Goodbye

Well guys,

I am Andy289 and I am here to say goodbye to most of you I've been in contact in last years. I write you from another account because I was banned by the overzealous moderator VieillePile for not complying with Numista selling rules. This is what he said I am guilty of:

1. Not having swaps in last 12 months
Even if I have like 50 swaps, all rated 5 stars and made with reputable members.

2. Posting more than 1 post per week
Due to some issues I needed to sell a large lot of coins from my collection so I decided to not make a single thread but to split all lots by continents in 4 different threads. This because rarely someone want to buy an entire collection but instead coins from some missing countries or regions.

As far as I understood it would have been fine to create a single thread with hundreds of coins but keeping them organized by regions somehow made me a coin dealer on Numista, even if I don't remember selling anything else here before in more than 6 years. I won't even talk about my contribution in this community, most of you are aware of that.

Does anyone else see what these two rules are trying to prevent? I am here for selling coin? No. Did I abused Numista somehow? No. But does this even matter? The answer is still no.

Now I understand why so many valuable members left this forum and why those who remain prefere just to read and not being involved.

Greetings to all my friends here and grow up Numista team!

Hello.
Andy, sorry to read it. I believe that this is a misunderstanding. Perhaps, our respected moderator will review his position. (Perhaps even he will apologize for being too strict).
But is it worth leaving the community because of a misunderstanding? You are respected even for your frequent criticism of the administration (and perhaps, not unfounded). Please put off this hasty decision for a while.
I hope that even the situation that forces you to sell your collection is still not so difficult. In any case: I wish you success.
Thank you.

In my admittedly limited experience with Numista, I've seen the moderators to be very fair and reasonable. I would assume that if a mistake was made on their end, a polite message to the appropriate mod would clear things up if necessary.

Perhaps the rules for selling and posting in quantity should be further clarified. Any time strangers come together over the internet there are bound to be miscommunications. :-)

EDIT: Sales Policy on Numista does state One post per week.
I did notice Andy's sale posts but wasn't bothered by them. There really isn't a better way to organize so many different types for sale with photos and so forth all into one post. Surely the rules aren't meant to limit you to selling one coin per week.

Gentlemen,

I allow myself to answer, having being mentionned.

@ Andy: You have been informed by PM that your sales were breaching the policy, and that this breach had been reported. I informed you you were therefore banned for 10 days, which is below the policy (30 days) due to your ancient membership and reputation. You answered by PM rudely. I then banned you for the regular 30 days. You choose to quit, this is your choice, but could be considered as over-reactive.

@ Muenzenhamster: sad to note that you are still in that not so constructive approach.

This thread diverting from the policies, I lock it.

For the sake of clarity, I remind the policy:

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic70991.html

Hello,

sorry to hear this but I am here unlocking this thread to back up VieillePile on his decisions.

@Andy288: The point is not related to your contribution to Numista community that I guess many acknowledge. Policy points are not mutually exclusive and all need to be respected (not just one of them). Problems you may face are unfortunate but this does not allow to breach the policy in place.

The sale policy was written for good reasons and came both at admin request AND members requests.

I can't help myself but to conclude with your own sentence "grow up". Let's do it all together, and come back after your ban...otherwise who will criticize us

Andy's problem seems to be more the attitude of the admins rather than the fact the sales were banned and whenever there is an issue with an admin and accusations of heavy handedness or personal bias it always seems to be the same couple that are named.

If Admins are seen to be biased towards some members, seen as heavy handed or rude in their dealings, then you can't blame members for leaving the site or staying away from the forums. We have lost a lot of wisdom and insight from some of the decent members who are staying away from the forums because of the politics and dramas.

Quote: "neilithicman"​Andy's problem seems to be more the attitude of the admins rather than the fact the sales were banned and whenever there is an issue with an admin and accusations of heavy handedness or personal bias it always seems to be the same couple that are named.
​
​If Admins are seen to be biased towards some members, seen as heavy handed or rude in their dealings, then you can't blame members for leaving the site or staying away from the forums. We have lost a lot of wisdom and insight from some of the decent members who are staying away from the forums because of the politics and dramas.

I don't get the point of admin here but you can name him, I won't be offended .

Let's not start a drama as you say, the point of my message above is rather that the case is purely about moderation (posts are reported by members for moderation) and not related to Andy's contribution that, again, I'm sure many will acknowledge.

@VieillePile please post our conversation and let all see my rudeness

Just because I asked him to explain me why I was banned I am considered rude. He threw in my face the sales policies like in all those years here I abused the forum and now it was too much. Actually it's the first time when I really sold something here. I think the rules has been made to prevent abuses from members that are here just to sell coins and I don't think it's my case since I am here for so many years and my main interest was to help and learn from this community.

Anyway if you really want to keep all rules by the book, there is a statement that for violating sales policy the ban is 30 days and I am banned just 10 days. Don't you see yet where the problem is with you guys? It's called common sense. You have rules for anything but you miss the purpose.

He could send me a PM to let me know that I hurt the community with my actions but of course it was more handy to ban me and then send a PM: hey abuser, I banned you

I know it won't happen because the lack of transparency, but I would like to know what Numista members reported me for this abuse (he claimed that I was reported by other members). I have doubts that anyone else was disturbed by my threads except the overzealous moderator.

Quote: "pejounet"​I don't get the point of admin here but you can name him, I won't be offended .
​

​Mainly yourself and VieillePile but mostly VieillePile. All the threads I have seen when people are complaining about moderators it is one of the two of you that are named.

I don't see why the French mods should even be on these forums anyway. Do the English mods go on the French forums locking threads and banning people? Why not let the French mods patrol the French forums and Zak and Oggy patrol the English forums. Then you might not get the claims of French bias.

Neil has a good point. I never saw anyone complaining about ZacUK being disrespectful or abusive. Maybe you can learn something from him being in the same team.

I won't get into this language debate, that is not related to this case. But if you want us to talk through PMs or separate thread no problem, I'm always up for a good discussion.

@Andy: to your question, the posts were reported and no I won't give names or indications.

With this hesitation, probably it was someone from Numista team.
Forgive my lack of trust but you had the chance to show some transparency. I didn't asked their personal information so it has nothing to do with GDPR, I won't retaliate, I won't even PM them. It's their choice to report my threads and I can respect that.

Maybe some of those reporters has some more decency and courage to admit here that they report my threads, but I doubt someone will show up.

That has nothing to do with transparency or GDPR or decency or courage: you are asking for "denouncement" and replied that no I won't "denounce". That's the purpose of anonymous reporting or private messages...

Quote: "pejounet"​I won't get into this language debate, that is not related to this case. But if you want us to talk through PMs or separate thread no problem, I'm always up for a good discussion.

​No, this is an important public discussion, and there is no need to lock this off because I am in no way being abusive and this is a "free discussion" forum.

I have seen several threads in the past where Oggy or Zak have tried to do their job and both you and VieillePile have stepped on their toes to try and put your 2 cents worth in. One thread from a few months ago really illustrates what the problem is, and the reason why people feel that the administrators are biased. I can't remember the exact thread, but it was one of the numerous threads about a certain female French member who seems to be at the heart of most of the dramas on this site.

Oggy had the situation well in hand. He had deleted the abusive comments and locked off the thread. Then VieillePile came in and unlocked the thread so he could add his own personal comments on the matter. Oggy locked the thread again and you unlocked it to add your comments, Oggy locked it off again and then VieillePile unlocked it to add more comments. After several attempts to lock it Oggy gave up and left It open. Oggy later showed me personal messages from the female member bragging that she had called VieillePile in as her pet moderator.

What is the point in having English moderators if they can be over-ridden by French mods? That is why there is a perception that the French mods are biased and arrogant. If you stick to the French forum and leave the moderation of the English forums to the English mods then there would be no problems.

I think I started 6 threads in "Swaps and trades" in 6 years and this is seen as being abusive and has nothing to do with decency?

You should have been moderators not robots. You should take decisions based on facts not on moods. If someone report a post this doesn't automatically mean it is abusive. In this case I can write a script that can replace the entire Numista team. As I told you already, you made faulty rules when you stated that people who doesn't make swaps on Numista are here for selling coins and you don't even consider that here might be people who are not here neither for swaps nor for sales and then apply these rules with no discrimination. That's ignorance and lack of insight. Also I don't expect you to admit your mistakes.

I agree, the guidelines should be bent under certain circumstances. I sold coins on here without any feedback when I set up this new account after leaving for a year, nobody reported me, I assume because people knew that on my old account I had good feedback. Surely a member who has been on the site for almost 7 years with 100% positive feedback is entitled to make a couple of sales on the site?

@neilithicman: You are mentioning lock off or abuse, that is not. Please read my point above, I stick to it: "not related to this case...through PMs or separate thread no problem"... Should there be a lock off, why would have I opened back the thread to keep the discussion on?

@Andy288: "you made faulty rules when you stated that people who doesn't make swaps on Numista are here for selling coins": wrong, nothing implies in the rule that if you don't swap you are here to sell, it just means what it means - if you want to sell you first need to swap a minimum beforehand because Numista is a swap platform at first. If you don't swap nor sell, then you don't swap or sell and the policy doesn't apply.

Quote: "pejounet" if you want to sell you first need to swap a minimum beforehand because Numista is a swap platform at first.

​This statement makes you a robot. I have perfect 50 swaps, I was daily active on forum and you think a calibration swap will make me eligible and trustworthy for selling coins. This is unbelievable. You are the right person to write more rules like the one above.

He is talking about the intention of the rules.

Why were the rules established?

Because we had issues with scammers creating new accounts, offering coins for sale, ripping people off and then creating a new account.

That is why the guidelines about having minimum feedback and minimum time for an account to be established. Surely the guidelines for selling can be bent for a long standing member who has nothing but positive feedback who has a genuine reason for needing to establish separate sales threads. I hop you can see fit to remove the ban and allow these threads.

Quote: "Andy288"​

Quote: "pejounet" if you want to sell you first need to swap a minimum beforehand because Numista is a swap platform at first.
​
​

​​This statement makes you a robot. I have perfect 50 swaps, I was daily active on forum and you think a calibration swap will make me eligible and trustworthy for selling coins. This is unbelievable. You are the right person to write more rules like the one above.

You surely give me too much credit...​back when the rule was written, the related criteria of a minimum number of recent swaps came out as idea/request from discussions by members..

I don't need the ban to be removed, I'm fine with this. It's just about their attitude and failure to understand the context of their own rules.

Quote: "pejounet"​

Quote: "Andy288"​
​

Quote: "pejounet" if you want to sell you first need to swap a minimum beforehand because Numista is a swap platform at first.
​​
​​

​​​This statement makes you a robot. I have perfect 50 swaps, I was daily active on forum and you think a calibration swap will make me eligible and trustworthy for selling coins. This is unbelievable. You are the right person to write more rules like the one above.

​You surely give me too much credit...​back when the rule was written, the related criteria of a minimum number of recent swaps came out as idea/request from discussions by members..

​But he meets the criteria, the criteria is 5 perfect swaps, he has 50, surely he should not be penalized simply because he took a hiatus from swapping?

Quote: "pejounet"​​You surely give me too much credit...​back when the rule was written, the related criteria of a minimum number of recent swaps came out as idea/request from discussions by members..

​
When I was new on this forum I knew I have to gain some trust because I was new. This meant that I had to send coins first and so on. I can understand why you made some rules and why calibration swaps should be done and what they try to prevent but don't pretend this to be a flawless rule. Basically you and other Numista team members point your finger at me and say: yoo dude, you don't seems to be very trustworthy, make a damn calibration swap so we can be sure about your intentions. It's funny that you cannot see how absurd your are to apply such a rule without discrimination.

Quote: "neilithicman"​

Quote: "pejounet"​
​

Quote: "Andy288"​
​​
​

Quote: "pejounet" if you want to sell you first need to swap a minimum beforehand because Numista is a swap platform at first.
​​​
​​​

​​​​This statement makes you a robot. I have perfect 50 swaps, I was daily active on forum and you think a calibration swap will make me eligible and trustworthy for selling coins. This is unbelievable. You are the right person to write more rules like the one above.

​​You surely give me too much credit...​back when the rule was written, the related criteria of a minimum number of recent swaps came out as idea/request from discussions by members..

​​But he meets the criteria, the criteria is 5 perfect swaps, he has 50, surely he should not be penalized simply because he took a hiatus from swapping?

​Criteria is not 5, it is "12 swaps rated 10/10 in the past 12 consecutive months".

Criteria was brought up and written following discussions to avoid mainly 3 cases:
1. professioal sellers/shops
2. new member selling upon joining
3. having people not swapping for some time (here 3 years) and come back selling directly.

Unfortunately, we are here in case 3.

Sidenote, we should here also care about fairness: previous similar cases happened (not a million I reckon, I have 3 in mind on my side but can't talk for other moderators) and posts were deleted with a ban.

Quote: "pejounet"​​​Criteria is not 5, it is "12 swaps rated 10/10 in the past 12 consecutive months".
​
​Criteria was brought up and written following discussions to avoid mainly 3 cases:
​1. professioal sellers/shops
​2. new member selling upon joining
​3. having people not swapping for some time (here 3 years) and come back selling directly.
​
​Unfortunately, we are here in case 3.
​
​Sidenote, we should here also care about fairness: previous similar cases happened (not a million I reckon, I have 3 in mind on my side but can't talk for other moderators) and posts were deleted with a ban.

​Really? Just take a fast look in "Coin identifications and valuations" and other section and tell me again I came back on Numista for selling coins. I've been more active than many referees. You should be ashamed by what you just said.

Quote: "Andy288"​

Quote: "pejounet"​​You surely give me too much credit...​back when the rule was written, the related criteria of a minimum number of recent swaps came out as idea/request from discussions by members..
​
​

​​
​When I was new on this forum I knew I have to gain some trust because I was new. This meant that I had to send coins first and so on. I can understand why you made some rules and why calibration swaps should be done and what they try to prevent but don't pretend this to be a flawless rule. Basically you and other Numista team members point your finger at me and say: yoo dude, you don't seems to be very trustworthy, make a damn calibration swap so we can be sure about your intentions. It's funny that you cannot see how absurd your are to apply such a rule without discrimination.

​I am not pointing at you, I'm explaining that the criteria we are discussing is there from the beginning for specific reasons stated in the above reply.
Nothing to do with discrimination but fairness, same rule for everybody including moderators and myself of course.

Quote: "neilithicman "I don't see why the French mods should even be on these forums anyway. Do the English mods go on the French forums locking threads and banning people? Why not let the French mods patrol the French forums and Zak and Oggy patrol the English forums. Then you might not get the claims of French bias.

Hummm... the guidelines are the same for both parts of the forum so I don't know why there is a question of nationalities on this trade.
You can like or dislike whoever you want neilithicman, but you are only speaking about a French moderator and a Quebecer administrator. I guess you don't like some English users too, so could please leave the French thing outside this discussion ?
As a French user I must admit it's not really pleasant to read this kind of comment, especially when we spend time to build the catalog on both languages and when we help people with their unidentified coins on both sides of the website.

Quote: "Andy288"​

Quote: "pejounet"​​​Criteria is not 5, it is "12 swaps rated 10/10 in the past 12 consecutive months".
​​
​​Criteria was brought up and written following discussions to avoid mainly 3 cases:
​​1. professioal sellers/shops
​​2. new member selling upon joining
​​3. having people not swapping for some time (here 3 years) and come back selling directly.
​​
​​Unfortunately, we are here in case 3.
​​
​​Sidenote, we should here also care about fairness: previous similar cases happened (not a million I reckon, I have 3 in mind on my side but can't talk for other moderators) and posts were deleted with a ban.

​​Really? Just take a fast look in "Coin identifications and valuations" and other section and tell me again I came back on Numista for selling coins. I've been more active than many referees. You should be ashamed by what you just said.
​

​I'm not saying you just came back to sell...I'm explaining the reasons behind the criteria and why the policy was written.

Given these above-mentioned reasons behind the criteria, the present case relates to the third point i.e. no swap for a long period of 3 years then posting on the forum for a sale not building back up the 12 swaps criteria as per rule.

We all know why the policy was written but the problem is that is not used to prevent what was intended for. What do you think Cyrillius talked about when he said that in a previous post?

Quote: "Cyrillius"​I believe that this is a misunderstanding. Perhaps, our respected moderator will review his position. (Perhaps even he will apologize for being too strict).

​

Maybe it would be understandable if the member had been completely inactive, but he has been active on the forums so there should not have been the heavy handedness in banning him and removing his posts.

By the way, following the logic principles how would you evaluate these affirmations?

Quotehaving people not swapping for some time (here 3 years) and come back selling directly

QuoteI'm not saying you just came back to sell

Principle of logic says when you put AND between two statements (or expressions) they must be both true for result to be true and in your next statement you just said that one statement above is false so the result will be false so we are not in case 3 also.

Speaking about the situation, I must agree that the ban was a bit harsh in this case but I admit I don't know what is the tolerance policy on the forum : it's possible that some moderators are maybe a bit less patient than others too (again, it has nothing to do with the nationality ).

Anyway, for me it would have been more efficient to delete the selling posts on the forum, then PM the user (Andy288 in this case) to explain the situation and quoting which parts of the rules have been violated before adding what sanctions will occur in case of recidivism (= 30 days ban). Usualy there is no need to ban at this stage as the user may have been unaware of those rules.

Most of the time users don't really like to to be lectured but after a short conversation in PM, the moderators can do the change (just need to keep calm and explain how and why those rules have been made).

Prevention is often the best way to maintain the order while keeping a friendly environment

Quote: "Cycnos"​

Quote: "neilithicman "I don't see why the French mods should even be on these forums anyway. Do the English mods go on the French forums locking threads and banning people? Why not let the French mods patrol the French forums and Zak and Oggy patrol the English forums. Then you might not get the claims of French bias.

​
​Hummm... the guidelines are the same for both parts of the forum so I don't know why there is a question of nationalities on this trade.
​You can like or dislike whoever you want neilithicman, but you are only speaking about a French moderator and a Quebecer administrator. I guess you don't like some English users too, so could please leave the French thing outside this discussion ?
​As a French user I must admit it's not really pleasant to read this kind of comment, especially when we spend time to build the catalog on both languages and when we help people with their unidentified coins on both sides of the website.

​The issue I have is the French moderators over-riding the work of the English moderators.

It shows a bit of arrogance when the English mods had already done their job by locking off a thread and removed offending posts and then this was undone by the French mods who opened it up and restarted a debate.

@ Andy

No fun and no time to waste in schoolyard issues. No need neither to quote your mails, your posts are self explaining (summed up below).

Either you want to solve an issue, and you behave as an adult, or you want to start an argument and behave like a parent or a kid. Assumptions, attacks, mockeries, overstattements, misinterpretations ...... Not really rethorical figures aiming at solving an issue.

For a deeper understanding, I recommend the following reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

I do not know who you think you are to adress me like you did, but frankly, I am not interested to know.


Quotes from your above posts:

"I was banned by the overzealous moderator VieillePile"
"He threw in my face the sales policies "
" but of course it was more handy to ban me and then send a PM: hey abuser, I banned you "
"I have doubts that anyone else was disturbed by my threads except the overzealous moderator."
With this hesitation, probably it was someone from Numista team. ""
"Forgive my lack of trust but you had the chance to show some transparency"
"Maybe some of those reporters has some more decency and courage to admit here that they report my threads,"
"Maybe some of those reporters has some more decency and courage to admit here that they report my threads,"
"You should take decisions based on facts not on moods."
"In this case I can write a script that can replace the entire Numista team."
" you made faulty rules".
"you don't even consider "
"That's ignorance and lack of insight"
"I don't expect you to admit your mistakes"
"This statement makes you a robot"
"This is unbelievable. You are the right person to write more rules like the one above. "
"It's just about their attitude and failure to understand the context of their own rules."
"Basically you and other Numista team members point your finger at me and say: yoo dude, "
" It's funny that you cannot see how absurd your are to apply such a rule without discrimination."
"You should be ashamed by what you just said"

This must be an epic post for your 1000th post.

QuoteI do not know who you think you are to adress me like you did, but frankly, I am not interested to know.

I'm just telling you the truth, don't be offended.

Quote: "Andy288"​We all know why the policy was written but the problem is that is not used to prevent what was intended for. What do you think Cyrillius talked about when he said that in a previous post?
​​

​​​@Andy288:
1. Then my points above, the rule has an intention and the criteria a fixed "value" that is the same for all.
2. Have another look at the PMs we exchanged in parallel to this thread, you'll review that I point the same fact: rule is not the faulty cause, communications on both sides might be.
3. Please keep in mind that I unlocked the topic on purpose for discussion and communication.
4. Principle of logic also says: criteria is not met, policy is applied...let's not get back to this false arguments and both move on with other topics for the discussion.

@neilithicman: as I mentioned, it is about fairness. Previous cases happened and there were no dedicated thread for it (cf. my sentence above mentioning communications).
As you mentioned some people left, and some people also came back. Indeed not related to same case but I think I'm not wrong in saying you left for some time and came back afterwards. As told to Andy, I hope he won't left or if he chooses to leave that he will come back. I stick to it.

Note for the removed posts: I moved the posts to Trash forum, not because of the content, but because they are empty or only having a mention SOLD. As part of moderation, I (and I'm pretty sure other moderators do so too) regularly delete or move posts empty or solved.

I notice neither you nor Vieille have addressed the issue I raised about you over-riding the English moderator on the English forum by unlocking threads that had already been locked and cleaned up. Care to comment?

Quote: "pejounet"​​​​​@Andy288:
​3. Please keep in mind that I unlocked the topic on purpose for discussion and communication.
​4. Principle of logic also says: criteria is not met, policy is applied...let's not get back to this false arguments and both move on with other topics for the discussion.
​

​I truly appreciate you for being open to discussions. I suppose you did not fully understand how logical operators works. When you make a statement like below

having people not swapping for some time (here 3 years) and come back selling directly

and you join two expressions with an AND it means both expressions should be simultaneous true to result a true statement.

So we and up with this:
having people not swapping for some time (here 3 years) = true
come back selling directly (you said it's not the case) = false
true AND false = false <--- criteria is not met

@ Neilithicman

Moderating is a team job, and a moderator can step in a moderated thread, as Pejounet did. it is ok, I am not the thread's owner.
It can occur as well that a member writes to a mod to mention a point that has is a reason to unlock.

Quote: "VieillePile"​@ Neilithicman
​
​Moderating is a team job, and a moderator can step in a moderated thread, as Pejounet did. it is ok, I am not the thread's owner.
​It can occur as well that a member writes to a mod to mention a point that has is a reason to unlock.
​

​Read my original comments. I was not talking about this thread but some in the past where Oggy had done his job moderating it and you and Pejounet unlocked to add your own personal comments. It undermines the authority of the English mods when their work is undone because you want to add your 2 cents to a topic which was already locked off and cleaned up.

I had written with 'Jarcek' about the suspicion that a referee with the backing of another moderator here was planing to cheat on people.

What really amazed me, i received this info from our annoying enfant terrible over discord. He suspected there was some kind of weird romance going on in the background which I dismissed as his usual stupid conspiracy theories.

Now with neilithicman somehow confirming those private messages, i will have to apologize.

Quote: "neilithicman"

Quote: "Cycnos"

Quote: "neilithicman "I don't see why the French mods should even be on these forums anyway. Do the English mods go on the French forums locking threads and banning people? Why not let the French mods patrol the French forums and Zak and Oggy patrol the English forums. Then you might not get the claims of French bias.

​​
​​Hummm... the guidelines are the same for both parts of the forum so I don't know why there is a question of nationalities on this trade.
​​You can like or dislike whoever you want neilithicman, but you are only speaking about a French moderator and a Quebecer administrator. I guess you don't like some English users too, so could please leave the French thing outside this discussion ?
​​As a French user I must admit it's not really pleasant to read this kind of comment, especially when we spend time to build the catalog on both languages and when we help people with their unidentified coins on both sides of the website.

​​The issue I have is the French moderators over-riding the work of the English moderators.
​
​It shows a bit of arrogance when the English mods had already done their job by locking off a thread and removed offending posts and then this was undone by the French mods who opened it up and restarted a debate.

"​Short" point on this because it comes back, then I won't develop in this thread (and I state again I have no problem in having PMs or a separate thread on this topic for a constructive discussion):

1. Debating on a forum, nothing bad in that. That is a purpose of forum. Discussing, debating, having different opinions, etc. what we are currently doing.

2. Indeed ZackUK and oggy are doing a great job, and I never said nor implied the opposite. Sometimes discussion can be reopened by me or any other moderator (because there are also PMs, reporting, emails, whatsapp, etc.), everybody talks and situation calms down (at least that's the intent); sometimes it doesn't work, but at least let's try. Mediation is a part of moderation. Personal note: I have no problem when somebody unlocks a thread I locked before - it's a forum, locks are here to prevent some abuse but are not necessarily definitive.

3. You mention "several" threads but cite only one case, I don't figure out which one exactly but I give it to you: true, sometimes it happens that I unlock a thread. Exactly what I did here and nobody seems to complain for now. It allows discussion and communications...even if it is against my own person on some points, I guess I can hardly be more fair than this

4. Specific to my case (of course, can't talk for others) and the said "French" bias you mention - English content on English side: should I stop caring about report for spams on English forum, catalogue requests on English side, English side of numisdocs, swaps, bugs reports, improvements follow-up, reference book updates, ruler authorities, tags, currencies, issuers, file modifications, etc. No because it's part of my job here. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the only one working: it's a team of several people (moderators, master referees, referees, translators, outing admins, members, etc.). Sometimes people sleep or do other stuff, that why we are several moderators.

5. Should I say you have a bias against me for the sets case with the various posts you've made on the topic? yes? no? I don't know but that is not the point in this thread. That is why I mention the "French" bias has no relations here. Here we talk about a specific case. I don't relate here with other language bias despite the fact that I also care about requests or PMs in Spanish or German and a bit of Chinese...for everything else, there's Google Translate (thanks Mastercard for the catch phrase ).

Quote: "neilithicman"​I notice neither you nor Vieille have addressed the issue I raised about you over-riding the English moderator on the English forum by unlocking threads that had already been locked and cleaned up. Care to comment?

​See above, I was typing while you posted this.

Hi Muenzenhamster (aka Fluke2 aka r3tsm....)

Constructive mood again ?

The problem was undermining the authority of Oggy, on this particular thread (I remember the incident but not the exact thread) he constantly tried to lock it, stated why he locked it, yet you both unlocked it to make personal statements.

But I can see we’re getting nowhere as you will not admit any wrongdoing on your behalf, so this is the last you will hear from me on the subject.

Quote: "neilithicman"​The problem was undermining the authority of Oggy, on this particular thread (I remember the incident but not the exact thread) he constantly tried to lock it, stated why he locked it, yet you both unlocked it to make personal statements.

Sorry but unless you point me the thread, I can't remember or figure out what was the discussion about. Then it's hard for me to justify the reason behind the unlocking. If you happen to find it, please share so we can have a look.

Quote: "pejounet"​

Quote: "neilithicman"​The problem was undermining the authority of Oggy, on this particular thread (I remember the incident but not the exact thread) he constantly tried to lock it, stated why he locked it, yet you both unlocked it to make personal statements.

​Sorry but unless you point me the thread, I can't remember or figure out what was the discussion about. Then it's hard for me to justify the reason behind the unlocking. If you happen to find it, please share so we can have a look.

​I wasn’t able to find the thread I was thinking about but I was able to find a similar one. This one was just Vieille, Ironically it was about Vieille overstepping his authority on the English forum. This does not look like moderators working as a team. It looks like a French mod undermining Oggy’s authority. As you can see Oggy had the situation well in hand, he had already locked off the thread and Vieille came in and unlocked it to have his say, Oggy tried to lock it several times and it keeps getting unlocked for personal comments, Oggy eventually relents and leaves it unlocked and the thread turns into a mess. Oggy even states in the thread that he understood that the mods are supposed to do minimal work on the other languages forum.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic74921.html

Quote: "neilithicman"​​I wasn’t able to find the thread I was thinking about but I was able to find a similar one. This one was just Vieille, Ironically it was about Vieille overstepping his authority on the English forum. This does not look like moderators working as a team. It looks like a French mod undermining Oggy’s authority. As you can see Oggy had the situation well in hand, he had already locked off the thread and Vieille came in and unlocked it to have his say, Oggy tried to lock it several times and it keeps getting unlocked for personal comments, Oggy eventually relents and leaves it unlocked and the thread turns into a mess. Oggy even states in the thread that he understood that the mods are supposed to do minimal work on the other languages forum.
​
​https://en.numista.com/forum/topic74921.html

Cannot talk about the initial post leading to this specific thread as it was removed. Hence the thread as I understand. So just talking here about the thread you point here.

VP, who is targeted by the title and initial post, exercises a right of reply as mentioned at beginning of his post "let me answer...". Same as it was the right of Oklahoman to start a thread to follow-up on the post removal. Nothing strange in this and quite regular on forum, be it either on English or French side or on any public forum. VP being a moderator, this doesn't mean he can't have a right of reply when being named. The difference is that he is a moderator and has the ability to unlock a thread himself.

Same argument highlighted by oggy afterwards "Therefore it is only fair that those interested to do so be allowed to respond to his post." Same right of reply for everyone.

It is not uncommon to have threads unlocked after a member requests it so he can exercise a right of reply. A recent example on French forum in which the thread had been locked some time ago then was unlocked recently for a right of reply.

I checked the thread and what I found does not match what you write:


Copied from the thread:
Topic locked (oggy, 17-Oct-2018, 07:09AM)
Topic locked (oggy, 17-Oct-2018, 07:59AM)
Topic locked (oggy, 17-Oct-2018, 08:00AM)
Topic unlocked (oggy, 17-Oct-2018, 08:01AM)
Topic locked (VieillePile, 17-Oct-2018, 06:21PM)
Topic unlocked (VieillePile, 17-Oct-2018, 06:22PM)
Topic locked (VieillePile, 17-Oct-2018, 06:25PM)

Your post:
" As you can see Oggy had the situation well in hand, he had already locked off the thread
Vieille came in and unlocked it to have his say
Oggy tried to lock it several times
it keeps getting unlocked for personal comments,
Oggy eventually relents and leaves it unlocked"

The story:
Two members opened a thread at 12.49, tittled "VP needs to stop erasing"; content was directly aimed at me.
Oggy locked it at 7.09; I guess because you were not complying with the policy.
I unlocked it to answer at 7.44 (I had been personally mentionned) and let it open for potential answers.

Oggy locked it 3 times in a row, how did he do that unless it had been unlocked in between. He tried to keep it locked to prevent the exact squabbles that followed. You can see his comment when he eventually relents and leaves it unlocked that he sighs and says OK then. How is that not undermining his authority? The English mod tried to lock a thread on the English forum but you tried to unlock it and persisted until you got your way. This is why I suggest that the English mods should be responsible for the English forum and the French mods be responsible for the French forum. That way you won’t have mods conflicting with each other and there won’t be accusations of bias.

@VP you don't have any idea about what are you doing, am I right?

QuoteI unlocked it to answer at 7.44 (I had been personally mentionned) and let it open for potential answers.

Above you claim to be the man interested about potential answers and below is what you said in the very first post in this thread.

QuoteThis thread diverting from the policies, I lock it.

You were not interested anymore about potential answers. You inconsistent moderation tells everyone that you don't give a damn about rules, you think you can to do whatever you want.

@pejounet you didn't said anything about my previous post, am I right?

Endless debate without the slightest interest.

Please keep the forum policy in mind.

Over.

Then stop rejecting the facts and assume that you have regrettably failed to moderate this forum without bias and with consistency. When you will start moderating based on facts not on moods it will be over.

What a thread...

Andy, I would like to point out that you broke the rule (not my job to judge this), got banned for 10 days because you were respected member, were rude, got banned according to rules​ and then created second account, effectively breaking more rules and complaining about both being not respected and rules not being strictly applied. I am a little confused. And my personal belief is that this thread should have stayed locked.

Quote: "Jarcek"​What a thread...
​
​Andy, I would like to point out that you broke the rule (not my job to judge this), got banned for 10 days because you were respected member, were rude, got banned according to rules​ and then created second account, effectively breaking more rules and complaining about both being not respected and rules not being strictly applied. I am a little confused. And my personal belief is that this thread should have stayed locked.

So what you basically say it's: if you brake rules we can do this too? Actually you didn't say anything about a moderator insulting members. That's fine for you.

By the way, is there a rule that respected members should be banned just 10 days? Isn't this moderation driven by mood and preferences? And what rule I broke before I got banned? I think I just pointed out using pejounet statements that criteria for being banned were not met.

Following you logic guys, there should be banned johnspa (God forbid, I hope you understand the rhetoric) for posting two different threads in less than a week and probably many others. So Jarcek you read this thread and you didn't understand where the problem is, am I right?

Quote: "Jarcek"I would like to point out that you broke the rule (not my job to judge this)

If you are unable to judge this is a problem, but anyway, if you are unable to do it how do you know that I broke the rule? You just believe what your team mates said, right? All other arguments are not valid.

I am no moderator, so I won't judge whether you did or not, but I don't believe you received ban for no reason at all.

I just summarized what happened in the first place, and said I was confused why are you complaining. You were treated mildly and nobody even acted on second account.

And to be clear, nobody should break the rules, and yes, I believe what moderators concluded.

If you have complaints about moderators, feel free to message me, Pejounet or Xavier.

Quote: "Andy288"​@pejounet you didn't said anything about my previous post, am I right?

I guess you mean this one, am I right?
So we and up with this:
having people not swapping for some time (here 3 years) = true
come back selling directly (you said it's not the case) = false
true AND false = false <--- criteria is not met

You are playing with words here and that is not a logical operator, only a wording/phrasing way to express the idea that led to this criteria. Hence my previous point about false arguments: this is not the core of this thread.

We may use this wording for the reasons mentioned if you prefer: "having people not swapping for some time (here 3 years) that would come back selling directly". Rest of the sentence being "without beforehand building back the 12/12....".

If this thread is not enough for you what a PM would change? Here you have all arguments of both sides and you are still unable to see where the problem is. Saying that nobody should break the rules and having few posts above a moderator insulting a member, what do you need more?

@pejounet nice try, you claim things and then you say: it's just a word

Andy288 iam sad to see you leave. Hope good health and happiness . You take care of your self my friend.

Interesting I was thinking of sell off some extra's at low value. Mainly to cover postage. But I don't think I would meet the requirements now.

Please remember most of us are good people. And people have issues with change. It is what it is. You will never please everyone, but you sure can piss everyone off.

Thank you Daryl. I was here in last 3 years without doing swaps because I wanted to stay in touch with some good people . I know that not all of them are bad but on the other hand these zealous moderators are way beyond reality. Actually none really saw a problem in my actions except Numista team members (Cyrillius is an exception).

I just read the whole thing and I see no insults. That is why PMs are needed. Especially when it is about forum that moderators can freely modify.

Quote: "Andy288"​​@pejounet nice try, you claim things and then you say: it's just a word

I'm not claiming, I tried in several posts to explain the "why" behind the rule that you didn't follow but complain about. The reasons are not criteria themseleves, they are reflexion that brought the criteria. From the start until now I'm consistent in what I say.

Post you refer to, have been removed already. Unless I missed one, if so point it out.

LOL he deleted his own post and mine too because I quote his insults. Do you see now Jarcek and pejounet about what I am talking about? I suppose there is a trash folder where you can see what he deleted.

Quote: "Andy288"​LOL he deleted his own post and mine too because I quote his insults. Do you see now Jarcek and pejounet about what I am talking about? I suppose there is a trash folder where you can see what he deleted.

​He didn't, I did...part of the moderation job and quite common if a post is deemed personal rather than on the topic discussed.
I don't recall exactly which one but the post was mentioning a quote (from an author I guess).

​You are pointing for the content to be moderated and for it not to be moderated at the same time, I don't understand.
​​​​​​
Unfortunately the system doesn't have such a trash in these cases (posts deletion within thread). Trash only exists for thread movements. I could have edited the posts and remove the content, result would have been the same: 2 empty posts, no trash.

Creator of the thread mentioned earlier about the 'french mod collector' here,

One word for all the mods on Numista is 'Bias'.

I have the feeling they put everyone they don't know with any sort of valid argument in a bad spot (like my thread OP mentioned earlier).

Honnestly since then i've started hating certain mods here just because they are actually that biased.

(mods that still know me, this is utter bullshit and you should stop being so French-Biased).

-Bas078nl

Quote: "pejounet"​

Quote: "Andy288"​LOL he deleted his own post and mine too because I quote his insults. Do you see now Jarcek and pejounet about what I am talking about? I suppose there is a trash folder where you can see what he deleted.

​​He didn't, I did...part of the moderation job and quite common if a post is deemed personal rather than on the topic discussed.
​I don't recall exactly which one but the post was mentioning a quote (from an author I guess).
​
​​You are pointing for the content to be moderated and for it not to be moderated at the same time, I don't understand.

​Unfortunately the system doesn't have such a trash in these cases (posts deletion within thread). Trash only exists for thread movements. I could have edited the posts and remove the content, result would have been the same: 2 empty posts, no trash.

I don't want to interfere too much.

On my part there were already more than numerous complaints from highly respected users about certain moderators here. Should give the responsible to think.

Deleting without notice and thus tearing complaints out of context has something of censorship dear pejounet. Furthermore will vilepiele get a ban for his more than offensive insults?

Reminder that I have been banned from the numista server for no reason (probably because I helped expose a former French referee)

Quote: "Teds Coins"​Reminder that I have been banned from the numista server for no reason (probably because I helped expose a former French referee)

​I had exposed her fraudulent behaviour already since years. What happend? I always got jumped on by several from the "numista-team", mainly because i dont care if i offend anyone when reporting discrepancies.
No joke, for not holding a french passport i received a 25 year ban by vile piele.

Lets see if there will ever come a apology from veilepile for being wrong and the hamster being correct.

Quote: "thehamster"​

Quote: "Teds Coins"​Reminder that I have been banned from the numista server for no reason (probably because I helped expose a former French referee)

​​I had exposed her fraudulent behaviour already since years. What happend? I always got jumped on by several from the "numista-team", mainly because i dont care if i offend anyone when reporting discrepancies.
​No joke, for not holding a french passport i received a 25 year ban by vile piele.
​
​
​

​she hyjacked a group coin Instagram account owned by Bas and demanded ownership of his discord server she also bragged about scamming a kid it was all put in a forum that was deleted by the French mods

@teds coins

you dont have to report to me. I know her misbehaviour very well and saw very clearly how she manipulated and used the french moderators as a string puppet for her fraudulent agenda.

That you cant find warnings from me concerning her is simply because of the fact that she had those threads deleted by her french puppies.

I never received anykind of apology from "team-numista".

Forget that apology. I would prefer to see "team-numista" replacing that small kids lost coins. That would show a sign of remorse and dignity.

Quote: "ALLRED1950"​Interesting I was thinking of sell off some extra's at low value. Mainly to cover postage. But I don't think I would meet the requirements now.
​

​If guys like Daryl don’t meet the criteria for selling a few coins on this site then there is something VERY wrong with the guidelines. I would trust this member above every other on this site. I’m sure I’m not alone in that either.

Quote: "Andy288"​Well guys,
​
​I am Andy289 and I am here to say goodbye to most of you I've been in contact in last years. I write you from another account because I was banned by the overzealous moderator VieillePile for not complying with Numista selling rules. This is what he said I am guilty of:
​
​1. Not having swaps in last 12 months
​Even if I have like 50 swaps, all rated 5 stars and made with reputable members.
​
​2. Posting more than 1 post per week
​Due to some issues I needed to sell a large lot of coins from my collection so I decided to not make a single thread but to split all lots by continents in 4 different threads. This because rarely someone want to buy an entire collection but instead coins from some missing countries or regions.
​
​As far as I understood it would have been fine to create a single thread with hundreds of coins but keeping them organized by regions somehow made me a coin dealer on Numista, even if I don't remember selling anything else here before in more than 6 years. I won't even talk about my contribution in this community, most of you are aware of that.
​
​Does anyone else see what these two rules are trying to prevent? I am here for selling coin? No. Did I abused Numista somehow? No. But does this even matter? The answer is still no.
​
​Now I understand why so many valuable members left this forum and why those who remain prefere just to read and not being involved.
​
​Greetings to all my friends here and grow up Numista team!

​Leave or not...may you come around Iasi on occasion...I'd be glad to meet you for a swap in person
:)

Quote: "neilithicman"​

Quote: "ALLRED1950"​Interesting I was thinking of sell off some extra's at low value. Mainly to cover postage. But I don't think I would meet the requirements now.
​​
​
​
​
​
​

​​If guys like Daryl don’t meet the criteria for selling a few coins on this site then there is something VERY wrong with the guidelines. I would trust this member above every other on this site. I’m sure I’m not alone in that either.

​You are not the only one. It's very hard to found these days someone like Daryl.

@i_getsov I am ugly, do you still want to meet me for a swap?

Quote: "pejounet"​

Quote: "Andy288"​LOL he deleted his own post and mine too because I quote his insults. Do you see now Jarcek and pejounet about what I am talking about? I suppose there is a trash folder where you can see what he deleted.

​​He didn't, I did...part of the moderation job and quite common if a post is deemed personal rather than on the topic discussed.
​I don't recall exactly which one but the post was mentioning a quote (from an author I guess).
​
​​You are pointing for the content to be moderated and for it not to be moderated at the same time, I don't understand.
​​​​​​​
​Unfortunately the system doesn't have such a trash in these cases (posts deletion within thread). Trash only exists for thread movements. I could have edited the posts and remove the content, result would have been the same: 2 empty posts, no trash.

​Did he broke any rule with his post? If yes, did someone banned him? It was pretty nice to cover him by deleting his post and then say: it's moderation. Let others see that a moderator can insult people without any problem. So if the moderator's posts need to be moderated what do you expect from others?

Quote: "Andy288"​​Did he broke any rule with his post? If yes, did someone banned him? It was pretty nice to cover him by deleting his post and then say: it's moderation. Let others see that a moderator can insult people without any problem. So if the moderator's posts need to be moderated what do you expect from others?

​not only was the bad insult deleted but also your response.

All without notice for others readers, i assume to display and discredit you as a nutcase.

Quote: "thehamster"​Lets see if there will ever come a apology from veilepile for being wrong and the hamster being correct.

​Even after showing 100% real proof that CassTaylor scammed multipe people for heaps of money and stole coins from coin stores, he called me out for schoolyard behaviour and being overal way too biased when confronted with proof.

I dont think he will give a reply, nor to my original thread mentioned ealier or ANYONE else he has been an absolute asshole to.

In short, veilepile doesnt realise when he is confronted with proof of a certain event or series of events. And nor will he recognise he was wrong, while you were being 100% honnest.

My oppinion, grow a pair veilepile.

Whale whale whale, this is rather a mess...

Best to address it in multiple parts I think. I'll try to answer honestly but fairly.

1. Andy, I obviously have no clue what was said privately between you and the relevant moderators, so cannot comment on who was rude to who.
2. I also did not know that the policy is to be always be banned for 30 days as opposed to simply deleting the topics. I've always just deleted the topics to trash [except in the case of consistent repeat offenders], as have others to my knowledge. Why you have been banned from the forum for this, instead of your sales simply being deleted I have no idea. That 'policy' has certainly not been enforced consistently as usually people are just spanked and told 'you can't sell here' to my knowledge.
3. The new sale rules themselves are draconian and won't help against scammers. These were implemented without input from everybody, though many saw them as a 'good' thing at the time. My input wasn't requested before the rules were made [or after] or I'd have told people I disagreed and it's stupid. When high requirements are made, usually only scammers make the effort to meet them.

I think I'd have done things differently, but the moderator action seems within the newly created sales rules. I however don't like the 'punishment' for rudeness, in what was obviously going to be a heated conversation following a pm essentially saying 'you're banned punk.'

If you ask me really honest i think casstaylor is a relative of the "mcdonalds burgerflipper" who scammed severall users here for hundreds of euros. Think they are from the same city.

​​​​​​That she was even stealing from stores doesnt suprise me. I always asked myself how a arthistorytudent could afford so many coins which she was bragging off here.

Back to the burgerflipper with his high maintainance girlfriend, nothing was done against him because its against "french laws".
Only the hamster again was getting banned for researching his location and providing a Google street photo of the publicly-assisted housing construction that rat was living in.

Ohhh yes, the "how many swaps are in the Road indicator" was implemented after that. We should be really gratefull for that after losing a lot of money.


The biggest scamers and thiefs were all from "Team numista" until now.

Even something simple as the mpcc was flawed with the organizer stealing the main price after manipulating the votes. Reactions? None. Yes guessed right. Its against "french laws....".

I think neilithic got punished for pointing that out by vielepile.
Afterall he also doesnt hold a french citizenship and is therefore considered a subhuman.

@oggy there was nothing rude in our PM at all, from either side, here in this thread VieillePile insulted me but pejounet as a good friend deleted his post to prevent others to see how a Numista moderator can break the rules without consequence. Anyway, thank you for your input, now it's pretty obvious for everyone that except VieillePile and pejounet all are on the same page here. Since they don't even bother to include you when they created these rules I have doubts they consult the regular members as they claimed.

All this discussion here could have also just been terminated with a single Private message.

A direct ban is a bit harsh I agree, there should have been a warning message followed by deletion of the sales postings.

No need to continue this discussion, if someone wants to discuss a proposal for change regarding the current policy to allow for sales then please create a seperate new post for it under the Forums of "Numista website".

i can only agree with andy288.

The hefty insult was deleted secretly by pejounet and also every evidence in the replies was quietly edited out.

It could but it wasn't like that and even when I tried to explain them that it's wrong, they could simply admit how embarrassing is the situation and fix it but no, they had to prove something, that they are never wrong. Now they proved to entire community how biased they are being the only people here that cannot see how ridiculous are their actions.

No need to shout any anger towards our forum moderators, you might not know but they are constantly doing a job that is not at all easy.
If you want compare it to the Men or Women checking if you have a paid your parking tickets, easy to hate for some but actually doing a tough job having to constantly listed to anger, insults and shouting badmouths.

yes in my opinion VielliePille should not have directly banned you, but instead explained you the rules as most of us might not know them then he could have deleted the sale posts and issued a ban warning if other sales post where added.
but this, is something that you have to resolve with him by private message.

Now lets finish with this, man up and write to VielliePille but in a calm and constructive manner and in Private Messages so that you guys can shake hands.
Lets get on with improving this wonderful site.

happy collecting and happy life,

Paul

Oh my. (Facepalm smiley which we miss so much.)

I would like to ask any moderator to lock this permanently and move it to trash, where it belongs.

Hmmm, I will say the rules should be enforced evenly, if they apply to all, then as previously stated by Andy, Johnspa (sorry John, not about you, just fairness) is in violation of this policy, right now, he has two posts within 3 days, not 7. I agree the rule may not be perfect but it is a rule. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse, try it in court.

Dont feel bad Andy, I got busted for this a while back too, the difference was I did not read the rules and accepted that I screwed up, as a matter of fact, I wrote the moderator and said "Im sorry, just a dumb newbie"

The substance of this subject is about being exempt of a standing rule, not acceptable. Rules have to be followed until changed, like any law.

my 2 cents
Mike

i also apologize to andy288/andy289 for hijacking his thread a bit. sorry.

Paul that was my first attempt, to contact him on PM but obviously it didn't work so why do you think now it will be different? It's up to him to be man enough to admit that he was wrong. If you read all this thread you'll notice that Cyrillius posted first and he suggested then to moderator to be man enough to admit his fault and to fix the things and everything could end there, but it looks like he have something to prove.

Quote: "Jarcek"I would like to ask any moderator to lock this permanently and move it to trash, where it belongs.

It bothers you when people can see that moderators are proved wrong and administrators cover all things like nothing happens?

Locked now. This is going around in circles. Please continue via pm or contact Xavier if needed.

I've recommend you message each other (Vielle and Andy) and reach a resolution without calling each other names or whatever happened last time.

Ps. It was me who deleted one of hamsters messages, not the French mods.