France 1915 [solved]

Hi, If anyone has the time to explain the difference between Chambre de Commerce and regular French issue coins and banknotes in detail (in English) I will send them these 2 notes for free.
1915 - Chambre de commerce ( well worn)
1949 - Algeria 2 francs



This is for future reference as I love the coins, but not bothered about notes Thanks!

Hi lainmac,

Thank you for an opportunity to write about one of my favourite numismatic subjects! A similar discussion exists from a few months ago here: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic42696.html

Essentially, summing the information posted there up in my own words:

After WWI there was a shortage of circulating coins in France, due in part to the economic situation created by the war and the hoarding of silver coins by people after the devaluation (and end) of the Franc Germinal, the LMU standard Franc that had existed since 1795. This shortage is also the primary reason for so many municipalities minting their own tokens (see French Notgeld) for circulation in the 1920s.

Thus from 1920 the Chambres de Commerce stepped in for the Banque de France, and had (what were technically) tokens of 0.50, 1 and 2 francs minted for circulation, bearing the words "Bon Pour" (Good for) to mark their lack of intrinsic value (owing to the devaluation mentioned earlier). Countries with currencies pegged to the Franc (Monaco), French colonies (Tunisia) or countries in similar economic situations (Belgium, Luxembourg) also issued similar coinage bearing "Bon Pour" around the same time. By the end of the 1920s, with the re-stabilisation of the currency (known as the "Franc Poincare") "official" coinage issues (without Bon Pour, and not from the CdC) resumed.

Essentially, the difference between ordinary French issues and the CdC coins is the fact that they were not issued by the Banque de France (because of devaluation), unlike the regular issues that preceded and succeeded them.

Thank you CassTaylor, you're a font of knowledge as ever. I got a message saying these were notgeld but they're not listed as notgeld or tokens and I find the chambre coins quite often in the UK, so they must have produced a lot of them for use as coinage. Much appreciated taking time to answer.
Notgeld or not Notgeld is indeed the question!.

I would absolutely not call them notgeld, given that they weren't issued by any particular city/area/municipality etc. to circulate locally, as most of the entries in French and German notgeld are.

The CdC issues (as you have observed) are very common, with mintages in the ten of millions all throughout the 1920s, and they circulated all throughout France much like regular issues did (as opposed to locally circulating notgeld issues). There might be an argument for calling them tokens, but notgeld is not a good choice to describe them.

Cass, I don't believe that something can only be called Notgeld or Emergency Money when they are issued by a particular city/area/municipality to circulate locally.

I think these do fall under Emergency Money. Like the first sentence also on Wikipedia says:

Notgeld (German for "emergency money" or "necessity money") refers to money issued by an institution in a time of economic or political crisis.

Which is the case here aswell.

Or like it says here: http://www.frenchbanknotes.com/france.php?country=France§ion=Emergency

Billet de Necessité

Amiens is a city too. http://collectiondemonnaie.net/billetscommerce/

If I am wrong, I'd like to know of course! You are much more knowledgeable about these things than I am :D

Yeah, you certainly do have a point, it's really more of a question about the boundaries of the definitions of notgeld if I'm being honest.

But taking into account the original German word's meaning, I'd still say that notgeld isn't the most appropriate word to describe these issues by the CdC. Unlike notgeld issued by French municipalities (usually but not exclusively for local use) due to shortage of coins (hence "emergency money"), I believe the CdC issues were simply too ubiquitous circulation-wise to be considered as such (maybe on a national level).

But what about that top note he posted?

It's from de CdC in Amiens. Amiens is mentioned, so it's locally? :D

I know it's far from the German Notgeld, there's a big difference, but I think maybe that Notgeld from Germany, made the meaning different :)

Or the even weirder scheinserien or sumthin of which I got myself 15 notes yesterday. See pic :)

As far as I'm aware lainmac was asking about, and I was talking about the coins issued by the CdC for circulation 1920-29, i.e. specifically just these:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces889.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces705.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces699.html

As for the 1915 note (and others like it), they are essentially the paper money equivalent of the coins in French Notgeld. I say that because of their localised issuing and circulation (CdC de Amiens).

Those are certainly some interesting pieces of notgeld you have there, I've always wanted some but being a type collector I've never really bothered to get any... it would take me several lifetimes over to finish a type collection of German Notgeld.

It was nothing specific just the words "Chambre de Commerce" that I was interested in, I just happened to have acquired some bank notes recently, but have had several of the coins for a while that I keep.

Ah, well since I've only answered for the CdC coins, I'll give you something about banknotes as well.

No ubiquitous banknotes for use in France (like the 0.50, 1 and 2 franc coin set I linked to above) were ever issued by the CdC of France; banknotes in the 1920s continued to be printed without deviance from their pre-war issues by the Banque de France. This was mainly because unlike coins, banknotes were not concerned about the franc's devaluation and it's subsequent value vis-à-vis the price of base metal, thus the Banque de France could continue to issue normal notes without trouble.

The localised issues from some local "Chambres de Commerce de <insert municipality here>", like the 1915 one are indeed notgeld, or billets de nécessité; they were printed mostly during the war and for some time afterwards, always of low denominations of which there were shortages (0.50, 1, 2 francs).

Oh Sorry Cass, I was indeed speaking of the banknotes and you of the coins :)

But your knowledge as always is outstanding and I learned a new word because of you haha, ubiquitous :P

But I think the lainmac’s question was answered :)

Quote: "Salaction"​Oh Sorry Cass, I was indeed speaking of the banknotes and you of the coins :)
​
​But your knowledge as always is outstanding and I learned a new word because of you haha, ubiquitous :P
​

​You're more than welcome