Initials A.C. counterstamped all over cartwheel two penny

Hi everyone, I just got a bulk lot that had one of the big 1797 cartwheel twopenny coins in it. The coin has the initials A.C. stamped all over it. Does anyone know what the counterstamps are for? I was thinking it was probably a merchant's stamp but I have no idea why they would punch their initials into the coin. (I can post images of it later when I get home).

For most "initials" counterstamps; most of the time they're untraceable and mean nothing. For some they might make a coin become more interesting but for me an obscure mark like that might as well be damage.

If you're feeling lucky though, try looking through this list of known merchant counterstamps to see if anything turns up:
http://www.exonumia.com/art/cma.htm

Quote: "CassTaylor"​For most "initials" counterstamps; most of the time they're untraceable and mean nothing. For some they might make a coin become more interesting but for me an obscure mark like that might as well be damage.
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​If you're feeling lucky though, try looking through this list of known merchant counterstamps to see if anything turns up:
​http://www.exonumia.com/art/cma.htm

​I'd already seen that site and there doesn't seem to be any plain AC stamps.

I disagree that it may as well be damage. It's part of the history of the coin. I understand why the merchant put chop marks on silver coins, because they were a sign that the coin had been checked and found to be silver rather than a forgery, I'm just wondering why they put them on a copper coin.

The guy really went to town on this one, 6 stamps on one side, 5 on the other, and even managed to get 3 or 4 onto the edge

Quote: "neilithicman"​
I understand why the merchant put chop marks on silver coins, because they were a sign that the coin had been checked and found to be silver rather than a forgery, I'm just wondering why they put them on a copper coin.
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​Yes, that's something of an enigma for me too.

About chopmarks, unless there's some way to trace them to some specific source, they're meaningless context-wise; kind of like how a very worn piece of silver that might have been some rare coin type once upon a time, but now with it's details not even visible, it might as well be junk silver.

Anyway, if you ask me it seems like some merchant around the turn of the 19th century was bored one day, or maybe one of their kids got their hands on it.

Quote: "CassTaylor"​About chopmarks, unless there's some way to trace them to some specific source, they're meaningless context-wise; kind of like how a very worn piece of silver that might have been some rare coin type once upon a time, but now with it's details not even visible, it might as well be junk silver.
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​Anyway, if you ask me it seems like some merchant around the turn of the 19th century was bored one day, or maybe one of their kids got their hands on it.

​There are some websites with pretty comprehensive lists of known chop marks, some of the coins are really beautiful covered in Chinese characters, I can see why some people collect them

Because of their known weight and consistency many merchants used cartwheels to weigh loose goods. A cheap, rough and ready alternative to an expensive set of brass imperial weights.

I would suggest that the reason they are so widely seen with stamped initials is due to attempts by store owners to distinguish them from the regular loose change.

Quote: "pnightingale"​Because of their known weight and consistency many merchants used cartwheels to weigh loose goods. A cheap, rough and ready alternative to an expensive set of brass imperial weights.
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​I would suggest that the reason they are so widely seen with stamped initials is due to attempts by store owners to distinguish them from the regular loose change.

​Ahhh, that's a good point. So it they find one that's exactly 2 ounces like they're supposed to be (the weights can actually fluctuate 2-3 grams either way on these big cartwheels) then they set it aside as a weight? That sounds plausible.

As a collector of countermarks, I read through this thread and saw that Phil said some of what I would say. Indeed the cartwheels are often countermarked, but we almost never know for each individual case whether the reason is that they were used as weights.

In the present case, because there are many of the same pair of initials, it could also be that someone like a blacksmith was trying a new punch. It's worth mentioning that they are not two punches but a singe punch with two letters on it. So, someone had this punch made for a specific purpose.

One also finds full names, and even those are usually not traceable to any particular individual. I happen to have two countermarked 1797 halfpennies, one "H.C" and the other "W.WALKER". It's virtually impossible to know who they were or even in what country they were living.

Back then, however, if you were the local blacksmith or the owner of a general store in a small town in the early 1800s, when everybody knew everybody, the initials or name would have been easily identified. This was pointed out by Greg Brunk who wrote the "bible" of merchants countermarks. The list linked by Sophie is actually taken from Brunk's book.

A rare case when the initials have been identified is in Port of Spain, Trinidad, where thousands of halfpenny-size coppers were countermarked "F D" from the 1850s to the early 1870s. However, the current wisdom, as described in the catalogue, is pretty much all wrong, but I will soon be in a position to correct it, including the full name of F... D...

Reviving this post just to show this cartwheel 2d currently for sale on eBay:



On the reverse two different Partridge punches were used, one larger than the other. This is unusual. May be he was just trying them out.

On the obverse, the small punch is used. There is also a HI or IH stamp in a cartouche.

Awesome little piece

And this one, though it's a penny (which just came up for auction on eBay), is much closer to yours since they are initials punched several times:

Here is mine

My first cartwheel, from David. I think ZacUK found what the RE was. But I lost my information on it and have been looking for it in the forum. Iam such and old fool. I think it is a cabinet maker in London .

Quote: "ALLRED1950"Here is mine
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​My first cartwheel, from David. I think ZacUK found what the RE was. But I lost my information on it and have been looking for it in the forum. I am such and old fool. I think it is a cabinet maker in London .

​I checked in Brunk and "RE" wasn't known to him.

I am surprised it would be possible to know who "R. E." was, so for sure I'd be interested to know what information you have on it.

And here are my two countermarked cartwheel pennies:



I don’t think we can identify either E. H. or W. Walker, nor even what country they lived and worked in.

Sorry Camerinvs for taking so long in getting back to you. The RE I thought came from someone here. But I can not find it any where. I got it from David.

I get that one but dont know nothing about that