New issuer: Chinese Soviet Republic? [solved]

Hello!

One era of China was the Chinese Soviet Republic, and... the map is a little weird:

(Image from Wiki.)

They were smaller, disconnected areas spread throughout China. And with discontinuous areas comes local coins. Here is what is reported by Krause, with bolded meaning currencies on Numista:

Soviet China
----- Chinese Soviet Republic
----- Hsiang-O-Hsi Soviet
----- Hunan Soviet
----- Hupeh-Honan-Anwhei Soviet
----- Min-Che-Kan Soviet
----- P'ing Chiang County Soviet
----- Shensi-North Soviet
----- Szechuan-Shensi Soviet
----- Wan-Hsi-Pei Soviet

With that being said, the list is good, but the names need work.

There was Hsiang-O-Hsi (West Hupeh and Hunan), Min-Che-Kan (Fujian-Chekiang-Kiangsi), and Wan-Hsi-Pei (Northwest Anhui). But for consistency, Hubei-Henan-Anhui should be O-Yu-Wan.

P'Ing Chiang County seems to be more-often referred to as Pingjiang County.

The coins from 'Chinese Soviet Republic' would not have been for the entire territory. They were made specifically in the 'Central Soviet', or 'Jiangxi-Fujian Soviet' (or Kiangsi-Fukien, which would be consistent with the other names). So... how about this?

Chinese Soviet Republic
----- Hsiang-O-Hsi Soviet
----- Kiangsi-Fukien Soviet
----- Hunan Soviet
----- Min-Che-Kan Soviet
----- O-Yu-Wan Soviet
----- North Shensi Soviet
----- Pingjiang County Soviet
----- Szechuan-Shensi Soviet
----- Wan-Hsi-Pei Soviet

And... that should be everything. Thoughts?

I will create a Sheet later. Thank you for your time.

Never ended up posting a link, but... there are a lot more issuers when including banknotes:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wLkS0HcSUmAFEDoImWbPjhJMz5T_k_wXP81MwCodCyg/edit?usp=sharing

I went with the unabbreviated names because, considering all banknote issuers, I think that would look nicer. And this would only be a start. It seems a few of the issuers on the list can be divided even further, but for now, I think that list should suffice.

I modified the above Sheet to accomodate 4th-level issuers.

Now that I have (basically) finished adding pages to the Chinese Provinces and Tibet, I would like to give this request a bump because I will be working on these issuers next (and it would very much help if I had an actual place to add these coins to).

All relevant coins have been added, as far as I am aware of. They are all listed under the Republic of China for now.

Giving this a bump...

To the above sheet, I added some alternate names for the Soviet areas. I also added all the wikidata items I could find, which are not many--most of these issuers do not seem to have one.

Looking on the Chinese Wiki, I found the wikidata items for North Shaanxi and Szechuan-Shaanxi, even though there is no English information on those two pages (not even titles). I found a few places with links to their un-created pages, but I do not think those ones have wikidata items. Still, I included the links, in case I missed them.

If a wikidata item is needed for each place, perhaps we can go for the generic Soviet China one (Q1060072), when a specific one does not exist?

Thank you. I think most should have a Wiki ID. I just looked up the first couple missing in your list
Fukien-Chekiang-Kiangsi Soviet: Q106674389
Hunan-Hupeh Soviet: Q10395375

Also, note we shouldn't associate IDs for different entities. e.g. you've associated the Pingchiang County Soviet with Q687952 (Pingchiang County). This should be Q110968652 (Pingjiang Soviet). And no generic ID should be added either.

Some are hard to find likely because of different spelling. This is not consistent in your sheet as well (e.g. Pingchiang vs. the Pingjiang - we should only add alternative spellings in the dedicated field)

Thank you! It looks like I was using the wrong search function on wikidata--I found a few more using the advance search, but I am still missing quite a few (specifically the Border Areas / Liberated Areas).

Quote: "stratocaster"​Also, note we shouldn't associate IDs for different entities. e.g. you've associated the Pingchiang County Soviet with Q687952 (Pingchiang County). This should be Q110968652 (Pingjiang Soviet). And no generic ID should be added either.​

I only do this when there is no other alternative--Pingchiang Soviet could be seen as an era of Pingjiang County, hence why I settled for that item. I am actually kind of surprised Pingchiang Soviet has its own wikidata item, although I could not find ones for Liuyang or Wanzai (which, currently, still have their "county equivalent" listed).

But of course, with these Soviet issuers having such strange borders, it is only these three county-issuers which would fall in this situation, as nothing else has anything comparable.

Quote: "stratocaster"​Some are hard to find likely because of different spelling. This is not consistent in your sheet as well (e.g. Pingchiang vs. the Pingjiang - we should only add alternative spellings in the dedicated field)

The spelling should all be consistent within my Sheet (aside from Pingchiang versus Pingjiang--I did not realize I mixed these two spellings, which I have now corrected).

With that being said, the spellings I proposed and the spellings on the wikidata items should all be different from one another. On the wikidata items (and all the Wiki pages), they use the modern romanizations; on my list, I use the former/contemporary romanizations. This is often directly reflected on the coins/banknotes themselves, where the contemporary romanizations are used.

Of course, people should still be able to find these places using the modern romanizations, hence why I added all those to the "alternate name" sections (as well as the abbreviations, like "O-Yu-Wan").

I added a few more alternate names, and I finally re-found the three-part essay talking about the coins/banknotes from these places.

http://www.thecurrencycollector.com/pdfs/The_Money_of_Communist_China_1927-1949_-Part_I.pdf
http://www.thecurrencycollector.com/pdfs/The_Money_of_Communist_China_1927-1949_-Part_II.pdf
http://www.thecurrencycollector.com/pdfs/The_Money_of_Communist_China_1927-1949_-Part_III.pdf

Would you like to recheck whats needed here? 

@Compendium - this will be up to us to solve, they do not even have access to this forum post anymore.

@Xavier can you move this thread to public forum?

Done :)

@Sulfur bump :-)

Nice to see this bumped. And if any of my other referee forum posts are in a similar situation, feel free to do that with them as well.  x)

 

Everything in this particular post should be veryyyy accurate--it was pending for a long time, and while I was referee, I checked it over many times. I know that the "Early Soviet (with coins)" section has been entirely complete on Numista since the creation of this post, categorized by name under a false currency in the Republic of China:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/chine_republique-1.html#c_chine_republique2464

 

The banknote ones are going to be more difficult, but they definitely all had banknotes. They are all listed within the three-part essay posted above, all with their relevant banks. If these get added, I will make sure the sections are populated.  :)

Ok, after so long…. 

 

I just added all the Soviets, but I am uneasy about those border areas and liberated areas. What is the actual issuer? The land/area itself hardly.

I requested all coins to be moved to their proper issuer. Starting there. :)

 

I am not sure I understand your confusion with the other areas though. They are just like the other Soviet issuers, just during different times of the reigme with completely new borders (and new banknotes as well).

My confusion is about the naming. What are those “areas” exactly? Some regional military administrations?

I think this gives the best explaination:

“Mao tried everything to win popular support in the war against Japan. Shadow governments were set up in liberated areas with officials elected by the peasants. These base areas made their own laws, published their own books and newspapers, issued currency and even had their own postal system. Yenan, the capital, although physically separated from many of these areas, was in constant radio contact with them. The scattered areas occupied by the Communist Party and its armies grew during World War II until most of north China was under party control. By the close of World War II, in 1945, nineteen such “Liberated Areas” had been created in Shensi, central and south China. All had their own banking systems. The Red regime was popular with the people of these border regions and liberated areas, in part due to the economic reforms instituted by these banks.”

https://www.thecurrencycollector.com/pdfs/The_Money_of_Communist_China_1927-1949_-Part_II.pdf

 

And for the difference between the two terms:

"At the end of World War II the conquest of lands formerly occupied by the Japanese army and the forces of Ch'ing Kai-shek were styled the "liberation" of these areas. The old term "Border Area" gave way to "Liberated Area". The older border areas were merged into the new, greatly expanded liberated areas, while new liberated areas were created to meet the needs of conquest."

https://www.thecurrencycollector.com/pdfs/The_Money_of_Communist_China_1927-1949_-Part_III.pdf

 

Hopefully that helps?:)

Even their own laws? Interesting.

 

So it was like a one body that founded decentralized governments all over the place in different areas.

We could theoretically lump them in one issuer, with different issuing entities, but since the liberties were so great - creating own laws, own currency issuance, I believe we have no option than to work this out on issuer level. I will add them.

All added now.

Yay. Thank you very much!:)

 

All coin requests have been validated, so it should be looking decent on that side. The banknote side will be a lot more complicated, but I will do my best to sort everything out there, and make requests to add the banks, ruling authorities, and currencies. It will most likely take at least a few days before I start those requests, as I need to plan this out before I start doing it.

 

In the meantime, if you could make me the referee of Soviet China (or send my request for that down the line), this all might go a little faster when I start adding everything we're missing:)