Trust in auction houses

Hi Guys,

I buy coins from various aution houses at numisbids portal (https://www.numisbids.com). But sometimes come to my mind question if I can really trust them, that they are selling original coins.
What is your opinion, experience or was there any case when auction house was selling fakes ?

Thanky you.

Quote: "LEÓNIDÁS"​What is your opinion, experience or was there any case when auction house was selling fakes ?
​

​Hello,

I'd think an auction house/company has way too much at stake (reputation-wise) for them to spend sparingly on authentication and expertise. So for the most part it should be OK to trust them.

However that being said everyone makes mistakes once in a while, including the most venerable experts. Check out this thread about a fake Chinese item that Heritage Auctions sold that I found while researching the same topic a while back: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/heritage-auctions-sell-fake-coin.299167/page-1

So to answer your question, yes, there have been (rare) cases when auction houses (unknowingly) sold fakes.

Quote: "CassTaylor"​

Quote: "LEÓNIDÁS"​​What is your opinion, experience or was there any case when auction house was selling fakes ?
​​

​​Hello,
​
​I'd think an auction house/company has way too much at stake (reputation-wise) for them to spend sparingly on authentication and expertise. So for the most part it should be OK to trust them.
​
​However that being said everyone makes mistakes once in a while, including the most venerable experts. Check out this thread about a fake Chinese item that Heritage Auctions sold that I found while researching the same topic a while back: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/heritage-auctions-sell-fake-coin.299167/page-1
​
​So to answer your question, yes, there have been (rare) cases when auction houses (unknowingly) sold fakes.

​Interesting article, thank you :).

That is an interesting read. I hate it when people give the advice of "stay positive." It does nothing, even the coin is real or fake and your emotions have nothing to do with that fact. I am glad he pressed HA about the issue.

Certain types are more susceptible to be faked and should generally be bought from an auction house which specialises in such types. Mistakes do happen; I currently have a 'questionable' one which I am investigating.

Most modern milled coins will be fine however. They will have been 10's of each type and be well prepared to handle them.

That said I'd be much more comfortable buying an expensive ancient from cng or an Islamic/Chinese one from Steven Album if it had no provenance.

Heritage are a 'broad church' auction house, and will sometimes make mistakes.

Quote: "oggy"​Certain types are more susceptible to be faked and should generally be bought from an auction house which specialises in such types. Mistakes do happen; I currently have a 'questionable' one which I am investigating.
​
​Most modern milled coins will be fine however. They will have been 10's of each type and be well prepared to handle them.
​
​That said I'd be much more comfortable buying an expensive ancient from cng or an Islamic/Chinese one from Steven Album if it had no provenance.
​
​Heritage are a 'broad church' auction house, and will sometimes make mistakes.

​I am sorry but I don't understand that "broad church", what is meaning ?

Quote: "LEÓNIDÁS"​

Quote​​Heritage are a 'broad church' auction house, and will sometimes make mistakes.

​​I am sorry but I don't understand that "broad church", what is meaning ?

​It means they sell a bit of everything, without any particular specialisations.

Quote: "CassTaylor"​

Quote: "LEÓNIDÁS"​
​

Quote​​​Heritage are a 'broad church' auction house, and will sometimes make mistakes.

​​​I am sorry but I don't understand that "broad church", what is meaning ?

​​It means they sell a bit of everything, without any particular specialisations.

​thx

To try to answer this question I bought an inductive conductivity meter that provides a reasonable good idea about the metal the coin are made of… 

 

Modern Coins: easy as you exactly know throught a catalog what metal the coin should be made of…There are fakes out there, about 5 to 10% of the coins are fake. I got burned with coins of several auction houses. DONT blindly trust auction houses. That said, most of the auction house will take back the bad coins and refund you with no questions asked. So probably they know that bad coins slip through their checks witch for now dont seem to include conductivity meters!.

 

Ancient Coins: much more difficult as you need references from coins found on archeological excavations and meassured with a conductivity meter. There are lots of metals with impurities and alloys out there… Silver is just not silver… It has cooper, lead, arsenic, etc not uniformerly mixed with the pure silver… So conductivity varies wildly…

But you easily pick out the ones that are made of total different metals:. F.e. Silver you find lead coins, peltre coins, tin coins posing as silver. And there are LOTS of them out there. The scary part is that I did my homework and looked at the eyes, style, mouth, contrast, radiation lines, borders,  bla bla… and in most cases I cannot tell the bad coins appart from the good ones by just looking at a picture. Even having them in front of me its almost impossible in many cases (the copies are really GOOD).

 

I did never consider gold coins because they are far to expensive for my budget… But I guess the result would be VERY SCARY.

 

Bronze coins you cant test this way as bronze still is bronze nowadays… Obviously the bronze alloy will be different but you cannot meassure this with a conductivity meter.

I collect paper (not coins) but when I read the title of this thread, the last thing I thought of was whether the item was fake or not. I am sure there are certain coins (just like there are certain banknotes) which ring a lot of “bells & whistles” for the collectors with deep pockets & which (unfortunately) are the target of super expensive high quality fakes.  For the most part though, if you're into hunting 6 figure coins/notes & they're being auctioned most big auction houses hire a panel of experts which track down the item's provenance (history).  First line TPG items have a little extra comfort level but I'm sure they're looked over well too (that's what the seller fees are for).  The experts (I believe) would be pretty quick to discover a fake for a lot of the modern stuff. If I compared the scrutiny that an auction house employs to what most eBay Power Seller's do, then I would put my $ on an Auction house any day.

 

The first thing that came to my mind when I read “trust in auction houses” was “shill bidding” which most auction houses allow (between the consigner & his own lot).  Yes, that's right folks, most auction houses allow the consigner to bid on their items (read the terms & conditions of each online/live auction). 

 

Read this thread on the PMF incorrectly titled: Stacks & Bowers buying back their own notes but is really about them re-listing items on eBay for much higher prices than the item originally sold. I first read Lynn Knights terms & conditions (which allow a consigner to bid on his/her own items) & apparently that's allowed by most auction houses.  And I have read countless threads on eBay shill bidding as well, so it always pays to go into bidding with a top limit in mind.

Wow — Never thought of that! But I suppose the consigner has to be very careful. If he bids too high he'll end up paying an 18–20% fee for his own item.

 

It's certainly in the interest of the auctioneer to sell at the highest possible price since their commission will be higher. It also paves the way for more and better submissions for their next auction.

 

On eBay I have occasionally informed sellers that their items were either forgeries (e.g. the ☠️💀💩☠️ Spiro stamp forgeries) or misidentified (e.g. a Canadian 1870 LCW 50-cent coins which had been graded as the much more valuable “without LCW” variety).

 

Sometimes it goes the other way if you know your stuff, such as when I identified a contemporary cast copy of a Nova Scotia token in a lot of culls.

If he bids too high he'll end up paying an 18–20% fee for his own item.

Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, that is NOT the case. In fact, with most auction houses, the consigner is given the option to re-list, have the auction house return item (no seller's fee or a reduced 5% fee + shipping) or have them offer it to the 2nd highest bidder. The larger the consignment -the better the terms (lower seller fees & more flexible shill bidding options).  Most consigners prefer the 1st or last option (to sell to next highest bidder).  I would say that most of the terms & conditions encourage shill bidding by the consigner. That is how I interpreted the shared PMF thread. 

 

Crazy eh?

 

(ALSO: my biggest problem with eBay is misattributed items- often a banknote is incorrectly ID'd to be a more scarce/older version.  Years ago, I notified several Power-Sellers of their mislabelled items. Some complied & relabelled but many ignored my messages.  You can report them to eBay admin but they're Power Sellers so untouchable for the most part).

Good to know! Except for eBay I have not done much auction bidding. But I'll take the time of reading the terms next time I do.

Instead of:

The larger the consignment -the better the terms

I should have wrote “the more significant (higher valued) consignments" the better the terms.  ”Larger" could actually imply you have 30 low value items valued at $6000 (or $20 each) which is not what big auction houses seek. It is much more in their favour to list 1 item at which may realize $6000.00 than 20 items. Apparently seller's fees (terms) don't get much better unless your consignment is  north of $10,000.00 (& there should be some trophy notes/coins offered).

 

The fortunate thing is that a lot of listings are from relatives who wish to dispose of their inherited collection (& not collectors flipping) so you also have to also take that into consideration.

Yes — And that's what I understood by “larger consignment”.

 

I see sometimes lots being described as “Grandpa's coin collection” and, if there is a second such lot, “Grandma's coin collection” — common coins in 3-ring binders that were not worth the auctioneer's time to go through and assess… Still, it may happen that such a collection contains a gem that would then be listed separately.

 

With such a lot one's best hope is that two alpha-males will get into a bidding war just to prove to the other that they are loaded with cash. This happened a few years back with a lot of modern (1960s and later) scrip and coupons estimated at (if I remember correctly) $150, but it went for $2100. And no, there was no gem in there; just promotional coupons and scrip; many were not even exchangeable for goods.

Auction houses do make mistakes.

 

I like this part on Acsearch, not sure if visible for non members.

Experts describe and correct mistakes on Auction listings and sometimes just add a comment.

 

https://www.acsearch.info/comments.html

Smaller auction houses & privately owned coin shops which have expanded into the auction business are often notorious for over grading banknotes too.  They're coin people (first) & you really take your chances poor descriptions & their private delivery services (+ extra charges). I was referred to an online platform named auction network  who not only “shill bid” but also misattributed & regularly over graded uncertified banknotes. Unfortunately, I won & submitted a incorrectly described “UNC” Devil Face $5.00 that came back as AU 50 from BCS.  I cannot prove they “shill bid” but the friend who referred them to me admitted he also suspected this practice (of artificially increasing bids) when we both compared notes (& saw the same items re-listed repeatedly- if the item didn't meet a certain price). They were reluctant to use Canada Post (& preferred to use their expensive PAK shipping service).  I think they must have had several complaints as they don't seem as active as 5-10 years ago.

 

So bottom line is, to be careful where you “try your luck,” as well.  Often it pays just to patronize the big auction houses.