Request about banknote issuing entities/ruling authorities/currencies - Russia [solved]

Hi,

I've noticed there are currently no issuing entities listed in the banknote catalog for Russia - Empire / Soviet Union. There were quite a few, actually:

- Various regional entities and local Red and White regimes which existed briefly in the period following the Bolshevik revolution, prior to the Soviets establishing firm control over the entire country. See 2013 SCWPM, Specialized Issues, Russia pp. 963-965 for a list of these entities. Now, thinking about it, I don't think these would fit well into either Russia - Empire (which came to an end in 1917) or the Soviet Union. One possibility would be to put the ones issued prior to the formation of the Soviet Union in 1921 into a separate Russia - Civil War Issues section.

Soviet Union:
- State Treasury of the USSR (low denomination notes: 1, 3, and 5 Rubles)
- State Bank of the USSR (higher denomination notes, from 10 Rubles/1 Chervonets and up)
- Various state-controlled agencies that issued Foreign Exchange Certificates. These certificates can also be found in the SCWPM, Specialized Issues with P-FX numbers, pp. 1029-1034.

Can we get these added to the catalog?

Hello,
I just created the issuer "Russia - Civil War Issues" and the issuing entities "State Treasury of the USSR" and "State Bank of the USSR". I don't have access to the SCWPM. Do you mind providing the list of issuing entities which should be added?

Russia - Civil War Emergency Issues

TBD

Soviet Union

Please add a new currency: Soviet Union (USSR) - Foreign Exchange Certificate - Ruble

Issuing entities:
- Vneshposyltorg (All-Union Foreign Mail Order Trade Association)
- Gosbank (State Bank)
- Vneshtorgbank (Bank of Foreign Trade)
- Vnesheconombank (Bank for Foreign Economic Activity)

Also, could we please fix the name of the currency from:
Soviet Union (USSR) - Government Bank Issue - Ruble (1991)
to:
Soviet Union (USSR) - State Bank Issue - Ruble (1991)

Government Bank is a bad translation of Государственный Банк and sounds rather awkward in English.

And I could also draw your attention to this thread, it'd be much appreciated:

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic95487.html

Need one more issuer added, please: Russia - Russian Republic (1917)

Following Nikolai II's abdication, a Provisional Government was formed. On September 1, 1917, it decreed the Russian Republic to be the country's new official name. Even though the Provisional Government was very short lived (it existed for just several months and only lasted for 6 more weeks after changing the country's name before it was deposed by the October, 1917 revolution), a series of notes were authorized by it on April 26 and August 22, 1917. These notes were printed by the American Bank Note Co (USA). The 1917 issue was released and circulated until 1922. 1918 and 1919 issued got printed, but were never released.

Associated ruling authority: Russia - Provisional Government (Mar 2, 1917 - Oct 25, 1917)

Associated currencies:
Russian Republic - State Credit Notes - Ruble (1917-1919)
Russian Republic - State Treasury Notes - Ruble (1917)

See http://fox-notes.ru/img_rus/1_k2_vp.htm for a list of these notes.

ps: I would also suggest the end date on the currency for Russia - Empire - Rouble (1700-1921) to be adjusted to 1917.

Hello,

This is a super complex period, and we should try to organise it according to the Numista structures: Issuers, Ruling Authorities, Issuing Banks, Currencies.

I just had a look at Northern Russia for now, and this is how I see it:

- Russia
---- Russia - Civil war issues
-------- Northern Russia
------------ Arkhangelsk Governorate
------------- ------ r.a.: Red Regime
------------- ------ r.a.: White Regime
------------- ------ i.b.: State Bank - Archangelsk Branch
------------ Murmansk Soviet
------------- ------ r.a.: Red Regime
------------- ------ r.a.: White Regime
------------ Olonets Governorate
------------- ------ r.a.: Government of Olonets
------------ Severnyy Krai / Severnaya Oblast
------------- ------ r.a.: Supreme Administration of the Northern Region
------------- ------ r.a.: Provisional Government of the Northern Region
------------- ------ i.b.: Treasury
------------- ------ i.b.: State Issuing Office
​​​​​​​------------- ------ i.b.: City Issuing Office

Any thoughts on this?

Best

That makes sense, as long as we can make everything fit into the existing structure. I'll update the list.

Alright, I've updated the list.

Here is a list of banknote-issuing institutions, which need to be added for the various countries of the British Empire & the British Commonwealth;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_banknote-issuing_institutions .

Yes, those for the Republic of Ireland, Somaliland, South Sudan, & Zimbabwe are included, as are those for the Colony of Hong Kong.

Aidan.

Any updates on this?

Hello,

I am a bit puzzled, because I proposed a structure, you said you agreed, but thzen you proposed quite a different structure.

Just looking at issuers in Northern Russia, I have these ones:

-- Arkhangelsk Governorate
-- Murmansk Soviet
-- Olonets Governorate
-- Severnyy Krai

But you don't have any issuers, is this correct? You just show authorities, entities, and currency and have North Russia as an issuer. But North Russia is just a geographical area we use as a section, so I don't agree it's an issuer. We need proper issuers like the ones I proposed, i.e. some kind of administrative units (Governorate, Soviet, City, Krai etc).

Hope this makes sense.

Best

Updated once again. Let me know if it makes more sense now or if you feel it needs more work.

Thank you for the update.

But I still have some questions:

i. Supreme Administration of the North Region (1918-1919)
"Administration" does not seem to be an issuer, but rather a government, i.e a ruling authority. The issuer would be the Northern Region / Severnaya Oblast.

i. Achangelsk Government (1918)
"Government" is an institution. The issuer should be Governorate
-- r.a. Red Regime
-- r.a. White Regime <--- Same notes with registration overprint
-- i.e. Archangelsk Branch of the State Bank

i. Murmansk Soviet (1918)
-- r.a. Red Regime
-- r.a. White Regime <--- Same notes with registration overprint
-- i.e. Murmansk Branch of the State Bank

i. Government of the North Region (ND)
"Government" should be a ruling authority? The issuer would be again the Northern Region / Severnyy Krai. Is this not just another ruling authority of the same Northern Region listed above? And for these we should add the issuing entities: Treasury, State issuing office, City issuing office?

i. Olonets Province (1918)
This seems to be called "Governorate" in English. Why Province?

Best

The general geographical areas are good candidates for grouping issuers into sub-sections, i.e. North Russia, South Russia, etc BUT...

Notes are issued not by geographical areas, but by (civil/military) administrative entities local to those areas. The issuer (issuing authority) should be the entity listed on the banknote - literally, who authorized the issue, and this is what users will be looking for when identifying their notes. It may be a regional administration / government, a regional treasury, an army, a city, a bank/branch of a bank, etc. Everything else (ruling authority, issuing entity, currency) is just extra information providing additional detail, when it's available.

A ruling authority is typically whoever is/claims-to-be in charge of the issuer, a red/white regime/ revolutionary committee, a military commander, etc.

Olonets Province vs Governorate -- In Russian, it's Олонецкая губерния. Either translation is acceptable, but neither is 100% accurate.

I admit it can be confusing, but that's not quite how it works.

What you list as issuers/issuing authorities are cataloged as issuing entities in Numista: banks, armies, treasuries, etc.

Issuers are administrative units where the currency circulated (countries, kingdoms, provinces, governorates etc).

To give you some examples:
-- Issuer: Hungary; Issuing entity: Hungarian Commercial Bank
-- Issuer: Department of Nord-Pas-de-Calais; Issuing entity: Chamber of Commerce of Nord and Pas-de-Calais
-- Issuer: Hungary; Issuing entity: The Command of the Red Army
-- Issuer: Canton of Geneve; Issuing entity: The Commercial Bank

So back to the Russian issues, for a note like this:

we should have:
-- Issuer: Northern Region; the note circulated in Severnaya Oblast
-- Issuing entity: Treasury; the note is called a "Treasury Bill", it's written on it
-- Issuing authority: Provisional Government of the Northern Region; as written on the note (ВРЕМЕННОГО ПРАВИТЕЛЬСТВА СЂВЕРНОЙ ОБЛАСТИ). As you said, they were in charge.

Hope it makes sense

Best

Alright, let's limit the scope to just North Russia for now. Once we arrive to something you feel you are ready to implement, we'll continue to other sections.

Your list and some background information and my thoughts below:
- Russia
---- Russia - Civil war issues
-------- Northern Russia
------------ Arkhangelsk Governorate
------------- ------ r.a.: Red Regime
------------- ------ r.a.: White Regime
------------- ------ i.b.: State Bank - Archangelsk Branch
------------ Murmansk Soviet
------------- ------ r.a.: Red Regime
------------- ------ r.a.: White Regime
------------ Olonets Governorate
------------- ------ r.a.: Government of Olonets
------------ Severnyy Krai / Severnaya Oblast
------------- ------ r.a.: Supreme Administration of the Northern Region
------------- ------ r.a.: Provisional Government of the Northern Region
------------- ------ i.b.: Treasury
------------- ------ i.b.: State Issuing Office
​​​​​​​------------- ------ i.b.: City Issuing Office

The definition of an issuer you provided is the administrative unit where the currency circulated, but here you are deriving issuer names from issuing entity names. This comes with a built-in assumption that the currency issued by these entities was only meant to circulate within the confines of that one unit. This was not always true.

Russia - Civil war issues -- I'd like to see this renamed to "Russia - Civil War Emergency Issues" or even "Russia - Civil War - Local and Regional Emergency Issues" to avoid confusion with RSFSR notes issued during the same time period.

-- Arkhangelsk Governorate -- Checks/notes issued by the Arkhangelsk branch of the State Bank in early 1918, under the authority of a pro-Red regime. Following the foreign intervention into North Russia later that year and the formation of the Supreme Administration of the North Region (Верховное Управление Северной Области), a pro-White regime, a decree was issued (Sep 4, 1918) to register these checks by adding a registration overprint. So, here we can more clearly identify the White Regime.

-- Murmansk Soviet -- This literally translates as the Murmansk (City) Council, which according to you cannot be an issuer because it's an organization, not an administrative unit. It would need to be something like "Murmansk, City of" instead. These are the same Arkhangelsk-issued/distributed notes/checks from above, both w/ and w/o registration overprints, with a round stamp added by the Finance Department of the Murmansk исполком (short for Исполнительный Комитет / Executive Committee), approving them for local circulation, which was really just a way to add credibility to currency issued somewhere else.

-- Olonets Governorate -- The decision to print these notes was passed by the Executive Committee of the Olonets Governorate Council of Workers, Peasants, and Military Deputes on Jan 12, 1918. On July 29, 1918, the decision was reversed. The notes were supposed to be issued by the Petrozavodsk branch of the State Bank, but were never released into circulation.

-- Severnyy Krai -- From Aug 2, 1918 to Feb of 1920, an administrative unit (including but not limited to all of the above) under control of foreign intervention forces and White forces, with its administrative center in Arkhangelsk. The State Issuing Office (State Bank of Severnaya Oblast / Государственный Банк Северной Области) here refers to what was previously the Arkhangelsk branch of the State Bank. Its issues include older Imperial and Provisional Government notes/obligations perforated with ГБСО. I'm not sure what you mean by the City Issuing Office. Are you talking about notes stamped with Городской vs Государственный?

"This comes with a built-in assumption that the currency issued by these entities was only meant to circulate within the confines of that one unit. This was not always true."
I agree, here we can be flexible. Euro coins for example are listed in their respective countries, but they circulate in the entire EU. My comment is more about the fact that issuers should be Provinces, States, Cities etc, rather than Banks and Institutions.

"Murmansk, City of"
sure

For the other ones, I don't always see the change you propose? I see some comments re. stamped or perforated notes. We issue these under the authority and entity that issued the stamp, rather than the issuer of the original note. Like for counter-stamped coins.

Best