1 kreuzer 1720 brandenburg ansbach [solved]

Hello, I own this coin from 1720 with the legend D · P · M · B · NO · PR (not PM) · H · M · G · 1720 · .The other side of the coin is the same as the one you listed. Unfortunately my coin is not in the list. Please add this year. Thank you

There were hundreds of German States, and often coins looked very similar. Unless you provide images, I am going to assume you have mis-identified the coin as not all German State coins are in the Numista catalogue.
 

Numista is a community led website, coins listed are based on established catalogues provided as proof by members who create the pages and are verified by referees.

If you have proof that your coin exists, you can add or modify data to the page yourself, just click on the link on the coin page.

If you haven’t mis-identified or mis-read the date, then there is a chance your coin is a fake.

Hello, thank you very much for your quick response. I am a new user on your site and therefore I still don't know how to proceed. I will upload this coin to my account, is it possible that you will then view it? I found a site where this coin is in two versions, I am providing the links:

https://cs.ucoin.net/coin/brandenburg_ansbach-1-kreuzer-1717-1722/?tid=149808

Here is a coin like the one on your website and both your picture and theirs have the legend D · P · M · B · NO · PR (noPM) · H · M · G · 1717 ·

https://cs.ucoin.net/coin/brandenburg_ansbach-1-kreuzer-1703-1722/?tid=149806

Here is a coin that I probably own and I misidentified it because its condition is bad. But it is not listed in your catalog at all or I can't find it. I DO NOT intend to teach anyone, I am still learning myself but I would like to improve your catalog and provide correct information. Thank you very much for any help and have a nice day.

Coin images uploaded to my account

Czerticzech

Hello, thank you very much for your quick response. I am a new user on your site and therefore I still don't know how to proceed. I will upload this coin to my account, is it possible that you will then view it? I found a site where this coin is in two versions, I am providing the links:

 

https://cs.ucoin.net/coin/brandenburg_ansbach-1-kreuzer-1717-1722/?tid=149808

 

Here is a coin like the one on your website and both your picture and theirs have the legend D · P · M · B · NO · PR (noPM) · H · M · G · 1717 ·

 

https://cs.ucoin.net/coin/brandenburg_ansbach-1-kreuzer-1703-1722/?tid=149806

 

Here is a coin that I probably own and I misidentified it because its condition is bad. But it is not listed in your catalog at all or I can't find it. I DO NOT intend to teach anyone, I am still learning myself but I would like to improve your catalog and provide correct information. Thank you very much for any help and have a nice day.

 

Coin images uploaded to my account

 

The second link is the coin you own, dated 1720 with the correct legend … PR … and the coin doesnt appear to be in Numistas catalogue. Like I said, you mis-identified your coin and Numista didn’t have it in the catalogue. Adding or trying to add a year line to the wrong coin is the worst thing to do, because then Numistas catalogue wouldn’t have any credibility, that is why we have referees to validate and the whole coin „add, modify or create“ system.

I can’t see images on your account, you would need to post them here, but if the coin is bad condition dont worry too much about that, you can however provide the following information and I will add the coin to the catalogue. Weight, diameter & alignment?

Thanks again for your reply. I understand that you can't make quick conclusions and everything needs to be properly investigated. I am sending the coin details: Diameter 16mm Weight 0.75g Thickness 0.6mm

Seems to me that if Numista says the lettering is PM but shows a picture of a coin with lettering PR then something needs fixing on the Numista page. Note that the Numista coin image is of the same coin on Ucoin which curiously also says the lettering is PM. Actually both coins on the Ucoin page are PR.

@silvergeek  

The more I look into this coin, the more I think that the Numista coin is actually km136

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/german-states-brandenburg-ansbach-kreuzer-km-136-1703-1722-cuid-1141135-duid-1344743 and NGC have the wrong image? That from Brandenburg Bayreuth (with varieties in portrait, eagle, shield & spelling (comparing NGC image to Numista image)) N#85570 

NGC Brand-Ansbach.                     Numista Brand-Bayreuth

And UCoin have just copied Numista coin N#231040 into their catalogue, images, script text and all! Especially as it notes UC8 as it’s reference.

km136 isnt in the Numista catalogue, but the NGC coin image shows a different design (a lot different to „varieties exist“) than that of Ucoins (which references km136) https://en.ucoin.net/coin/brandenburg_ansbach-1-kreuzer-1703-1722/?tid=149806 and has images of coins 1703, 1707 & 1710. Likewise 1717 and 1722 appear as dates for both coins, so why produce a different version just for that year? All images have .. PR .. in the legend script, no PM, even the OPs coin (sorry I got confused with what his coin had on it) clearly it has PR also.

So we have images of coins;

1703

1707

1710

1717

1720

1722 https://www.kuenker.de/brandenburg-in-franken-brandenburg-ansbach-wilhelm-friedrich-1703-1723.-kreuzer-1722-schwabach./224240

Surely this must be km136? N#231040 

I too looked at the KM# 136 but convinced myself it wasn't N#231040. The lettering is completely off and it doesn't have the 1 in the shield.

This coin N#231447 has the same lettering with PM but years don't match.

rsirian1

I too looked at the KM# 136 but convinced myself it wasn't N#231040. The lettering is completely off and it doesn't have the 1 in the shield.

The image definitely isn’t, but if they just used Brandenburg-Bayreuth 1 Kreuzer image because they couldn’t find a Brandenburg-Ansbach one - it would all make sense. NGC would have been better off putting a better description and no image for km136 Brandenburg-Ansbach. Here is NGC Km115 for Brand-Bayreuth https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/german-states-brandenburg-bayreuth-kreuzer-km-115-1697-1710-cuid-1144446-duid-1345691

Both have Kreuzer spelt CreVzer, both have Nach dem Keyserl Fus (or Kayserl Fvs) written on them. Such spelling and subordinence (NdKF) would be state specific. So Bayreuth not Brandenburg, they wouldn’t have the same on both coins.

As for Charles William Fredrick, he was the son of William Fredrick.

King

 

As for Charles William Fredrick, he was the son of William Fredrick.

 

Yes I realized that but maybe it's a case of copying the lettering of the second and using it for the first.  I'm expecting the referee to chime in here at any minute. 

Ok if it were just a mistake on the lettering I would fix it right now but it seems even imaging might be wrong from what you guys posted. Unfortunately I am extremely busy nowadays With me about to go to college and other stuff. @escoins  might be able to help 

silvergeek

Ok if it were just a mistake on the lettering I would fix it right now but it seems even imaging might be wrong from what you guys posted. Unfortunately I am extremely busy nowadays With me about to go to college and other stuff. @escoins  might be able to help 

I think it is just the following that needs to be done;

N#231040 Needs confirmation that it is (or might be) Km136 (Brand-Ansbach) and that the image on NGC page for this coin is actually that of a coin Km115 (Brand-Bayreuth) and not Km136.

Then if this is correct, N#231040 just needs to have all the year lines added (15 in total) and PM changing to PR for the description of the legend on the reverse.

So just need a catalogue confirmation (description & / or image) of 1 Kreuzer Brand-Ansbach 1702-1722 (Poss Km136) and catalogue confirmation (description & / or image) of 1 Kreuzer Brand-Bayreuth 1697-1710 Km115. Once I have those I can make the changes myself.

edit; I spent awhile last night trying to look at Krause online as .pdf versions, unfortunately there wasn’t a comprehensive description of either Kreuzer from Ansbach or Beyreuth and from the poor image quality I could see that the image used was that of the one NGC have (with eagle and shield), so if there has been a mistake it has been made a long time ago, and repeated. Unfortunately I couldn’t find a Schon catalogue online to see what they have. The confusion continues as both Ansbach and Beyreuth mint Kreuzers similarly afterwards with the eagle and the 1 in the centre and the abbreviated text near the rim (but alas no text is written in the description and the images are too unclear to read it). We will just have to wait for @escoins to examine the coins, links and catalogues.

@King @rsirian1 @Czerticzech @silvergeek 

Hello everyone, I think I can contribute something to clarifying this question. 
After consulting all available sources of information, I can confirm, as you probably already suspected, that:

1. PM is definitely incorrect and must be changed to PR on the Numista website. The same applies to G at the end, which should be changed to C. 
The correct legend is therefore: D P M B NO PR H M C (Dei Providentia Marchio Brandenburgensis, Norimbergensis Princeps, Hohenzollernensis, Marchio Culmbacensis = 
By Divine Providence Margrave of Brandenburg, Prince of Nuremberg, of Hohenzollern, Margrave of Kulmbach.)

2. The image on the Numista website N#231040 and the reference given there, Wilm 946 (collection Wilmersdörffer), correspond exactly to KM No. 136. 

Unfortunately, the years given on the Numista website are incomplete. Walter Frank (the now deceased former president of the Schwabach Coin Society) and Jürgen Schwab (the current president of this society) do not specify the minting years of this kreuzer in their books. However, they indicate that this kreuzer was minted throughout the reign of Margrave Wilhelm Friedrich (1703–1723).

Gerhard Schön (Schön DM) lists the following years in his catalog: 1703, 1704, 1707, 1710, 1711, 1714, 1715, 1716, 1717, 1719, 1720, and 1722.

KM also lists the years 1708, 1709, and 1721. I would be cautious about the last three years and would not include them until we have proof that coins from these years actually exist.

In my next post, I will provide evidence from the literature mentioned here.

KM p. 169:

KM p. 170:

Schön DM, p 190:

Schön DM, p. 191:

Frank / Schwab: “Die Zollern in Franken und ihre Münzstätten in Schwabach”, p. 56.

Frank / Schwab: “Ein halbes Jahrtausend Geschichte zum Anfassen”, p. 154

Shall I do the work on the coin page and request the changes for you @escoins to confirm?

King

Shall I do the work on the coin page and request the changes for you @escoins to confirm?

sure, feel free to do so…

escoins

King

Shall I do the work on the coin page and request the changes for you @escoins to confirm?

sure, feel free to do so…

No problem, I’ll do a complete overhaul tomorrow. Just the one question, what is the Schön reference number?

King

escoins

King

Shall I do the work on the coin page and request the changes for you @escoins to confirm?

sure, feel free to do so…

No problem, I’ll do a complete overhaul tomorrow. Just the one question, what is the Schön reference number?

4 

:)

@Czerticzech 

you can now enter your coin on the correct year line.

King

@Czerticzech 

you can now enter your coin on the correct year line.

Thank you very much for solving another puzzle together. Have a nice evening.