I have visited the Patreon website today, and have seen that the great work of Jarcek is sponsored by 6 - I transcribe: SIX people! - what first comes to my mind is: SHAME ON YOU!
Of course, if you cannot really afford, then ignore, but for a lot of us, and a lot of you it is a beer per month, or a capuccino....
Would you not invite the man who is working day-and-night to accomodate you to a pleasure experience on Numista? Who provides a great background work to make your Numista experience enjoyable and workable.
If you would meet him personally would not you invite him for a drink?
Go here and DO it: https://www.patreon.com/Jarcek/posts
p.s. Jarek does not know that I am pissed off, so do not embarrass him for this!
Oh hell no, this is a collaborative website and there are plenty that do a lot of work without expecting payment. I know Jarcek does a fair amount but should NOT be asking for payment for that work. I have heard in the past of another team member trying to charge people for coin identifications and that made me almost as angry.
Think of a sports club. If someone offers to act as treasurer for the club, would you expect them to then turn around and ask the club members to pay them for doing it? He put himself forward for the position he has on the site, if he finds that it's too much work then he should withdraw from the position rather than asking people for payment for the VOLUNTEER position.
Quote: "neilithicman"Oh hell no, this is a collaborative website and there are plenty that do a lot of work without expecting payment. I know Jarcek does a fair amount but should NOT be asking for payment for that work. I have heard in the past of another team member trying to charge people for coin identifications and that made me almost as angry.
Think of a sports club. If someone offers to act as treasurer for the club, would you expect them to then turn around and ask the club members to pay them for doing it? He put himself forward for the position he has on the site, if he finds that it's too much work then he should withdraw from the position rather than asking people for payment for the VOLUNTEER position.
Quote: "neilithicman"Oh hell no, this is a collaborative website and there are plenty that do a lot of work without expecting payment. I know Jarcek does a fair amount but should NOT be asking for payment for that work. I have heard in the past of another team member trying to charge people for coin identifications and that made me almost as angry.
Think of a sports club. If someone offers to act as treasurer for the club, would you expect them to then turn around and ask the club members to pay them for doing it? He put himself forward for the position he has on the site, if he finds that it's too much work then he should withdraw from the position rather than asking people for payment for the VOLUNTEER position.
Quote: "neilithicman"Oh hell no, this is a collaborative website and there are plenty that do a lot of work without expecting payment. I know Jarcek does a fair amount but should NOT be asking for payment for that work. I have heard in the past of another team member trying to charge people for coin identifications and that made me almost as angry.
Think of a sports club. If someone offers to act as treasurer for the club, would you expect them to then turn around and ask the club members to pay them for doing it? He put himself forward for the position he has on the site, if he finds that it's too much work then he should withdraw from the position rather than asking people for payment for the VOLUNTEER position.
Who was that person?
Just read all Muenzenhamster's posts and you'll know the dark side of Numista.
I find it more than disgraceful and disrespectful to compare Jarcek's full-time job efforts in the background to those greedy trolls, mentioned or hinted at.
If you do not want to support someone who keeps this site alive, then do not!
But, at least, do not kill his character!
Please.
This site is alive because of many users who contribute every single day WITHOUT asking anything. As Neil already said, none is forced to do anything so none should have to claim anything.
Quote: "neilithicman"Oh hell no, this is a collaborative website and there are plenty that do a lot of work without expecting payment. I know Jarcek does a fair amount but should NOT be asking for payment for that work. I have heard in the past of another team member trying to charge people for coin identifications and that made me almost as angry.
Think of a sports club. If someone offers to act as treasurer for the club, would you expect them to then turn around and ask the club members to pay them for doing it? He put himself forward for the position he has on the site, if he finds that it's too much work then he should withdraw from the position rather than asking people for payment for the VOLUNTEER position.
It was far worse than just asking a fee to identify the coins. He pocketed the cash then proceeded to pocket the coins as well. Double scammer.
There's simply no comparison between Kennyg (AKA smartoneKG) and Jareck. I'm hopeful that our financial recovery will eventually happen and at that point I'd like to make a modest contribution. More symbolic than substantive y'know? It's not even about the catalog, two of the biggest contributors were also two of the most wretched people ever to create an account. I guess it's about being a good human being, and Jarek falls firmly into that category, as incidentally do you.
I don't think an equivalent sum of a cup of coffee is going to significantly improve the dear fellow's life but it would be a nice way to say, "Thanks just for being you."
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Thank you, my dear Phil,
As the Transylvanian Hungarian saying goes: "A silent voice of an educated gentleman, is worth of 1000 peasant's loud words" (including mine)
Quote: "imreh"Thank you, my dear Phil,
As the Transylvanian Hungarian saying goes: "A silent voice of an educated gentleman, is worth of 1000 peasant's words" (including me)
My dear Imre, if you're a peasant then I'm a Zulu.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
After some reflection on the matter, I would like to express my opinion that he should be free to ask for donation, and other users are free either to donate or to refuse.
Or to donate to other contributors.
By the way, is there a way to donate to the website's creator?
Quote: "numinis"After some reflection on the matter, I would like to express my opinion that he should be free to ask for donation, and other users are free either to donate or to refuse.
Or to donate to other contributors.
By the way, is there a way to donate to the website's creator?
If you're planning on making any online purchases you could enter the website via a link on the Numista page, that way a percentage of the total is returned to Numista. Good way to help support the cost of hosting the servers etc.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Quote: "numinis"After some reflection on the matter, I would like to express my opinion that he should be free to ask for donation, and other users are free either to donate or to refuse.
Or to donate to other contributors.
By the way, is there a way to donate to the website's creator?
If you're planning on making any online purchases you could enter the website via a link on the Numista page, that way a percentage of the total is returned to Numista. Good way to help support the cost of hosting the servers etc.
I would not worry a single bit about the "creator" he gets his more than fair share from adverts, no worries... I worry about the full time real workers on this venture... who actually makes it work
I can only agree with imreh. Many people are doing incredible work to build the catalogue of Numista, and Jarcek is among the best of them. He definitely deserves his monthly beer from each person who appreciate his work!
I'm indeed lucky to get revenues from the ads on Numista. Not enough (yet?) to replace my normal job though. I don't accept donations at the moment, but I'm thinking about maybe implementing a subscription to see the website without ads in the future.
I find this financial model the most inclusive and love it.
Many museums in London work this way: it's free to visit them and at the exit you are asked to donate a fiver. A lot of content creators on Youtube and independent digital artists and developers work this way too: watch their video or use their app and if you like it, you can support the authors. Book publishers too. Wikipedia uses the exact same model: it's free but occasionally you'll see a banner asking for donations. I always chip in.
I joined Numista less than a year ago and I noticed straight away the amazing work that Jarek is doing and started supporting his Patreon. I only wish I could support him more... maybe once I graduate.
I ditto what Stratocaster says, as I was thinking the same thing as I was reading this thread.
When I was at uni 10 years ago, I tried to create an online portal for my coin collection and somewhere to buy and sell coins individually, but alas I didn't have the time (Uni, Work & Sports) nor quite the skills to set it up properly.
Maybe at Christmas you guys could set up a donation page, which if a member wishes, they can make a donation to support the site and also as a sign of appreciation to all your hard work, as I couldn't do it.
I personally don't think it's right to ask for money for a voluntary job.
I imagine he has a normal job or some other means of supporting his life, but asking for extra money for voluntary work is just wrong in my eyes. I'm grateful for the massive amount of work he puts into the site but he shouldn't be trying to make money from it. If I must be brutally blunt, he won't make enough from patreon to cover all his bills etc anytime soon, so he should get his priorities straight. If he is putting so much time into the website that he cannot do his daytime job, then that's a bigger problem.
To add to my last comment, I think it would be more fitting if Xavier created an official Patreon page so people who want to support Numista directly can and help keep the digital lights on.
Quote: "imreh"Bonsoir Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have visited the Patreon website today, and have seen that the great work of Jarcek is sponsored by 6 - I transcribe: SIX people! - what first comes to my mind is:
SHAME ON YOU!
I personally feel offended at the suggestion that we should feel guilty for not contributing. This is supposed to be a free wiki style site, we all contribute. Some contribute more than others sure, but we shouldn't made to feel guilty for not contributing coffee money to someone who's asking payment for the job they volunteered to do.
Quote: "Xavier"I can only agree with imreh. Many people are doing incredible work to build the catalogue of Numista, and Jarcek is among the best of them. He definitely deserves his monthly beer from each person who appreciate his work!
I'm indeed lucky to get revenues from the ads on Numista. Not enough (yet?) to replace my normal job though. I don't accept donations at the moment, but I'm thinking about maybe implementing a subscription to see the website without ads in the future.
Bonsoir Monsieur,
I have to admit I have been misjudging Numista's income potential. My thoughts were that probably by now your biggest trouble is which of the Ducas or Leliévre establishment to choose for an 11 course Michelin-star dinner, then decide which Grand Cru goes the best with it... then hesitate for a while whether an Otard will do as a digestive, or it is time try that 24ys old Rum from Martinique...
I certainly believe that by now - and I remember the darker past - Numista offers good level services to be partially chargeable and profitable.
I also think that you should not be shy about this.
My suggestion is to reconsider your existing and potential revenue streams:
1) Ads - they have been annoying in the past, but somehow you managed to make it not just functional, but actually supportive. I started to like them as it gives an impression on what's on the market, and what people consider them to be worth. - certainly would not eliminate them
2) Donations - I don't see why you are not introducing them for Numista, as mentioned above, wikipedia does that, museums, UN institutions, educationals and even the heavily funded American Numismatic Society does that... and most of them do not provide even compareble services, where members hang on for hours...
3) Premium membership - there might be some forums, some level access to remain free, while some extras, shall come for a fee, just like with LinkedIn or facebook and list is endless.
I would certainly start with the sellers/traders/merchants and those "outings" who actually advertise themselves free of charge.
If you want to sell coins on Numista, then pay a monthly fee!
If you want to advertise your eBay stream, your own websites, then pay!
And of course all these incomes can be then redistributed at your discretion amongst those contributors who do their job consistently, continuously and accountably. (before the kindergarden attacks, I am NOT one of those!)
If you wish to discuss this in a separate thread, I am happy to support,
En bonne santé,
Imre
I find the ads blend well with the site as they're always numismatically themed. I do actually click through very often to get more information about a particular coin and while I'm not currently in a position to buy any, I'm pretty sure there are people a'plenty who are. If I was in the business of selling high end coins or even wholesaling them, Numista is where I'd want my advertising budget to be spent. Strange to note that the eBay links have vanished - I know for sure that they offer very generous payments to the referring website.
The point being of course is that because the ads are relevant I don't think there would be much demand for a premium account which excluded said ads! I guess there's something to be said about being a victim of one's own success? It's much better than the "Hot Asian Brides Are Looking For YOU!" ads we used to get back in the day.
I'd be very wary of charging a fee to access any part of the website, especially the swaps and trades forum. I use it very occasionally to sell items which don't really lend themselves to the swapping format but always with the condition that swaps instead of cash are welcome. A monthly fee would deter the casual seller who the forum is intended for but would be readily absorbed by the dealers who it isn't! I like the way it operates now, outright scammers and other sketchy types are excluded and those who view Numista as a free eBay alternative are discreetly moved on by the moderators. They occasionally get it wrong but on the whole they manage things just fine.
Of course I'd like to see the world's premier coin website have some kind of profit motive to make sure it remains active. In my view the best way is via an entirely voluntary donation event, perhaps every Christmas, along with the release of yearly Numista tokens. Support this with an aggressive campaign to attract advertisers and we're all happy. I wonder how much a company such as Littleton would pay each month to have a discreet banner ad in a rotation at the bottom of each page?
Let's work out a way to let those making the big bucks from the hobby pay for our favorite website while allowing new and younger collectors, who are it's lifeblood and future, the opportunity to learn to love coin collecting without the burden of subscriptions.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Just my 2 cents, I'd personally be perfectly fine with some kind of an annual membership fee, let's say $20. This is the direction the online world is moving to more and more. Look at Netflix, Amazon Prime (plus Music and Video), pretty much every single fitness app, and the list will not end before the day ends.
As for the areas to be unaccessible to non-paying members, I'd say identification forums, probably catalog forums as well, and may be some advanced filtering options for the swap lists like not being able to match against "my wishes" or hiding the coins marked to be ignored.
Overall I agree with the statements above that Numista is the best resource in the World and it is probably time for Xavier to revisit this topic.
Quote: "smoked_caramel"Just my 2 cents, I'd personally be perfectly fine with some kind of an annual membership fee, let's say $20.
As for the areas to be unaccessible to non-paying members, I'd say identification forums, probably catalog forums as well, and may be some advanced filtering options for the swap lists like not being able to match against "my wishes" or hiding the coins marked to be ignored.
Aren't we here to encourage new people to join our hobby?
The ID forums are where the seasoned collectors get to share the wealth of their experience with the people just starting out. How many new collectors do you think we'd get if we said "Oh we'll help you get started and identify your coins, but you're going to have to pay for the privilege."? Especially if it's some kid that has been left their grandfathers collection of something. I'd much rather them have access to the knowledge of experienced collectors for free and get into the hobby than have them turned away by the prospect of a registration fee and get ripped off by taking their collection to a shady coin dealer.
Quote: "neilithicman"
Aren't we here to encourage new people to join our hobby?
The ID forums are where the seasoned collectors get to share the wealth of their experience with the people just starting out. How many new collectors do you think we'd get if we said "Oh we'll help you get started and identify your coins, but you're going to have to pay for the privilege."? Especially if it's some kid that has been left their grandfathers collection of something. I'd much rather them have access to the knowledge of experienced collectors for free and get into the hobby than have them turned away by the prospect of a registration fee and get ripped off by taking their collection to a shady coin dealer.
Yeah, that makes sense, I guess.
Well, I'm sure there is a way. As an option, every new member gets the first 3 months free. Maybe even 6 months...
You can just do what Wikipedia have and have a voluntary donation page.
The donations would go to Xavier as the owner of the website, and he in turn can then pay Jarcek what he deems a fair portion of it. I would be happier with that arrangement. The Patreon page just seems to me to be someone trying to cash in on someone else's business.
I totally understand the website needs fund for operate, so I would totally agree for search a continuous source of income to maintain. However, when it comes to membership subscription, my concern is that contributors spent their time and money on contributing their hard work for free, but Xavier, the owner, could pocket all the income (?).
The website belongs to Xavier, so receiving ads income is absolutely not a problem whatever the amount is (we can use Numista for free anyways), but the coin information and pictures aren't, they are belong to contributors; moderators also spent their time for maintaining the quality of the pages. So I wouldn't agree with the subscription plan unless there is an objective, fair, continuous rewarding system for those who made contributions to the website.
Free services -> Zero reward for contribution (No problem)
Charged services -> Zero reward for contribution (Problem)
Also, I would remind that, when Numista comes to charged services, you will need to pay attention for the "image courtesy" issues. Some providers authorize you to use their image provided that your website is non-profit nature. So if you made profit from subscriptions (again, the point of first paragraph), Xavier might need to review all of those authorization whether it is still valid.
And the last point is, I would request transparency on the income status just to make sure the contributors are fairly rewarded.
And yah, that's all the technical problem I can think at this moment.
The topic changed a bit but its now an interesting topic to discuss.
I would clearly stay, let this site leave as free for all. Isn't that the basic idea of Numista to connect every one in the world to numismatics.
Sure I would be ok with a donation option as that would still mean we are a non Profit site.
What would be if additional inome would be used for server costs + advertisements in numismatic magazines for example?
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Quote: "Idolenz"But wouldn't this mean we are not a non-profit site anymore and we might have to remove a big portion of our resources.
Someone here stepped back to see the whole picture. This is a very good observation.
Does this mean, that for all pictures from other sites, which gave explicit permission of publishing them on this site (free of charge), should be checked upon again?
I would not mind a small donation as a surplus to the price of yearly Numista token(s).
In the end its the owner of the site, who has to decide which way to go and not of us contributors... hopefully a well deserved thought shall be given to the way things work here today and why many people join this place.
