German currencies [solved]

As we embark on our new banknote catalogue, perhaps now would be a good time to remove the superfluous division between German issues before and after 1914. "Goldmark" and "Papiermark" were terms applied later to recognize the stability of the first period versus the instability of the second period. They have no actual significance, with many of the same notes and coins being issued both before and after the start of WWI.

Hi ceh2019,

The fact that goldmark and papiermark are retroactively invented terms, does not mean we cannot use them.

The mark is now known as the papiermark after the monetary reform from 4 august 1914, in which the mark was no longer tied to gold. The goldmark was fixed at 358 mg gold before that.

Currencies in Numista generally reflect monetary reforms, and therefore I think the split is perfectly legitimate.

best

If you followed that logic, you'd also split the pound sterling and the French franc, as both of them went off the gold standard in 1914. The UK even introduced new paper money to replace gold coins and France never got back to its pre-war peg. However, none of these were monetary reforms in which new currency units or an entirely new coinage or set of banknotes were introduced. Many German coins and banknotes circulated both before and after 4/8/14. The only reason we treat Germany differently is because of the hyperinflation that didn't start until years later. Austria also suffered hyperinflation inflation after WWI, but we don't split the krone into two.

It's unfortunately impossible to come up with some simple rules and be 100% consistent... I wish it was simple, but we have to judge case by case.

France had coin types that were issued before and after the gold standard was abandoned on 5 August 1914. Also throughout their gold standard revival in 1928-1936. So splitting the Franc would actually create a lot of problems.

Re. the Gold/Papiermark, as far as I am aware, there is no type of coin / banknote that started to be issued before the reform and continued until after. The fact that Goldmarks continued to circulate after 1914 is irrelevant. This can be the case with monetary reforms: old and new currency circulate in parallel for a while.

So unless there are coins or banknotes that span the two currencies, I don't think we should merge them. They give some structure, collectors understand them, and the split is based on a change in the monetary legislation, so there's a good reason for it to be there.

Some examples of German coins that span the start of WWI:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces853.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces2557.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1916.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1915.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces2340.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3412.html
As you can see, even the silver coins continued to be produced, with the 50 pfennig only ceasing in 1919.

Regarding banknotes, these bear the date they were introduced, not the date of issue. However, when one considers how easily 100 and 1000 mark notes dated 1910 (initially worth 35.8 and 358g of gold) can be obtained, it is clear that these continued to be produced and used well into the inflationary period when they lost their value. It was not just a case of old notes continuing to be used, since earlier dates are much scarcer. Also note that no new 100 mark notes were produced until 1920 and no new 1000 mark notes were produced until 1922.

This is how I have them in my Excel file
Mark (1871–1923)
Rentenmark (1923–1924)
Reichsmark (1924–1948)
Alliierte Militärmark (1944–1948)
Mark der DDR (1948-1989)　　　　　　　　Deutsche Mark (1948–2001)
Deutsche Mark (1948-1964)　　　　　　　　
Mark der Deutschen Notenbank (1964-1967)　
Mark (1967-1990)
Euro (2002-)

Gold-, Papier Mark etc. are just inoffical terms

I agree broadly with this but I do have a few comments. First, what do we do with the later Rentenmark issues, since they were produced until at least 1937 (the last date) and (I suspect) on into WWII? Second, should we split the issues of the Allies from the Reichsmark? I know the name is different but there were coins simply denominated in Mark issued in 1924 and 1925, which we include with the Reichsmark, so the situation is not as clear cut as it might be. Third, do you propose to split the East German issues or does italics not imply a split?

The problem is that nothing is 100% clear cut. The Rentenmark is a currency based on debt (grundchuldgestützt [backed by the land used for agriculture and business] - mortage) from 1923-1948 so it circulated alongside the Reichsmark and wasn't even legal tender in the beginning.
After 1924 only a small amount of coins was minted (1925 and 1929) so this makes the 1924 end not so problematic.
The GDR sub currencies probably don't need to be split, most of the money reforms have bigger influency on law and politic then the physical notes and coins.

Okay, I stand corrected., it does seem to be a problem for some coins. And in this case I agree a merge is justified

would be good to hear what the referee has to say as well

I know patience is a virtue but we seemed to have reached a conclusion several months ago that "Goldmark" and "Papiermark" should be merged and yet nothing has happened since.

Splitting the German section for 1871 to 1948 is long overdue.

The banknotes issued by the States' banks should be transferred to the 'German States' section - as the Pick Specialised catalogue lists them under the various states themselves.

Of course, the Weimar Republic & Third Reich issues need listing on their own, along with the Allied Occupation of Germany.

This also applies to the coins as well.

Aidan.

Fully agree with the split... proposed it here

This proposed at least a split in ruling authoritied... however, I would also gree with a general split as separate issuers :)

Quote: "caesar1990"​Fully agree with the split... proposed it here

​Could we please keep discussion of splits in that other thread and keep this one focused on merging "Goldmark" and "Papiermark"?

haha of course... just wanted to bring this topic forward because it is a bit ignored and in the end related to this one here but I will keep it there sorry!

Now that the ruling authorities are all there for Germany (though not applied to all pages yet), can we sort this issue out? To reiterate, please merge "Goldmark" and "Papiermark" into a single currency. As explained above, there was no currency reform in 1914 and many coin and note issues from before this year continued after it.

I just renamed one of them to just Mark and corrected the date range, so you can request coin/banknote moves.

Moves requested.
Many thanks.