Should the Carolingian Empire be splitted from France Kingdom?

Hello,

as the title says what are your thoughts on this?
To my common knowledge it was just as much German, Dutch, Swiss and Italian as it was French, only with the Treaty of Verdun in 843 the Empire was splitted into three parts
West Francia (Became the Kingdom of France)
Middle Francia (Became the Kingdom of Italy, Kingdom of Arles and Lotharingia)
East Francia (Became the Holy Roman Empire)

Shouldn't we create the "Kingdom of the Franks"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia
Which would include Merovingian and Carolingian coins
and then Francia with subcountries (West Francia, Middle Francia and East Francia)

What do you guys think,

Being post 1795 French collector I'm not sure how qualified I am to speak on the issue, but to my own knowledge of the Carolingian Empire, I agree with apuking. Pre-843 coins should probably be their own issuer in Numista.

For me it is a Yes. We have their contemporaries listed apart - Visigoths, Lombards, Suebi etc..

Hello all, and thank you Pejounet.
To my mind, and according to numismatic tradition,
all coins of "France" category should be sudivided into :
- French "feudal" coins (including Brittany antd Lorraine)
- French "merovingian" coins, from 470 to 751 AD
- French "carolingian" coins, from 751 to 987 AD
- French "royal" (meaning "capetian") 987-1793
- French "modern" coins.
So, yes.

Great seems everyone agrees.

To keep it simpler it is probably better to call the two countries to add "Merovingian" and "Carolingian"
Kingdom of the Francs might make it difficult for users to find these coins.

Quiquengrogne, I agree on having Brittany and Lorraine moved within French - Feudal

Added to the agenda of next meeting.

I agree with Apuking here.

Quote: "apuking"​ I agree on having Brittany and Lorraine moved within French - Feudal

​
Me too. Other one else ?

Hi!

Also agree! But I was wondering why this thread died off?

I just got some new reference books for Merovingian (6000+ coins) and Carolingian (1500+ coins) and wanted to add some, but there is no issuer yet? Would be great to add these two.

Thanks!
strato

Hmm, not sure!

I would love to see the Frankish Kingdom created--it is the last Germanic tribe needed.

Here is a thread I made a while ago. Also did not go anywhere, but more information on why it did not go anywhere:
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic72056.html

Happy New Year!

Sulfur, thanks for the link, I checked it, very useful background info! Some further discussion points:

• Merovingian and Carolingian Franks were not a single state, but a collection of relatively independent provinces (duchies, marches, counties and kingdoms), just like the HRE.
• so even if there was an Emperor, the provinces still minted coins locally, either a) in the name of the emperor/king, b) in the name of the local lord, or c) in the name of a representative of the emperor (the moneyer, only for the Merovingians).

Since the HRE states are separate issuers, I think separate Frankish states are also appropriate:

Franks
▸Merovingian Dynasty (481-751):
-- Aquitaine, Kingdom of
-- Austrasia, Kingdom of
-- Burgundy, Kingdom of
-- Neustria, Kingdom of (Former Kingdom of Soissons)
-- Provence, Kingdom of
-- Septimania, March of
-- Vasconia, March of
-- Uncertain Merovingian issues
note: Alamannia and Bavaria were "Tributary Kingdoms" of the Merovingians, but I think they don't belong here, also the coin issues are uncertain
--------------
▸Carolingian Dynasty (714-987)
-- Carolingian Empire (800-814)
-- Francia, Frankish Kingdom
-- East Francia, Kingdom of
-- Middle Francia, Kingdom of
-- West Francia, Kingdom of
-- Aquitaine, Duchy/Kingdom of
-- Alsace, Duchy of - independent duchy without a duke, issued coins in the name of a king/emperor)
-- Brittany, Kingdom of - not Frankish per se, but issued coins in the Carolingians' name
-- Burgundy, Kingdom of
-- Gascony, Duchy of
-- Italy, Kingdom of
-- Lorraine, Subkingdom of Austrasia between 747-751.
-- Lotharingia, Kingdom of
-- Maine, Duchy of - Neustrian Subkingdom before 751
-- Provence, Duchy/Kingdom of
-- Septimania, March of
-- Spain, March of
-- Toulouse, County of
-- Uncertain Carolingian issues
note 1: I think Lotharingia and Lorraine are different enough to be separate, but they could also be joined
note 2: to distinguish them, "Burgundy, Carolingian Kingdom of" and "Burgundy, Merovingian Kingdom of" could help.

I checked these catalogs:
A. de Belfort - "Description générale des monnaies mérovingiennes"
E. Gariel - "Les Monnaies Royales de France sous la race Carolingienne"
K. Morrison - "Carolingian Coinage"
M. Prou - "Les monnaies carolingiennes"

The Merovingians literally have hundreds of issuers and mints. Attributing a mint to a certain Kingdom will often be difficult. A lot of coins will just go to "uncertain issuers"

The Carolingian coins on the other hand are much easier to attribute and catalog, so here is a summary I made of the rulers that issued coins, expanding on the list above:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kh87JwOcYOgz7OvzHfrTM2IhS_8YfyPYucZgW9LKUhY/edit?usp=sharing

Best
strato

Still nothing new?
Yesterday I saw this Carolinigian coin from Cologne added under France https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces194157.html , while this one for example https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces106885.html is added under Imperial and royal mint of Cologne

This coin was minted under rule of Louis the Younger of East Frankia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_the_Younger not by the Western Franks and should therefore not be under France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Ribemont

As stated before I would like to the these issuers seperate in our catalogue.

Hi,

Well spotted! thank you for noticing!

I am guilty for the new coin - I totally agree that Carolingian coins don't belong under France, or Germany. According to Morrison / Grunthal, Cologne was neither East, nor West Francia, but part of the autonomous Duchy of Lorraine, an ally of East Francia since 870.

I think all the Carolingian coins (from France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Switzerland) should be together under a level 1 issuer . Mainly because of coins like this one, of which there are plenty. These are "undetermined mints", so technically they could be from any part of the Frankish kingdom. If East Francia stays in Germany, and West Francia in France, where do we put the uncertain issues?

I think the structure I proposed above should work okay, but there will be plenty of grey areas, like Cologne/Lorraine/Lotharingia/East/West Francia.

I also like the idea of "unstructured" separate issuers for each mint (Cologne, Basel, Strasbourg etc are already in Numisata). Just be aware there will be quite a few mints (I made a quick list a while ago with ~150).

Best regards
strato

PS. for the duplicate coin, I will put a picture of Morrison #1560, which has a slightly different legend and submit it to "Imperial mint of Cologne" for now.

Is the creation of Merovingian and Carolingian countries still pending or has been rejected?

It's pending... hasn't really been discussed yet

argh all the text was lost

try again:

Now and then I see Frankish coins in the newly added section with a French flag (earliest I could agree is 843 latest 987) can we revisit this topic of Francia.

Also I see in the French catalog that the Toures Pound is beginning 781 which is simply wrong. The dinars of this accounting currency were minted in the abbey of Saint Martin a bit before 1203 when Philipp II adopted it for his whole Kingdom.

The pounds of Francia and France would be:
- Carl's Pound (Pondus Caroli/Livre carolingienne) 793/94
- Paris Pound (Libra parisi/Livre parisis) from 1108 or a bit later. Was the equal to the old Troyes Pound (Livre de Troyes) 9/8 of a Carl's Pound
- Toures Pound (Livre tournois) 1203 [9/10 of a Carl's Pound or 4/5 of a Paris Pound]
- New Troyes Pound (Livre de Troyes or poid-du-marc) 1266-1792 [6/5 of a Carl's Pound ... I don't know if or when this was used for coins]

I have far less knowledge than the others who have already dug into this issue and thought a lot, with impressive results.

If I'm not mistaken, it seems we have different proposals for the end date of the proposed Carolingian Empire section (I have seen both 843 for Treaty of Verdun, and 987 for beginning of the Capetian dynasty in France). So maybe this is one point that still needs agreement? For my part, if we are staying with only "Ancient" and "Modern" sections, I would put it in the modern section.

I understand the challenge for Kingdom of Lotharingia and "Lorraine" (since I have a foot in these places).
If the Kingdom of Lotharingia (855-923) was "seated" in Aachen (or Cologne), and IF we are setting up the Carolingian Empire only until 843, I would vote for making Lotharingia, Kingdom of a new sub-issuer under German States, even though some of its coins were struck in other places (Metz, Toul, Verdun, Cambrai, Namur according to strato's link). I know this will look confusing, with the later Duchy of Lorraine under France > Feudal (and I was glad to see that this change was made quite some time ago), but I don't think there was any kind of straight line connection between this Kingdom and the later Duchy (except for the latin name).

If we are setting up the Carolingian Empire until 987, then it already has a home, as a sub-issuer there.

Just a thought on one small part ...

Quote: apuking​Hello,
​
​as the title says what are your thoughts on this?
​To my common knowledge it was just as much German, Dutch, Swiss and Italian as it was French, only with the Treaty of Verdun in 843 the Empire was splitted into three parts
​West Francia (Became the Kingdom of France)
​Middle Francia (Became the Kingdom of Italy, Kingdom of Arles and Lotharingia)
​East Francia (Became the Holy Roman Empire)
​
​Shouldn't we create the "Kingdom of the Franks"?
​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia
​Which would include Merovingian and Carolingian coins
​and then Francia with subcountries (West Francia, Middle Francia and East Francia)
​
​What do you guys think,

​