Wrong swaplist

Goodmorning everybody,

I like to complain about something; many times when I am looking somebodies swaplist, I see a coin
whit a rare year or variety. Because I nearly got all the common coins in my collection field, it is always
nice to find a coin you did not own yet. After I make a swaprequest for that particular, rare coin, many time
the outcome is, oh sorry I do not have that year, but another, yes the very common-one which I have already
25 pcs. myself.
My question is: let everybody be very carefull by making a swaplist, I mean click the right year or variety!!
This boring thing I experienced many times. Sorry for my farmers-english.

Your English is much better than my Dutch, even if I were to use Google Translate.

I haven't experienced what you see as much, but I do try to be careful to not select "proof" when I have the regular issue.

Sometimes, when I have 40 of a type of coin, with different years/mintmarks, I want to put them in one group, but I ususally try to pick the most common year, or the last year. I will also put a note, "Various years and mintmarks".

Yes, I agree, This has happened to me more than a few times but I must admit I have been guilty of this mistake myself. Missing a minor detail is sometimes all it takes to misrepresent the coin. Catching the error before it is sent is better than receiving or sending the wrong coin however. My pet peeve is when I'm searching for a specific coin and I finally find somebody who has it, only to find they have "Fake" or "Copy" in the description.

I agree. There are so many coins people list wrong. Very often if I know it is a rare coin, and I see people are willing to swap it, I don't even bother asking, because I know it is a mistake.

The same happens with Rarity Index. People just tag the wrong coins or coins they don't have, and it messes up all the percentages.

It just shows how important it is to document the variants...

I know that most people don't even look at those, hence the wrong assignations, which we suffer from.

Ole

Quote: "yvon"​Goodmorning everybody,
​
​I like to complain about something; many times when I am looking somebodies swaplist, I see a coin
​ whit a rare year or variety. Because I nearly got all the common coins in my collection field, it is always
​ nice to find a coin you did not own yet. After I make a swaprequest for that particular, rare coin, many time
​ the outcome is, oh sorry I do not have that year, but another, yes the very common-one which I have already
​ 25 pcs. myself.
​My question is: let everybody be very carefull by making a swaplist, I mean click the right year or variety!!
​This boring thing I experienced many times. Sorry for my farmers-english.

​I collect by KM type, so I’m not particularly concerned about the year. Therefore I don’t make the effort to note the right year or mintmark in my swap list. Why would I? How does it benefit me to take that extra effort? If someone collects by year/mintmark and after having read my profile bio about collecting by KM type, I would expect them to ask me whether my swap list dates are accurate before selecting any coins. I would suggest if You initiate a swap proposal, you should read the persons bio and determine whether they collect by date too. If not, then it is your responsibility to ask first whether the dates in the swap list are accurate.

Quote: "ashlobo"​
​​I collect by KM type, so I’m not particularly concerned about the year. Therefore I don’t make the effort to note the right year or mintmark in my swap list. Why would I? How does it benefit me to take that extra effort? If someone collects by year/mintmark and after having read my profile bio about collecting by KM type, I would expect them to ask me whether my swap list dates are accurate before selecting any coins. I would suggest if You initiate a swap proposal, you should read the persons bio and determine whether they collect by date too. If not, then it is your responsibility to ask first whether the dates in the swap list are accurate.

​Preach! I've gotten several offers from people that haven't done any homework before submitting the offer. They see something they want and only care about their side of the transaction. Admittedly, I did the same thing when I was new, but now I know to be prepared. It makes things go easier.

(edit vp: inapropriate)

Quote: "MK Ultra"​​Preach! I've gotten several offers from people that haven't done any homework before submitting the offer. They see something they want and only care about their side of the transaction. Admittedly, I did the same thing when I was new, but now I know to be prepared. It makes things go easier.

​
Yes indeed, it’s a learning process and we have to accept every person might have a different way of collecting and therefore prioritizes what’s important information in their swaplist from their perspective. That does not mean of course a date collector won’t be able to swap with a type collector and vice versa. Just have to take a little effort finding out things before going too deep into a swap only to realise it can’t work and then end up wasting each other’s time. That’s not a big ask at all, it just helps set expectations and keeps everyone happy :)

Quote: "ashlobo"​

Quote: "MK Ultra"​​​Preach! I've gotten several offers from people that haven't done any homework before submitting the offer. They see something they want and only care about their side of the transaction. Admittedly, I did the same thing when I was new, but now I know to be prepared. It makes things go easier.

​​
​Yes indeed, it’s a learning process and we have to accept every person might have a different way of collecting and therefore prioritizes what’s important information in their swaplist from their perspective. That does not mean of course a date collector won’t be able to swap with a type collector and vice versa. Just have to take a little effort finding out things before going too deep into a swap only to realise it can’t work and then end up wasting each other’s time. That’s not a big ask at all, it just helps set expectations and keeps everyone happy :)

​Indeed and for this reason you (and everybody) should mark your coins on the right way, that is actually the only way.

Quote: "yvon"​
​​Indeed and for this reason you (and everybody) should mark your coins on the right way, that is actually the only way.

​well, I offered another perspective and a solution. Most of us are getting along swimmingly without marking the coins the ‘right’ way as you put it. So you can either deal with it or continue to pull teeth because it is obviously not the ‘only’ way for the majority on Numista

Nonetheless, I still wish you well on your collecting journey through 2020 and beyond

Quote: "ashlobo"​

Quote: "yvon"​
​​​Indeed and for this reason you (and everybody) should mark your coins on the right way, that is actually the only way.

​​well, I offered another perspective and a solution. Most of us are getting along swimmingly without marking the coins the ‘right’ way as you put it. So you can either deal with it or continue to pull teeth because it is obviously not the ‘only’ way for the majority on Numista
​
​Nonetheless, I still wish you well on your collecting journey through 2020 and beyond

​If a million people say 2 x 2 = 5, it is still nonsens. But everybody should do it on the way he/she likes.
I made my point. I wish you also nice collecting, on the way you prefer...

Quote: "ashlobo"​

Quote: "yvon"​
​​​Indeed and for this reason you (and everybody) should mark your coins on the right way, that is actually the only way.

​​well, I offered another perspective and a solution. Most of us are getting along swimmingly without marking the coins the ‘right’ way as you put it. So you can either deal with it or continue to pull teeth because it is obviously not the ‘only’ way for the majority on Numista
​
​Nonetheless, I still wish you well on your collecting journey through 2020 and beyond

​I was wondering who "owns" those rare years? If you open coins of Ukraine in your collection, you can see that you "own" 1992 1 kopiyka with thin central blade & 1992 2 kopiykas, which are extremely rare, and I can bet no one on Numista has them. But it disrupts the Numista "frequency percentages". And I wasted my time asking for people who put on a swap list 1992 thin trident. I asked 10 people just to hear, sorry, it was an error, so I did not bother myself to ask other people.

Quote: "iiruig"​

Quote: "ashlobo"​
​

Quote: "yvon"​
​​​​Indeed and for this reason you (and everybody) should mark your coins on the right way, that is actually the only way.

​​​well, I offered another perspective and a solution. Most of us are getting along swimmingly without marking the coins the ‘right’ way as you put it. So you can either deal with it or continue to pull teeth because it is obviously not the ‘only’ way for the majority on Numista
​​
​​Nonetheless, I still wish you well on your collecting journey through 2020 and beyond

​​I was wondering who "owns" those rare years? If you open coins of Ukraine in your collection, you can see that you "own" 1992 1 kopiyka with thin central blade & 1992 2 kopiykas, which are extremely rare, and I can bet no one on Numista has them. But it disrupts the Numista "frequency percentages". And I wasted my time asking for people who put on a swap list 1992 thin trident. I asked 10 people just to hear, sorry, it was an error, so I did not bother myself to ask other people.

​Yes Sir,

I don't even have them!

But these, yes:









Ole

Quote ​​I was wondering who "owns" those rare years? If you open coins of Ukraine in your collection, you can see that you "own" 1992 1 kopiyka with thin central blade & 1992 2 kopiykas, which are extremely rare, and I can bet no one on Numista has them. But it disrupts the Numista "frequency percentages". And I wasted my time asking for people who put on a swap list 1992 thin trident. I asked 10 people just to hear, sorry, it was an error, so I did not bother myself to ask other people.

I haven’t gone to check if you are referring very specifically to my collection. But if you are, for me as long as it’s the right KM, it doesn’t matter to me which date/mintmark i selected. For my own collection, I simply mark the top or bottom date because it’s easy to go through Numista when I have to check. I don’t use the frequency percentages or rarity or price information provided by Numista. ​I regard it as a nuisance factor. But I see your point that it messes up those added informations you rely on. The ideal option would be if Numista could build functionality to opt-in or out of these things, but alas, I imagine that needlessly complicates things for Xavier and the team for seemingly little benefit to most. However, you can always bring it up in the Numista website forum and perhaps if enough members think it is worth considering, something may come of it eventually

I agree that Numista (or, more precisely, some entries of the catalogue) have the shortcoming that it is mandatory to mark the exact variety of a coin that you own. But what to do if I'm unable to distinguish them? I pick a random variety.

Try to look in the comments, quite often you'll find the varieties documented....

Ole

Quote: "Sjoelund"​Try to look in the comments, quite often you'll find the varieties documented....
​
​Ole

​Sure, but sometimes the differences are just too subtle (for me), especially when I don't own multiple coins to compare, even if I'm willing to do that.
And what about even more impatient users? Why ignore them?
It would be better to make the input of the exact variety nonmandatory.

Quote: "numinis"​

Quote: "Sjoelund"​Try to look in the comments, quite often you'll find the varieties documented....
​​
​​Ole

​​Sure, but sometimes the differences are just to subtle (for me), especially when I don't own multiple coins to compare, even if I'm willing to do that.
​And what about even more impatient users? Why ignore them?
​It would be better to make the input of the exact variety nonmandatory.

​Sure, sometimes it is hard to distinguish a variety. In this case you just need to choose the variety or year with the highest percentage (e.g. 78%), but not the year or variety that says 0.9%, rare.

Quote: "iiruig"​

Quote: "numinis"​
​

Quote: "Sjoelund"​Try to look in the comments, quite often you'll find the varieties documented....
​​​
​​​Ole

​​​Sure, but sometimes the differences are just to subtle (for me), especially when I don't own multiple coins to compare, even if I'm willing to do that.
​​And what about even more impatient users? Why ignore them?
​​It would be better to make the input of the exact variety nonmandatory.

​​Sure, sometimes it is hard to distinguish a variety. In this case you just need to choose the variety or year with the highest percentage (e.g. 78%), but not the year or variety that says 0.9%, rare.

​I agree with this. About a rare variety; I would think, it is a nice part of the coin-collecting hobby
to figure out what you exactly got. Or maybe for some people it is only the quantity what counts...

Here's what I meant. When adding a coin to your collection in uCoin, you can select "without variety" or specify the exact variety if you know it. This is better in terms of usability, because the user has a choice whether (s)he wants to be precise or not. For example, if I want to add German 1 eurocent coin, I can select between five mintmarks and the option "without variety":

Quote: "numinis"​Here's what I meant. When adding a coin to your collection in uCoin, you can select "without variety" or specify the exact variety if you know it. This is better in terms of usability, because the user has a choice whether (s)he wants to be precise or not. For example, if I want to add German 1 eurocent coin, I can select between five mintmarks and the option "without variety":
​

​This is obviously on the year level, but somebody even more lazy would ask for just the sub type level. The rather lazy one would ask for just the main type type and the person really not wanting to collect will chose only the country level..... Each one collects like he wants, BUT I WOULD NEVER SWAP with one of those persons.... this should marked in the persons profile: I do NOT know what I have, but I have it anyway

Ole

Quote: "Sjoelund"​

Quote: "numinis"​Here's what I meant. When adding a coin to your collection in uCoin, you can select "without variety" or specify the exact variety if you know it. This is better in terms of usability, because the user has a choice whether (s)he wants to be precise or not. For example, if I want to add German 1 eurocent coin, I can select between five mintmarks and the option "without variety":
​​

​​This is obviously on the year level, but somebody even more lazy would ask for just the sub type level. The rather lazy one would ask for just the main type type and the person really not wanting to collect will chose only the country level..... Each one collects like he wants, BUT I WOULD NEVER SWAP with one of those persons.... this should marked in the persons profile: I do NOT know what I have, but I have it anyway
​
​Ole

​100% true!!!

Quote: "yvon"​

Quote: "Sjoelund"​
​

Quote: "numinis"​Here's what I meant. When adding a coin to your collection in uCoin, you can select "without variety" or specify the exact variety if you know it. This is better in terms of usability, because the user has a choice whether (s)he wants to be precise or not. For example, if I want to add German 1 eurocent coin, I can select between five mintmarks and the option "without variety":
​​​

​​​This is obviously on the year level, but somebody even more lazy would ask for just the sub type level. The rather lazy one would ask for just the main type type and the person really not wanting to collect will chose only the country level..... Each one collects like he wants, BUT I WOULD NEVER SWAP with one of those persons.... this should be marked in the persons profile: I do NOT know what I have, but I have it anyway
​​
​​Ole

​​100% true!!!

​

I don't collect by variety, so I don't look for all the varieties. If I happen to get two coins of the same type, it is extremely likely - unless the variety is blatantly obvious - that I am not going to list it. Could this affect my swaps, yes. But I can't apologize for that. There are too many coins on my wish list to then subdivide that list into the varieties.

Quote: "JRo69"​I don't collect by variety, so I don't look for all the varieties. If I happen to get two coins of the same type, it is extremely likely - unless the variety is blatantly obvious - that I am not going to list it. Could this affect my swaps, yes. But I can't apologize for that. There are too many coins on my wish list to then subdivide that list into the varieties.

​but it's NOT your wish list we talk about here, but your doubles list....

Ole

Quote: "Sjoelund"​

Quote: "numinis"​Here's what I meant. When adding a coin to your collection in uCoin, you can select "without variety" or specify the exact variety if you know it. This is better in terms of usability, because the user has a choice whether (s)he wants to be precise or not. For example, if I want to add German 1 eurocent coin, I can select between five mintmarks and the option "without variety":
​​

​​This is obviously on the year level, but somebody even more lazy would ask for just the sub type level. The rather lazy one would ask for just the main type type and the person really not wanting to collect will chose only the country level..... Each one collects like he wants, BUT I WOULD NEVER SWAP with one of those persons.... this should marked in the persons profile: I do NOT know what I have, but I have it anyway
​
​Ole

​come now ole, just because you collect by year/mintmark and therefore mark your list accordingly, doesn’t mean that just because others do not do so they are “lazy”. There is simply no ROI on taking the time to constantly maintain an accurate swap list by date/mintmark given that more often than not, members here mostly collect by KM type.
And you did swap with me not once, but a couple times ;)

we have to take a step back and remember this is a hobby and we should all celebrate our common interest in coins. Going around and accusing people being lazy or talking down to others for such a seemingly trifle thing is simply not productive imo

Quote: "ashlobo"​

Quote: "Sjoelund"​
​

Quote: "numinis"​Here's what I meant. When adding a coin to your collection in uCoin, you can select "without variety" or specify the exact variety if you know it. This is better in terms of usability, because the user has a choice whether (s)he wants to be precise or not. For example, if I want to add German 1 eurocent coin, I can select between five mintmarks and the option "without variety":
​​​

​​​This is obviously on the year level, but somebody even more lazy would ask for just the sub type level. The rather lazy one would ask for just the main type type and the person really not wanting to collect will chose only the country level..... Each one collects like he wants, BUT I WOULD NEVER SWAP with one of those persons.... this should marked in the persons profile: I do NOT know what I have, but I have it anyway
​​
​​Ole

​​come now ole, just because you collect by year/mintmark and therefore mark your list accordingly, doesn’t mean that just because others do not do so they are “lazy”. There is simply no ROI on taking the time to constantly maintain an accurate swap list by date/mintmark given that more often than not, members here mostly collect by KM type.
​And you did swap with me not once, but a couple times ;)
​
​we have to take a step back and remember this is a hobby and we should all celebrate our common interest in coins. Going around and accusing people being lazy or talking down to others for such a seemingly trifle thing is simply not productive imo

​I must admit I was surprised to see you starting this topic, since in none of our swaps your coins were wrongly indicated, even the Indian ones were the proper mints I think we both understand what the other says? I just got carried away in the beauty of the moment being able to simplify everything down to the strict minimum.... Sorry, but it wasn't meant any other way.

Can we still have another beer next time you come to Paris?

Ole

Quote: "Sjoelund"​
​​I must admit I was surprised to see you starting this topic, since in none of our swaps your coins were wrongly indicated, even the Indian ones were the proper mints I think we both understand what the other says? I just got carried away in the beauty of the moment being able to simplify everything down to the strict minimum.... Sorry, but it wasn't meant any other way.
​
​Can we still have another beer next time you come to Paris?
​
​Ole

I try to update the swap list from time to time, but invariably after a few exchanges, it’s out of whack again and it will be months before I ever get back to updating it properly.

I totally understand the frustration of course for a date/mintmark collector, but I was merely offering a different perspective from the OP.

Going by something you mentioned in the previous posts, it might worth putting a suggesting to the admins if they can introduce a field in the members profile to indicate whether the person is a type/date/mintmark collector. I can’t see why that would not be doable!

And of course I very much regard you as an absolutely convivial person, so I would absolutely have another beer with you ;). I’m heading to UK in May for vacations assuming everything settles down. I might just do a day trip to Paris if I can get a decent priced ticket on the Chunnel.

Quote: "Sjoelund"​

Quote: "JRo69"​I don't collect by variety, so I don't look for all the varieties. If I happen to get two coins of the same type, it is extremely likely - unless the variety is blatantly obvious - that I am not going to list it. Could this affect my swaps, yes. But I can't apologize for that. There are too many coins on my wish list to then subdivide that list into the varieties.

​​but it's NOT your wish list we talk about here, but your doubles list....
​
​Ole

​It applies to my doubles list too. If I have a double to swap, I am not going to be terribly concerned over it's variant, unless a potential trade partner points it out to me. I wonder if I am the exception or the rule

Quote: "JRo69"​

Quote: "Sjoelund"​
​

Quote: "JRo69"​I don't collect by variety, so I don't look for all the varieties. If I happen to get two coins of the same type, it is extremely likely - unless the variety is blatantly obvious - that I am not going to list it. Could this affect my swaps, yes. But I can't apologize for that. There are too many coins on my wish list to then subdivide that list into the varieties.

​​​but it's NOT your wish list we talk about here, but your doubles list....
​​
​​Ole

​​It applies to my doubles list too. If I have a double to swap, I am not going to be terribly concerned over it's variant, unless a potential trade partner points it out to me. I wonder if I am the exception or the rule
​

​No, your're just doing things the proper way, normally I check with my partner and if there is a documentation available, I send it to him to make the check easier....

Ole

It was not my intention when I started this topic, but gradually I learn, there exists (at least)
2types of coincollectors; those with a shoebox filled whit holyday-leftovers and
the people who try to make a decent, scientific correct, coin-collection....

In France, we're confined at home for at least the next couple of weeks.... gives me plenty of time to document more variants, which even I do NOT want to see as year lines

I note those variants in the comments of the coins in my collection, and if I see somebody with that coin, yes, I quite often use my excel inventory against swap lists in Numista, I'll send the owner the documentation and ask which of the variants it might be. Normally that works fine

As we ALL have said, everybody is the owner of his own collection and of course of his doubles.

Xavier, please try to think about the following check boxes in the profile like this for the organization of the doubles:
by Country (so don't believe in my types, nor the sub types, nor the years, nor the mints, nor the varieties)
by Country & type (so don't believe in my sub types, nor the years, nor the mints, nor the variants)
by country & type & sub type (so don't believe in my years, nor the mints, nor the variants)
by country & type & sub type & year (so don't believe in my mints, nor the variants)
by country & type & sub type & year & mint (so don't believe in my variants)
by country & type & sub type & year & mint & variants (believe in everything, if you can?)

Ole

Quote: "Sjoelund"​
​​This is obviously on the year level, but somebody even more lazy would ask for just the sub type level. The rather lazy one would ask for just the main type type and the person really not wanting to collect will chose only the country level..... Each one collects like he wants, BUT I WOULD NEVER SWAP with one of those persons.... this should marked in the persons profile: I do NOT know what I have, but I have it anyway
​

​
Sounds like a slippery slope argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
The application design should target an average user. I agree that it is not difficult to distinguish the mintmarks in German eurocents. But I was speaking about varieties which are harder to distinguish, such as "Kleines Münzbild", "with different leaf" and so on. Eurocents are just an example and perhaps it sounds comical, because they are cheap and abundant. But how about registering the varieties of silver Rupees? Not everyone can allow oneself the luxury of buying a bag of Rupees just in order to inspect them with a microscope and to be clear which variety should be marked as "owned" in the catalogue.

Quote: "numinis"​

Quote: "Sjoelund"​
​​​This is obviously on the year level, but somebody even more lazy would ask for just the sub type level. The rather lazy one would ask for just the main type type and the person really not wanting to collect will chose only the country level..... Each one collects like he wants, BUT I WOULD NEVER SWAP with one of those persons.... this should marked in the persons profile: I do NOT know what I have, but I have it anyway
​​

​​
​Sounds like a slippery slope argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
​The application design should target an average user. I agree that it is not difficult to distinguish the mintmarks in German eurocents. But I was speaking about varieties which are harder to distinguish, such as "Kleines Münzbild", "with different leaf" and so on. Eurocents are just an example and perhaps it sounds comical, because they are cheap and abundant. But how about registering the varieties of silver Rupees? Not everyone can allow oneself the luxury of buying a bag of Rupees just in order to inspect them with a microscope and to be clear which variety should be marked as "owned" in the catalogue.

​You're right,

but if from your profile I can see, that your doubles are not pretending to be precise to a certain level, I'm already forewarned. It makes it easier to decide if it's worth to ask for a swap, or simply not do it!

Ole

Quote: "Sjoelund"​Xavier, please try to think about the following check boxes in the profile like this for the organization of the doubles:
​by Country (so don't believe in my types, nor the sub types, nor the years, nor the mints, nor the varieties)
​by Country & type (so don't believe in my sub types, nor the years, nor the mints, nor the variants)
​by country & type & sub type (so don't believe in my years, nor the mints, nor the variants)
​by country & type & sub type & year (so don't believe in my mints, nor the variants)
​by country & type & sub type & year & mint (so don't believe in my variants)
​by country & type & sub type & year & mint & variants (believe in everything, if you can?)
​​

But there are users which collect some countries/issuers/periods by year but others by type.

I am not sure that forcing users to select a variant and then having them ticking the box "don't believe in the variants I selected" is the best approach. I rather agree with the idea for users to be able not to choose a date or a variant. You could select a date for some coins and select no date when the date is not readable or you just dont't care about the date. Then we could have swap list with no year at all, removing any ambiguity.
The idea is actually already tracked here: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic82347.html

Quote: "Xavier"​The idea is actually already tracked here: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic82347.html
​

​The link does not work.

The topic was on a private section of the forum. I moved it so you should be able to see it now.

Update: Today it happend again. I got a letter from a swappartner. We agreed on some coins, all
were there in nice condition, but the one I was mainly after; a simple common coin, what exists
in magnetic and non-magnetic, I got the one who is magnetic and we agreed on the NON-magnetic one,
how annoying!!! How difficult is it to take a magnet and fill the right box?? If you ask in a shop
for toiletpaper, will you accept sandpaper???