for a year and have 0 coins in "your collection" the account should be deleted.
If you have added coins in "your collection" then the inactive time limit could be 2 years, or 1.5 years. This way we will have a more accurate number of users.

There could also be a automatic e-mail to be sent to the e-mail address as a reminder that within X months/days your account will be deleted.

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 10 May 2016, 18:05 #

jarcek, I see from another forum that you are back. Anymore for me to do on Fantasy tokens?

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 10 May 2016, 18:08 #

School class rebel I am now.

I did not have much time... I only moved Zambia, still going through categories designated by you.

Catalogue administrator

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 10 May 2016, 20:35 #

School work should definitely be your priority.

I am definitely not as busy as you. Being a retiree, I have nothing better to do than sit around and wait for you to create new categories to work on.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 11 May 2016, 10:27 #

Heh,

Maybe this evening I will manage to do something.

You can always look at other tasks I started on thee forum in the meantime.

Catalogue administrator

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 11 May 2016, 22:20 #

Okay, I need few things.

1. Ghana is set to be moved.

2. Need to know what is the story about these Liberia patterns (what the xxxx they are??)- https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces52358.html

3. Other Liberia (Except those Patterns above) can be moved

4. EIC (East India Company) fantasy can be moved - however, only those which have "value"

Catalogue administrator

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 11 May 2016, 22:26 #

I tried to circular crop some of the coins for your picture cleanup project but neither my skills nor my tools yielded satisfactory results.

Since English is my only language I am also quite useless for the Lettering and Translation project.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 11 May 2016, 22:29 #

Check Token works, there is a still work around here. And hey, besides Czech, English is also my only language.

Catalogue administrator

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 11 May 2016, 22:30 #

Ghana, Liberia, and EIC have been submitted for validation.

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 11 May 2016, 22:45 #

Quote: "Jarcek"Okay, I need few things.

1. Ghana is set to be moved.

2. Need to know what is the story about these Liberia patterns (what the xxxx they are??)- https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces52358.html

3. Other Liberia (Except those Patterns above) can be moved

4. EIC (East India Company) fantasy can be moved - however, only those which have "value"

2. They are Pattern coins but not minted by the Liberian government, but instead these patterns where minted in Berlin (Same as Cape Colony Tokens) by a Private minting company.
They usedto have KM numbers but have been changed about 3-5 years ago to X# catalogue numbers. They are quite sough after especially by US collectors and well I collect Liberian Patterns too :)
Coins minted before 1900 that is, not the modern atrocities.

If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 11 May 2016, 22:50 #

Quote: "apuking"2. They are Pattern coins but not minted by the Liberian government, but instead these patterns where minted in Berlin (Same as Cape Colony Tokens) by a Private minting company.
They usedto have KM numbers but have been changed about 3-5 years ago to X# catalogue numbers. They are quite sough after especially by US collectors and well I collect Liberian Patterns too :)
Coins minted before 1900 that is, not the modern atrocities.

Thanks,

It is nice to have you on board here.

So they are fantasy issues, however nice and old... It seems pretty unfair to have them alongside those new abominations, but what else can I do with them?

Catalogue administrator

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:18 #

You may have noticed already.

I have just started creating entirely new category: ECU & Pre 1999 Euro

For now we have cleared for move:

Sweden - Caution here! - they are hidden in Sweden-Tokens
Catalonia - whole section.
Netherlands - whole section of Fantasy Tokens ECU
Liechtenstein - again they are hidden in the Liechtenstein - Tokens
Saint Pierre and Miquelon - whole section
Portugal - in Portugal - Tokens
Germany - again in Germany - Tokens
Finland - in Finland - tokens for a change.

Catalogue administrator

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:24 #

Catalonia submitted for validation.

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:31 #

Jarcek, your inbox

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
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Amer Salmeh

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:34 #

Quote: "AmerSalmeh"Jarcek, your inbox

I know you pointed some of them.

Mad dog running running around. That's me. Crazy mad man trying to do everything at once.

Catalogue administrator

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:36 #

Two more categories cleared for movements. (See above.)

Catalogue administrator

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:38 #

I'll take Netherlands then

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:41 #

Sweden submitted for validation.

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:42 #

Also what would u consider the Andorra tokens with values and X reference?

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
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Amer Salmeh

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 11 May 2016, 23:51 #

Thanks!

Added few more.

To Amer: I will get to it. Rome wasn't built overnight.

Catalogue administrator

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 12 May 2016, 00:01 #

Portugal has been submitted for validation.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 00:04 #

And more Fantasy issue - totally overlooked - Purple Shaftieuland Shaft - This can be moved too. And off to sleep, it was quite enough for one day.

Catalogue administrator

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 12 May 2016, 00:20 #

Wow jarcek, you've had quite a day.

Finland, Liechtenstein, and Germany submitted. Purple Shaftieuland Shaft submitted.

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 12 May 2016, 06:10 #

Completed Netherlands and Saint Pierre and Miquelon

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 12 May 2016, 06:42 #

Quote: "Jarcek"

Quote: "apuking"2. They are Pattern coins but not minted by the Liberian government, but instead these patterns where minted in Berlin (Same as Cape Colony Tokens) by a Private minting company.
They usedto have KM numbers but have been changed about 3-5 years ago to X# catalogue numbers. They are quite sough after especially by US collectors and well I collect Liberian Patterns too :)
Coins minted before 1900 that is, not the modern atrocities.
Thanks,

It is nice to have you on board here.

So they are fantasy issues, however nice and old... It seems pretty unfair to have them alongside those new abominations, but what else can I do with them?

well one of my main collecting focus is on tokens and medals so all of this does concern me as well ;)
I wouldn't like to see them there and if it was me I would prefer a new Country listing for Pattern coins.
they were minted by an officcial mint as a mean of presenting what they can do to other mints.
Nowadays most coins are minted abroad.
The Stuttgart Mint I believe to remember mints coins for more than 30 countries

oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 12 May 2016, 07:13 #

Quote: "apuking"

Quote: "Jarcek"

Quote: "apuking"2. They are Pattern coins but not minted by the Liberian government, but instead these patterns where minted in Berlin (Same as Cape Colony Tokens) by a Private minting company.
They usedto have KM numbers but have been changed about 3-5 years ago to X# catalogue numbers. They are quite sough after especially by US collectors and well I collect Liberian Patterns too :)
Coins minted before 1900 that is, not the modern atrocities.

Thanks,

It is nice to have you on board here.

So they are fantasy issues, however nice and old... It seems pretty unfair to have them alongside those new abominations, but what else can I do with them?
well one of my main collecting focus is on tokens and medals so all of this does concern me as well ;)
I wouldn't like to see them there and if it was me I would prefer a new Country listing for Pattern coins.
they were minted by an officcial mint as a mean of presenting what they can do to other mints.
Nowadays most coins are minted abroad.
The Stuttgart Mint I believe to remember mints coins for more than 30 countries

Agree. Pattern coins are a niche, but they are probably closer to 'coin' than anything else. Putting them in Exonumia makes little sense.

I don't have many, but I'd either like to see Griquatown and Cape of New Hope in a 'pattern coins' category, or at worst lumped in with the Boer Republics.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 08:43 #

Thanks for all the work!

Hm, new country listing is something I do not exactly want. (It was pretty tough to create this one already)
But I can put them in different category within exonumia - "Unofficial Patterns" - what about that?

Catalogue administrator

oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 12 May 2016, 08:50 #

Quote: "Jarcek"Thanks for all the work!

Hm, new country listing is something I do not exactly want. (It was pretty tough to create this one already)
But I can put them in different category within exonumia - "Unofficial Patterns" - what about that?

They are not really unofficial, at least in the case of the South African patterns. They were likely minted to attempt to establish interest in an official currency for the colony. - For example the Transvaal patterns morphed into the ZAR coinage. You can see most of the design elements from the following pattern in the image below in the actual ZAR coinage.

However most of the colonies did not survive long enough to establish a currency - Had they done, those early patterns would have been a basis for the minting.

I don't think having pattern coins which have considerable numismatic interest and are worth thousands of dollars is appropriate to Exonumia.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 08:53 #

I cannot really deal with "what would have been if"

, but I will try another way. From the point of view of that particular country they are supposed to be from - were they unofficial? Those states did not requested the minting of them, right?

Catalogue administrator

oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 12 May 2016, 09:04 #

Quote: "Jarcek"I cannot really deal with "what would have been if" , but I will try another way. From the point of view of that particular country they are supposed to be from - were they unofficial? Those states did not requested the minting of them, right?

I doubt a random dude just randomly decided to mint them...

The reason quoted below from tokencoins.com is the most likely reason a few of them were struck. Basically they were anticipating the independence of the states, but it never really happened, other than for ZAR. There are loads of rumours, but a lot is just guesswork.

"The most plausible story is recorded in the covering preamble by Spink and Sons South African agent, City Coins of Cape Town, Dr Frank Mitchell, a Fellow of the South African Numismatic Society, when the coin below, came up for auction in 1985. Mitchell claims that (see text in yellow block below): "The patterns were struck in Germany between 1874 and 1890 in an endeavour to solicit orders from the Transvaal Republic (the ZAR); the Orange Free State and the Cape... "

At worst you should just lump them in with ZAR imo.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 09:14 #

Thanks for the story - so they are just advertisement. Like waiting for their independence and then going saying wohooo, we have a patterns you would like, come to us, we can mint theeeem!

Mint if official, but the country never either existed, or choose/wanted them.

Any suggestions of naming the category, other than "Unofficial Patterns" ?

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oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 12 May 2016, 09:20 #

Quote: "Jarcek"Thanks for the story - so they are just advertisement. Like waiting for their independence and then going saying wohooo, we have a patterns you would like, come to us, we can mint theeeem!

Mint if official, but the country never either existed, or choose/wanted them.

Any suggestions of naming the category, other than "Unofficial Patterns" ?

No evidence exists either way if they asked/didn't as far as I'm aware. Andrey might know more, but I don't. I'd say there was probably some form of official contact, but who knows.

Just a category for "Pattern Coins" really.

Another quote, this time on the Transvaal ones: (which did then become a country) " It is also not clear if the patterns of the Berlin Mint (today very rare and highly sought after) were an official submission or simply an attempt to “sell” the idea to the Volksraad. Various denominations were minted.The Burger pattern coins bearing his likeness are the 5/-; 2/-; 6D and £1"

See here too: https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=9249 - These state the colonies asked for them.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 10:52 #

Ok, pattern coins then. They are really some strange issues.

Catalogue administrator

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 12 May 2016, 11:08 #

http://isra-mint.com/2-5.htm

We have these coins (2 or so are missing from numista) in fantasy - palestine
I can confirm all of them has the word pattern in arabic

So are they to be considered under a new pattern category now?

PS: I'd like to have them if anyone would offer them

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
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Amer Salmeh

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 11:28 #

Ok, another problem. If I name it Patter Coins, many new "fantasy patterns" will arise.

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apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 12 May 2016, 12:20 #

There is a difference between a real pattern coin, with mintages usually far below 500.
and so called patterns with mintages surpassing 10,000 clearly only minted for profit purposes (IMHO these are just fantasies)

oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 12 May 2016, 12:38 #

Quote: "Jarcek"Ok, another problem. If I name it Patter Coins, many new "fantasy patterns" will arise.

Pattern coins are not fantasy coins. They shouldn't be in Exonumia at all.

They are usually very valuable rare coins of high numismatic interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_coin

oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 12 May 2016, 12:48 #

Quote: "apuking"There is a difference between a real pattern coin, with mintages usually far below 500.
and so called patterns with mintages surpassing 10,000 clearly only minted for profit purposes (IMHO these are just fantasies)

It's just a misused term these days like 'restrike,' which should mean use of the original dies at a later late, but nowadays seems to mean 'anything that looks vaguely like the original' - pattern seems to mean 'random coin that could look a bit like a real one'

Hard to believe they want patterns as a subset of exonumia, but oh well.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 14:40 #

Look, I am just trying to tidy up here. Exonumia is just everything that does not belong into tokens. I also disagree with having pattern under it.

But we will have them all under one section, pretty close to each other.

That way, you can easily watch over them. For me, this is far better than it is now - unfoundably lost in the token section.

I will not let any fantasies into this new pattern section.

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Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 18:43 #

New categories for ECU & Pre 1999 Euro - again, not whole sections are destined to move.

Great Britain
Federated States of Europe
France
Spain
Scotland
Norway
Denmark
Austria

Catalogue administrator

oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 12 May 2016, 18:45 #

Quote: "Jarcek"Look, I am just trying to tidy up here. Exonumia is just everything that does not belong into tokens. I also disagree with having pattern under it.

But we will have them all under one section, pretty close to each other.

That way, you can easily watch over them. For me, this is far better than it is now - unfoundably lost in the token section.

I will not let any fantasies into this new pattern section.

Yes it's tidier, but for new members coming to the site and looking to add their coins it's not easier! Can't we put them inside their countries? I mean, it's not 100% acccurate, but it's better than nothing. (again subcategories would fix this entirely). So the African ones for example would go in SA as that's the logical place to look for them, the GB ones into Great Britain, etc.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 18:52 #

I agree, if those colonies asked for it. Ask referee for South Africa - https://en.numista.com/echanges/profil.php?id=23217

If he agrees, those that were asked for, can be moved of course.

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oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 12 May 2016, 20:39 #

Quote: "Jarcek"I agree, if those colonies asked for it. Ask referee for South Africa - https://en.numista.com/echanges/profil.php?id=23217

If he agrees, those that were asked for, can be moved of course.

That should be for apuking or Andrey to request. They know more about it than me

Might be better to go in ZAR then SA.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 12 May 2016, 20:40 #

I will leave them be for know, until we can clear the issue.

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eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 12 May 2016, 21:26 #

I have submitted everything for France that is Euro or ECU. I don't know what "eurosesterces" is so don't know if I should submit them also.

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 12 May 2016, 22:25 #

Quote: "oggy"oggy

Pattern coins are not fantasy coins. They shouldn't be in Exonumia at all.

They are usually very valuable rare coins of high numismatic interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_coin

A pattern coin IS exonumia, it doesn't matter how much they cost to buy.

A coin is legal tender that can be used in financial transactions whether they were designed to circulate or not.
Tokens can be used to exchange for goods or services at selected locations
A pattern coin is neither, it was never designed to circulate or be used to pay for anything so therefore it is exonumia.

If you look at the definition of exonumia then pattern coins fit it exactly

"Exonumia - Items that resemble money but are not intended to circulate as money"

chomp-master

Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Posts: 5744

Posted: 12 May 2016, 22:28 #

Even patterns made for a future coin contest?

Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 12 May 2016, 22:38 #

I might point out that my suggestion a couple of years ago, which people liked but was never actioned, was for individual sections within the relevant country for tokens and Exonumia

So New Zealand's section would read

New Zealand

Pound (1840-1965)
Dollar (1967-current)
Trade Tokens (1857-1881)
Tokens
Exonumia

Now that the Exonumia section is taking shape I'm convinced that this would be a hell of a lot better than what is happening. When it was mooted I thought the intention was to just have one section for fantasy euros, one section for ECU, one section for patterns, one section for fantasies, etc. But instead we have one section for each type for each country it's going to be almost as bad to sort through. There are 14,000 tokens and Exonumia items (and rising every day). Some sections have just 1 or 2 items in each section, some have more (The Netherlands I did yesterday had well over 100) But if the average is 10-20 in each section then we're going to have 700-1,400 different sections to sort through.

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 12 May 2016, 22:50 #

Quote: "neilithic"

Quote: "oggy"oggy

Pattern coins are not fantasy coins. They shouldn't be in Exonumia at all.

They are usually very valuable rare coins of high numismatic interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_coin
A pattern coin IS exonumia, it doesn't matter how much they cost to buy.

A coin is legal tender that can be used in financial transactions whether they were designed to circulate or not.

Tokens can be used to exchange for goods or services at selected locations

A pattern coin is neither, it was never designed to circulate or be used to pay for anything so therefore it is exonumia.

If you look at the definition of exonumia then pattern coins fit it exactly

"Exonumia - Items that resemble money but are not intended to circulate as money"

I disagree and by that we would have to move the 50% of the current coins from the countries as they were never meant for circulation.
Pattern coins are coins and will be marked as such in every definition, at every numismatic auction, in every Numismatic literature and coin catalogue.
Sure I can understand that not everyone likes them, especially for modern non circulating commemoratives.
I would not mind to have them in a seperate entity marked as Pattern coins or Essay in french but it would infuriate me to see them together with fantasy modern coins.

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 12 May 2016, 22:56 #

Quote: "chomp-master"Even patterns made for a future coin contest?

Yes, because they are a pattern, not the final coin that is minted for circulation. The final coin usually have subtle differences to the pattern as the design is fine-tuned

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 12 May 2016, 22:58 #

Submitted:
Spain
Scotland
Norway
Denmark
Austria
Great Britain

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 12 May 2016, 22:59 #

Quote: "apuking"I disagree and by that we would have to move the 50% of the current coins from the countries as they were never meant for circulation.

The difference is that non circulating commemoratives, although not designed to circulate, are still legal tender whereas a pattern coin is not.

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 12 May 2016, 23:10 #

Neil I don't want to fight with you, Im just stating my opinion. A Palauan Triangular coin is not legal tender but still listes as a coin

I welcome the recent changes and involvements, although I still think the same that if we move everything to Exonumis it just causes another chaos entry.

Pattern coins often have more derails as regular coins as the mint tries to show their best possible effort, but for mass production they are financially not feasible.
I think that medals and Patterns have their place here, just maybe in a different entry
Medals, Pattern Coins...
for me these are just as coins also historicaly incredibly enriching and giving joy to numismatists worldwide.

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 12 May 2016, 23:18 #

I don't think it needed to be a mess. If we just had one section for each type of exonumia/token and then listed the country at the start of the description then they would be automatically sorted and we wouldn't need over 1,000 different sections.

chomp-master

Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Posts: 5744

Posted: 12 May 2016, 23:19 #

I'm more with apuking in this case, as I know we have French patterns in Numista which were due to a contest to design New Franc divisional coinage. None of them was fully adopted as the final coin result was a mix of 2 of them (obverse of one, reverse of another one). And you can forget such move as I'm pretty sure the French side will protest a lot with this.

Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.

oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 13 May 2016, 00:12 #

Quote: "apuking"Neil I don't want to fight with you, Im just stating my opinion. A Palauan Triangular coin is not legal tender but still listes as a coin

I welcome the recent changes and involvements, although I still think the same that if we move everything to Exonumis it just causes another chaos entry.

Pattern coins often have more derails as regular coins as the mint tries to show their best possible effort, but for mass production they are financially not feasible.
I think that medals and Patterns have their place here, just maybe in a different entry
Medals, Pattern Coins...
for me these are just as coins also historicaly incredibly enriching and giving joy to numismatists worldwide.

Would you prefer them listed as a subsection of Exonumia, or within their parent countries to the extent that it's possible? (eg. liberian ones in liberia etc)

oggy

Joined: 8 Mar 2016
Posts: 1777

Posted: 13 May 2016, 00:15 #

Quote: "chomp-master"I'm more with apuking in this case, as I know we have French patterns in Numista which were due to a contest to design New Franc divisional coinage. None of them was fully adopted as the final coin result was a mix of 2 of them (obverse of one, reverse of another one). And you can forget such move as I'm pretty sure the French side will protest a lot with this.

Well we're going to have to be consistent, otherwise it will be a nightmare for new collectors/members who collect patterns.

We can't have some patterns wandering around exonumia, and others listed under France.

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 13 May 2016, 00:25 #

As there are I believe less than 15 patterns in the token section I would just list them in the countries.

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 13 May 2016, 00:53 #

Some of the Federated States of Europe had already been moved. I submitted the remaining Euro and ECU.
There are still some tokens left that may belong in Fantasy or some other category.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 13 May 2016, 10:48 #

Thanks eug.

Number of sections: Yes, there a lot of, automatical sorting would work only if there were no values. I just got rid of three sections, give me examples where they can be merged, and we can work something out.

Patterns: We already know that South African ones were requested - so I believe their place would be among coin section. What about Liberian ones - any information?

Apuking: A Palauan Triangular coin is not legal tender but still listes as a coin - It should not - which one?

Medals, Pattern Coins...
for me these are just as coins also historicaly incredibly enriching and giving joy to numismatists worldwide.
Very much agree! That is why I want them on one place. New country listing would be more apropriatte, I know, we could (and should) ask Xavier about it - I already pushed Exonumia without actual approaval, so I am not doing that again anytime soon.

For the sake of cleaning process, I would like to ask you all: Even that you know, that it would be better if they had their own "country", would you accept them listed under exonumia for NOW? That way we can sort them out, correct names etc... And if **Medals** show up in the future, we will have all of them on one single place, and we can move them easily and quickly.

Yes, Exonumia will now be pretty long and messy, but as I see it, it is already way better that the tokens.

Catalogue administrator

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 13 May 2016, 12:40 #

For now we should move all medals in exonumia, I hope at some point they will have their own listing.

I consider the cape colony patterns the same as the Liberia patterns, actually they were even minted by the same mint. Just move them to country Liberia.

jadejackal

Joined: 5 Aug 2012
Posts: 458

Posted: 13 May 2016, 16:24 #

Quote: "neilithic"
A coin is legal tender that can be used in financial transactions whether they were designed to circulate or not.

Tokens can be used to exchange for goods or services at selected locations

A pattern coin is neither, it was never designed to circulate or be used to pay for anything so therefore it is exonumia.

"Exonumia - Items that resemble money but are not intended to circulate as money"

If we are adhering to this definition can I move the play money entries out of tokens?

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 13 May 2016, 16:27 #

Play money will also move from Tokens to Exonumia but please wait for Jarcek to organize this step by step

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 13 May 2016, 16:32 #

Quote: "apuking"Play money will also move from Tokens to Exonumia but please wait for Jarcek to organize this step by step

Thanks.

Please wait. I still have to handle a lot of other work. (Currently we have 420 team requests pending)

I appreciate all the help, but I cannot take it all at once.

Catalogue administrator

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 14 May 2016, 20:20 #

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 14 May 2016, 20:35 #

Quote: "eug"Jarcek, looks like we are close to completing "fantasy issues". I think that the following are all that is left to consider:

Andorra X#'s that were mentioned by AmerSalmeh previously.

Abkhazia remaining tokens

Cambodia: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces70267.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces70278.html

Federated States of Europe remaining tokens

India: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces62625.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces65301.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces77361.html

Italy: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces59590.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces59840.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces5491.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces52543.html

Kuwait: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces42364.html

Sudan: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces78405.html

Samoa https://en.numista.com/catalogue/tokens-99.html#devise2370

Panama: 3 out of 5 tokens in this category are called "fantasy issue"

United Nations

Misc: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces78506.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces86391.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces23823.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces70957.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces77362.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces62178.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces34521.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces31488.html

Regarding Qatar and Sudan, these have no denomination values. So shouldn't these still be considered as tokens and NOT as fantasy issues?

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
https://www.instagram.com/amer.coins
Amer Salmeh

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 14 May 2016, 20:41 #

Thanks! I will look through this soon.

Catalogue administrator

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 15 May 2016, 00:59 #

Andorra will stay.

Abkhazia got moved, as well as Cambodia.

First two of India, as well as Sudan, Samoa and first one of Italy have no denomination value, so those will stay (out of fantasy issues)

Could you please update that list for me? So I can look it through little easier tommorow?

Catalogue administrator

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 15 May 2016, 01:28 #

How about the "union of north america" tokens?

Also what do u think of this?
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces84326.html
There are a couple of ones with different values

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
https://www.instagram.com/amer.coins
Amer Salmeh

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 15 May 2016, 02:35 #

eug

Joined: 27 Mar 2015
Posts: 245

Posted: 16 May 2016, 03:21 #

I am in the Chicago airport right now on my way to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. I do not have internet access at my cottage on Lake Superior so will be checking in rarely over the next 5 months. Will be back online in the fall.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 16 May 2016, 07:44 #

Enjoy your stay!

And thanks for all the work you done here.

Catalogue administrator

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 16 May 2016, 21:58 #

So now most of fantasy issues should finally rest in Exonumia...

Lots of cleaning to do, but we may continue - maybe medals?

List of work here:

Fantasy issues - North Pole - Need to Capitalize names.
Somebody please Explain to me story about Nightingale island and its coinage. I am lost - https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?r=Nightingale+Island&c=&co=y&cno=y&cc=y&cn=y&cj=y&ce=y&cu=y&cat=y&mode=simplifie&p=1&e=&d=&ca=3&no=&i=&v=&m=&a=&t=&dg=&w=&g=&f=
If you have any suggestion on merging some sections - bring it forward.

Catalogue administrator

neilithic

Closed account

Posted: 16 May 2016, 22:32 #

Quote: "Jarcek"
Somebody please Explain to me story about Nightingale island and its coinage. I am lost

Has Phil been setting up his own nation?

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 16 May 2016, 22:34 #

Quote: "neilithic"
Has Phil been setting up his own nation?

He is prime suspect!

Catalogue administrator

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 19 May 2016, 10:47 #

Started moving Medals/Apuking's collection.

There will be no more of whole section moving, now we will be picking one by one.

If anyone has any Suggestions for new sections - speak up!

Medal sections created so far:

German States
Austria

Catalogue administrator

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 19 May 2016, 11:09 #

Im at work so cant check but for French Insurance its definitely tokens not medals

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 19 May 2016, 11:13 #

Drawback. Will move it back. Damn, this is getting more and more complicated...

Catalogue administrator

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 19 May 2016, 12:35 #

The english currency title is wrong and I suspect this will be the case for other french token sections as well

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 19 May 2016, 12:37 #

Quote: "apuking"The english currency title is wrong and I suspect this will be the case for other french token sections as well

How wrong exactly?

Catalogue administrator

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 19 May 2016, 12:38 #

Just that most seem to be called jeton on french side but medal on english side

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 19 May 2016, 12:40 #

Thanks, seems to be more problems here that I actually thought..

Catalogue administrator

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 19 May 2016, 22:23 #

So let's wrap up fantasy issues first before starting with other stuff, shall we?

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
https://www.instagram.com/amer.coins
Amer Salmeh

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 19 May 2016, 22:24 #

Damn

Catalogue administrator

chomp-master

Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Posts: 5744

Posted: 19 May 2016, 22:28 #

We already knew this would be hard work, however the amount of various items makes this move harder than anything.

Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 19 May 2016, 22:38 #

- Islamic World
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces84586.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces56431.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces56432.html
(for the last peace, according to the weight mentioned, this should be the 5 Dinars)

They are under UAE tokens currently, however, they have nothing to do with UAE except probably the mint is located there.
I know a shop here who sells the 1 Dirham silver one, and I've had one earlier but I've sold it since I dont collect silver
The coins here have no pix but details of the coins are available on the mint website:
http://www.islamicmint.com/standards.html

I'm gonna email them and request permission for the pix now

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
https://www.instagram.com/amer.coins
Amer Salmeh

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 20 May 2016, 23:33 #

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
https://www.instagram.com/amer.coins
Amer Salmeh

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 21 May 2016, 04:03 #

Thanks, I will look through them after the weekend.

Catalogue administrator

Ecapoe

Joined: 7 Dec 2013
Posts: 2646

Posted: 22 May 2016, 09:40 #

Quote: "apuking"Just that most seem to be called jeton on french side but medal on english side

I think most of Insurance tokens, and other institutional tokens (ex. Caisse d'Epargne, Municipality etc) were "jetons de présence", that is a way to pay the attendance of members to an assembly. That is why they are no medals but monetary tokens. It is sometimes written on the reverse. Ex. https://fr.numista.com/catalogue/pieces67011.html

Previously real silver tokens, now the expression "jeton de présence" corresponds to a particular paiement but the object itself has disappeared.

Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...

apuking Catalogue referee

Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 9391

Posted: 22 May 2016, 11:30 #

The octagonal tokens from an old book I read where also accepted in most shops as a method of payment.

They were also received in form of loyalty programs ex you might have received 10 of these Maritime insurance company tokens if you have been a loyal customer for ex for 50 years.

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 22 May 2016, 11:31 #

That would effectively led to their stay in the token section.

Catalogue administrator

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 29 May 2016, 17:24 #

any updates?

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
https://www.instagram.com/amer.coins
Amer Salmeh

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 29 May 2016, 17:54 #

I did some cleanup, was busy with new additions and started discussion on German notgeld.

And Apuking find out some candidates that would most probably go to coin section.

Catalogue administrator

AmerSalmeh

Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 1688

Posted: 29 May 2016, 17:58 #

yeah I have been following that's why I didn't want to bother you before, great job!
Have you looked at my updated post above? I went through the whole tokens sections, took me few hours

Catalog Master Referee & Referee for UAE
https://www.instagram.com/amer.coins
Amer Salmeh

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 29 May 2016, 17:59 #

I will, I have to read some books to school, so I have to read/work/read/work or I wont read at all!

Catalogue administrator

Jarcek Numista team

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 16165

Posted: 29 May 2016, 18:18 #

A coin with a Km#, shouldnt it be moved to coins?
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces35411.html
-
Please change this currency
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/tokens-88.html#devise3593
to Kuwait - Official Tokens (or mint, or central bank tokens) because it's not a fantasy issue
lots of more tokens to be added from their website

Moved few medals.
Done. Back to reading.

Moved about 12 more medals.
South Africa patterns are already solved.
Back to reading.

Catalogue administrator

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