Mint and Privy Marks [solved]

I often come across the term that a coin has a certain "mint mark" upon it, and I think I have a pretty good grasp of what that means given it id the market that denotes where or what Mint minted the coin. But I am confused about "privy" marks. Are they the same as mint marks? and what does a privy mark denote?

privy marks refer to a person.

For example
In France, Belgium and the Netherlands it is a symbol choosen by the director of the mint.

Particularity in the Netherlands is that in a year of change of director they use the symbol of the old director and add a star.

kind regards

Privy marks represent more than the location of the mint.
On French coins one can find the mint mark, usually a capital letter , A for Paris, etc, and also some figures that are personal monograms of the engraver, and the director of the coinage.
this swiss franc has the mint mark A on the reverse, showing it was stuck at Paris, and on the obverse, the pointing hand of director Charles Louis Deirickx, and the dog head of engraver Jean-Jaques Barre.


On modern coins they can be used for other purposes, like special commemoratives.

Hey Kipsley,

Here is a French 1 centime coin from 1896; the three symbols beneath the denomination are what you want to know about.


The "A" in the centre is the mintmark, representing where it was minted (Paris, in this case).

The fasces to the right, is the privy mark, of the Chief Engraver of the Monnaie de Paris.

The cornucopia to the left, is also a privy mark, but of the regional branch mint's director (in this case, the director of the Paris mint).

Dutch coins display both a mint mark and a privy mark:


The Caduceus, here on the right, is the mark of the Royal Dutch Mint at Utrecht. The caduceus was a staff carried by the Roman god Mercury, who was the patron of merchants, among others, which links the symbol to money.
For over a century, all Dutch coins have been minted at the RDM, except during WWII, when the government in exile commissioned coins in the USA, which carry the D, P or S mint marks.

The Fish on the left is the privy mark. From 1945-1969 mint master was JWA Hengel. Dutch hengel means 'fishing rod', hence the fish as his mark, but mostly there is no or only a far-fetched relation between privy mark and person. Here is the full list of Dutch privy marks.

A variation on the privy mark theme can be found on the coins of the Roman Empire of the third-fourth century AD. In some cases, there was more than one mint officina (facility) in the mint city, so an additional letter was added to the end of the abbreviation for the city/(mintmark).

That way, the emperor knew who to execute if the coinage was not up to standard!

For some coins, particularly some minted in Paris, the coin has the two privy marks, but no mintmark.

There is also a Hamburg 32 schilling 1809 that has "CAIG", the mint official's initials for the Paris Mint, because the coin was issued while Hamburg was occupied by French forces.

Beginning to understand how privy marks work on older coins, but my question actually relates to modern coins. As an example I have given a picture (below) of an Australian 1 dollar coin that has one of these privy marks just beneath the belly of the kangaroo. Given this coin was only circulated from the World Money Fair 2015, I assumed that the privy mark was placed upon the coin at the Fair. I looked online but could not seem to find a satisfactory answer. I also guess that it's only to make this coin a collectable or momento of the Fair? Are these coins even collectable as there are quite a few Australian dollar coins with privy marks to denote Shows or various Fairs.

Ehhh, I would say no, they're not any more valuable than coins without those marks. Just another souvenir gimmick if you ask me.

I'm not even sure I would call those Ampelmann marks on the Australian coins privy marks. They don't signify anyone who was involved in the process of minting the coin; not a mint director, or an assayer or anything like the ones on the examples we listed above do.

Now I understand your question.

While they may be considered a Mint gimmick to generate a "limited edition", they are a Mint product and legal tender. Some, if not all, are also listed in the Krause catalog. The NGC price guide only lists the letters/marks, but the catalog identifies them.

Below is the NGC Price Guide link for KM 208. The Krause catalog identifies M as the Royal Melbourne Show, C is Canberra, and S is the Sydney Royal Easter Show.

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/australia-dollar-km-208-1993-cuid-1068245-duid-1217005

(Canada also has a number of similar symbols/"marks", especially on Maple Leafs.)

Quote: "Kipsley"​Given this coin was only circulated from the World Money Fair 2015, I assumed that the privy mark was placed upon the coin at the Fair.

​The mark was not added to the coin; it is in a special reverse die. Supposedly, those coins could only be purchased at that event.

Quote: "halfdisme"​

Quote: "Kipsley"​Given this coin was only circulated from the World Money Fair 2015, I assumed that the privy mark was placed upon the coin at the Fair.

​​The mark was not added to the coin; it is in a special reverse die. Supposedly, those coins could only be purchased at that event.

​Ok, so I looked up its Numista page and it lists the Amplemann marked coins in their own line:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3148.html

So I suppose it's an official gimmick, but I still object to calling the Amplemann mark a "privy mark" for reasons already listed. It's more like a slightly altered commemorative edition or something (e.g. like the VIGO and LIMA coins from Anne and George II's reigns, that have slight alterations from regular issues for commemorative purposes but are still listed with them type-wise).

Quote: "CassTaylor"​

Quote: "halfdisme"​
​

Quote: "Kipsley"​Given this coin was only circulated from the World Money Fair 2015, I assumed that the privy mark was placed upon the coin at the Fair.

​​​The mark was not added to the coin; it is in a special reverse die. Supposedly, those coins could only be purchased at that event.

​​Ok, so I looked up its Numista page and it lists the Amplemann marked coins in their own line:
​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3148.html
​
​So I suppose it's an official gimmick, but I still object to calling the Amplemann mark a "privy mark" for reasons already listed. It's more like a slightly altered commemorative edition or something (e.g. like the VIGO and LIMA coins from Anne and George II's reigns, that have slight alterations from regular issues for commemorative purposes but are still listed with them type-wise).

​For what it's worth, the Charlton "Canadian Coins 2009" catalog (63rd edition) calls the similar Canadian special marks "privy marks".

I think it is just shorthand, rather than accuracy--like calling French emergency coins "notgeld" or calling the Isle of Man distribution/variety marks (AA, BB, etc.) "mintmarks".

Thank guys. That was really helpful.

Kipsley, if you have been satisfied with the info, you should mark this string as Solved.

Interesting Topic Kipsley. I have spent a lot of time researching this subject and it is complicated. Regardless of what the above posters have said about Mintmarks & Privymarks the meaning of them is very different on Australian decimal coins, especially the Australian dollar in recent years. The Australian Dollar Coin in various forms/editions has had 189 Mintmarks, Privymarks & Counterstamps applied to them up to the end of 2018.

The first one which had raised Letters C, M & S was the 1993 "Landcare" dollar which had a "C" (Canberra), "M" (Melbourne) & "S" (Sydney) Mintmark applied to it. >> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces7358.html

These Mintmarks were applied to the coins in the Cities indicated, at the Public Gallery Press in the Royal Australian Mint in Canberra, and on the Mobile Presses at the Royal Melbourne Show and the Sydney Easter Show. So they are true Mintmarks. This basic premise was followed on all the Mintmarked coins issued by the RAM whether at the RAM or on the Mobile Presses until the Year 2000 on the "HMAS Sydney" Dollar. >> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces12610.html

Then in 2002 on the "Year of the Outback" dollar coin only the Canberra coin had a raised letter "C" Mintmark, the Brisbane, Melbourne & Sydney coins had a raised letter in an incused circle. The RAM, at the time, still called these Mintmarks but we now call these types of marks, Counterstamps (B), (M) & (S) respectively. >> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces6897.html

There then came a period of what the RAM at the time still continued to call them as Mintmarks, but were actually what we would now call them as Counterstamps. That is they were all raised letters in an incused circle. The first coin this applied to was the 2003 "50th Anniversary of the Korean War" dollar which had (C), (B), (M) & (S) Mintmarks/Counterstamps. >> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces19372.html

This pattern was followed until 2007 on the "75th Anniversary of the Sydney Harbour Bridge" dollar, that is raised letters in an incused circle. Some of the coins in this period were struck in the individual Cities on the Mobile Press and some were struck at the RAM and sold by dealers nationwide. That is the (B), (M) & (S) Counterstamps were also struck by the RAM in Canberra. >> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces13907.html

Then in 2008 when the "100 Year Anniversary of the Australian Coat of Arms" coin was released the RAM made quite a big change. This was the first year they released a four coin set which went back to the "C" coin being a Mintmark (Raised letter C) but the other three had an incused letter in a small raised Square [B}, [M], [S] etc. They also started to call these marks as Privymarks.

They also continued to stamp coins in the individual Cities, Brisbane, Melbourne & Sydney with (B), (M) & (S) Counterstamps, that is a raised letter in an incused circle. And they also stamped out coins on the Gallery Press at the RAM in Canberra. So there were 8 different versions of the same coin, although it was difficult to tell the difference between the "C" Gallery press coin and the "C" coin included in the four coin set. Experienced collectors could tell them apart by small differences in the location of the mark or its depth/strength >> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces13908.html

This new pattern of "C" Mintmark & [B} [M] [S] etc Privymarks in the 4 coin set and (B), (M) & (S) Counterstamps sold in the actual Cities, but not necessarily stamped in those cities, has continued to date.

The RAM for a little while also expanded the 4 Coin sets to include Privymarks from Adelaide, Darwin, Hobart & Perth [A], [D], [H] & [P] for a while but they only did that for a couple of years. They also occasionally put out a coin with a unique one off Counterstamp such as (TV), on the "50 Years of TV Coin" or (E), on the "Eureka Stockade" coin, or (G) on the "90 Years Since Gallipoli" coin. The very latest one is the 2018 "100 Years of Anzac" coin that has been Counterstamped at the RAM Popup Shop at Albany with an (AL) stamp. Only 5000 of these were made.

These Mintmarked, Privymarked & Counterstamped dollar coins are considered within the Australian coin collecting community as different releases. This is why I have put a lot of work into putting them all on Numista as separate entries and describing them with their individual marks/stamps and Mintages etc.
(There are also 2 coins with Edgemarks)

Some have very low mintages and command high prices due to being very hard to obtain.
The 2013 "Bi-Centenary of the Holey Dollar" (B) Counterstamp has the lowest Mintage at 2,403.

To summarise then ..... by my reckoning there are up to the end of 2018 ......

47 $1 Coins with Mintmarks > "C"x21, "M"x7, "S"x9, "B"x5, "A"x4, & 1 Master Mintmark coin.
75 $1 Coins with Counterstamps > (C )x8, (A)x1, (M)x18, (S)x17, (B)x15, (P)x4, (E)x1, (G)x1, (GC)x1, (TV)x1, (AL)x2, (Map)x5 & (Bluebell)x1
65 $1 Coins with Privymarks > [M]x15, [S]x15, x14, [A]x2, [D]x2, [H]x2, [P]x7, [WMF]x4, [PA}x1 & the recent [A]x1 [U}x1 [S]x1 Dollar Discovery ones
2 $1 Coins with Edge Marks > 'C'x1, 'S'x1

"Mintmarks" are a raised letter only on the field of the coin.
(Counterstamps) are a raised letter or symbol in an incused Circle.
[Privymarks] are a letter or symbol (Such as the Ampelmamn one) incused in a raised Square.
'Edge Marks' are pretty self explanatory.

Cheers Mike

Hi,
1947 Sweden 1 Krona (Gustaf V) has a monogram "TS" which is fine, but it also has a privy mark that I can't find. (Left of lower neck). And, while I am at it, what do "they" call this particular design at the rim?
Thanks,
Tom Martinet (LV, NV)

Quote: "zzyzxtom"​Hi,
​1947 Sweden 1 Krona (Gustaf V) has a monogram "TS" which is fine, but it also has a privy mark that I can't find. (Left of lower neck). And, while I am at it, what do "they" call this particular design at the rim?
​Thanks,
​Tom Martinet (LV, NV)

​Please provide a link when you refer to a coin in Numista.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1495.html

I don't know what the symbol to the left of the lower neck is.
(This post might have got more attention as a new topic instead of a reply.)