Hello all,
I just purchased this worn out 1861 British penny with a very neat obverse countermark:
I suspect this Thomas Peters was a British trader or merchant, or perhaps a Canadian since i got it from a Canadian dealer. Is there anyone with a coin countermarked by the same? If someone could check in Brunk or other works cataloguing countermarks, it would be appreciated.
Thomas Peters (né Leeuwarden, le 6 avril 1745 - mort à Arnhem le 26 mars 1857) était un supercentenaire néerlandais. Il est le plus ancien supercentenaire accepté par Guinness World Records. À l'origine dans une note, Peters a été promu, bien qu'il reste des doutes sur son âge. En effet, il apparaît que si la documentation a jamais existé, elle a été perdue.
http://www.facebook.com/NumismaticsUK
I'm not an expert in any kind of coins, but I reckon I'm good at research and will do my best to help. Feel free to tell me my identifications/valuations/gradings are wrong. It's the only way I'll learn.
I faced the same problem as you seem to have encountered, that "Thomas Peters" is a common enough name (even a Dutch name!) so that well over 95% of the results (actually, over 99%) are useless. I'm almost certain he cannot be the revolutionary. Hopefully, other coins with the same countermark exist and have a better pedigree than mine... I have found nothing yet.
It's very unfortunate that Brunk's books (and I suppose Rulau's) were printed in very small runs. Brunk's 2003 comprehensive book on merchants' countermarks now goes for over US $300...
My next step will be to look at almanachs of the later 19th century. If you've never looked at such books, I invite you to search archive.org and flip through some of them; I suppose they were popular in all major countries, including France, Britain, the US and Canada. Fascinating stuff. In Canada, some even report changes in the official rate of exchange of foreign coins. I have downloaded almanachs in which some of the prominent Canadian countermarkers (especially Devins & Bolton) were placing advertisements for their firms.
Unfortunately I have nothing that links 1861, a British coin, Canada, and Thomas Peters.
The reason I initially went for the revolutionary, was that 1861 was the start of the American Civil War and hence the end of slavery. Thomas Peters escaped slavery and moved to Nova Scotia, and then asked Britain for the settlers to be moved to Sierra Leone, which happened shortly before his death in 1792. At that time Sierra Leone was a British colony, and had a lot of trade with Britain. In the early 19th Century, the British West African territories used UK coinage.
So maybe, in 1861 when slavery was abolished, they commemorated one of Freetown's founders, Thomas Peters, by stamping his name on their current currency, a British Penny.
A bit contrived I know, but it links all 4 clues.
http://www.facebook.com/NumismaticsUK
I'm not an expert in any kind of coins, but I reckon I'm good at research and will do my best to help. Feel free to tell me my identifications/valuations/gradings are wrong. It's the only way I'll learn.
I myself went through some of the same rationalizing, so I do understand where you're coming from, but in the end it is most unlikely that anyone would have been commemorated in this way. Since the name is quite unremarkable, there were out there in the mid 19th century probably dozens of men with that name, including businessmen and merchants, the kind of men more likely to advertise their name on the coins they handed back as change to their patrons. Even if I found an acceptable match, it is likely it won't get past the probability/possibility level. (By the way, I'm downloading the Lancashire and Plymouth documents ─ thanks very much for that!)
Still, by having the coin posted here, there is a slight chance that someone else has one with the same countermark who will contact me. One doesn't produce a high quality punch of this sort to countermark a single coin. It may well have been designed to countermark pennies given that it fits perfectly (which would mean an English gentleman rather than a Canadian one). My suspicion is that the coin kept on circulating for a long time after it was countermarked, because the letters in the middle are shallow where they must have been much deeper, but the more prominent part of the design were most likely to wear out over time.
I have a US coin countermarked by the Toronto clockmaker JW Millar. Brunk in a 1980s article knew of 5 examples of that countermark; within minutes I was able to identify 2 more going through Google Images. That JW Millar is also known from a small ad in an 1860s directory to Toronto businesses.
I'll soon post another countermark. It says only "WW", but here again, it's a fine quality punch that was used. There is a small possibility that someone else will recognize it.
If you're interested in Brunk's work, then I suggest you look here: http://www.exonumia.com/art/cma.htm
As far as I know Rich Hartzog bought the rights to his documents and he has been updating them.
Alternatively, you can get the Rulau book (which I believe includes everything in Brunk) as a download (they no longer sell hardcopies). http://www.krausebooks.com/standard-us-tokens-download (I would sign-up for their mailing list and wait for a sale, I believe I paid $12 for my downloaded copy).
I already use the exonumia.com site regularly. Their alphabetical listing of countermarks is useful, though it doesn't allow one to know whether Brunk identified a CM as American or Canadian.
As for the Rulau book, does it also list countermarks? Is that an expanded edition of his 1930s works? (See the bibliography of the Brunk article I linked in an earlier post ─ well, this one.)
I'm likely to buy Brunk's works (or at least the most useful to me) sooner or later...
Rulau's SC of US Tokens 1700-1900 is basically a compendium of seven books, which are its seven sections:
1) Early American Tokens (1694-1832)
2) Hard Times Tokens (1833-1844)
3) US Merchant Tokens (1845-1860)
4) Civil War Store Cards (1861-1865)
5) Patriotic Civil War Tokens (1861-1865)
6) US Trade Tokens (1866-1889)
7) Tokens of the Gay Nineties (1890-1900)
There are a large number of counterstamped (CTSP) coins listed primarily in the HTT section. For example:
Thanks so much, Steve, for taking the time to copy the table of contents ─ greatly appreciated!
It's interesting that Rulau and editors list countermarks in the HTT section because that's how I see them with regard to Canada. Foreign coins circulating in Canada are just that: foreign coins circulating in Canada, and most of the time we don't have the pedigree to know whether a particular coin circulated here or not (this is especially true for the coinage of the French regime). But foreign coins circulating in Canada with a Canadian countermark virtually acquire (in my opinion at least) the status of a Canadian coin or token.
In some cases they are actually more like Canadian coins than tokens since they were made legal tender by decree.
Quote: "Camerinvs"Thanks so much, Steve, for taking the time to copy the table of contents ─ greatly appreciated!
It's interesting that Rulau and editors list countermarks in the HTT section because that's how I see them with regard to Canada. Foreign coins circulating in Canada are just that: foreign coins circulating in Canada, and most of the time we don't have the pedigree to know whether a particular coin circulated here or not (this is especially true for the coinage of the French regime). But foreign coins circulating in Canada with a Canadian countermark virtually acquire (in my opinion at least) the status of a Canadian coin or token.
In some cases they are actually more like Canadian coins than tokens since they were made legal tender by decree.
You're welcome. Looking through Krause, they list coinage counterstamped by a government entity with the country that applied the counterstamp. Thus, IMO it's reasonable that counterstamped coinage by private entities, should be considered to be tokens of the country to which the private entity belongs. It is also the case that a coin becomes a token when it acquires a counterstamp.
Quote: "Camerinvs"Thanks so much, Steve, for taking the time to copy the table of contents ─ greatly appreciated!
It's interesting that Rulau and editors list countermarks in the HTT section because that's how I see them with regard to Canada. Foreign coins circulating in Canada are just that: foreign coins circulating in Canada, and most of the time we don't have the pedigree to know whether a particular coin circulated here or not (this is especially true for the coinage of the French regime). But foreign coins circulating in Canada with a Canadian countermark virtually acquire (in my opinion at least) the status of a Canadian coin or token.
In some cases they are actually more like Canadian coins than tokens since they were made legal tender by decree.
You're welcome. Looking through Krause, they list coinage counterstamped by a government entity with the country that applied the counterstamp. Thus, IMO it's reasonable that counterstamped coinage by private entities, should be considered to be tokens of the country to which the private entity belongs. It is also the case that a coin becomes a token when it acquires a counterstamp.
indeed this is true. In such a case as I have with a Victoria 1/2 penny Stamped "FD" (Francois Delcois) who was a barber in Tobago, he stamped coins from all nations of 1/2d size to provide small change. So they become a token of Tobago as opposed to their home country but these coins with the stamp are quite often worth more than the host coin it's self !
Quote: "Mark240590"indeed this is true. In such a case as I have with a Victoria 1/2 penny Stamped "FD" (Francois Delcois) who was a barber in Tobago. He stamped coins from all nations of 1/2d size to provide small change. So they become a token of Tobago as opposed to their home country but these coins with the stamp are quite often worth more than the host coin itself !
Thanks Mark. That's very interesting.
But why would a barber do such a thing?? Do we know what his incentive was?
Quote: "Camerinvs"Thanks so much, Steve, for taking the time to copy the table of contents ─ greatly appreciated!
It's interesting that Rulau and editors list countermarks in the HTT section because that's how I see them with regard to Canada. Foreign coins circulating in Canada are just that: foreign coins circulating in Canada, and most of the time we don't have the pedigree to know whether a particular coin circulated here or not (this is especially true for the coinage of the French regime). But foreign coins circulating in Canada with a Canadian countermark virtually acquire (in my opinion at least) the status of a Canadian coin or token.
In some cases they are actually more like Canadian coins than tokens since they were made legal tender by decree.
You're welcome. Looking through Krause, they list coinage counterstamped by a government entity with the country that applied the counterstamp. Thus, IMO it's reasonable that counterstamped coinage by private entities, should be considered to be tokens of the country to which the private entity belongs. It is also the case that a coin becomes a token when it acquires a counterstamp.
indeed this is true. In such a case as I have with a Victoria 1/2 penny Stamped "FD" (Francois Delcois) who was a barber in Tobago, he stamped coins from all nations of 1/2d size to provide small change. So they become a token of Tobago as opposed to their home country but these coins with the stamp are quite often worth more than the host coin it's self !
EDITED: I just realized that your ½d was countermark after 1872, which would explain why Atkins and Chalmers didn't know about the F D countermarks or didn't pay attention to them.
The pieces overstruck "F D" by François Declos (note the spelling of his last name) were discussed briefly by Howland Wood in the American Journal of Numismatics, vol. 48 (1914) pp. 109-110. (NB: Vols. 47and 48 were bound together, so you have to jump to the second half of the book.)
Hopefully this is of interest to some of you...
EDITED: Here is the picture (p. 109) and text (p. 110):
I've just purchased three Brunk books on the Rich Hartzog website. I'll let you know when I receive them. Do let me know if there is something you'd like me to check in them for you.
Quote: "Camerinvs"Hello all,
I've just purchased three Brunk books on the Rich Hartzog website. I'll let you know when I receive them. Do let me know if there is something you'd like me to check in them for you.
Since you volunteered, here are three counterstamped coins (I do know one, but I'm curious if it will be in the Brunk books):
1) BERGER ctsp on 1845 US Large Cent
2) W. SCOTT ctsp on 1838 US Large Cent
3) I. BREWSTER ctsp on 1806 GB Penny (don't let the image fool you; it's much larger than the cents)
I'll be glad to do so when I receive the books. I got an email last night (Sunday!) that the package was already in the mail ─ perhaps an automated email, but it looks like Mr. Hartzog is all set up and happy to sell his stock.
The Brewster countermark looks familiar, but I can't tell where I saw it, if at all.
Quote: "Steve27"1) BERGER ctsp on 1845 US Large Cent
2) W. SCOTT ctsp on 1838 US Large Cent
3) I. BREWSTER ctsp on 1806 GB Penny (don't let the image fool you; it's much larger than the cents)
BERGER: Note that your CM may be incomplete as you can see what may well be a trace of a letter on the left. In Brunk there is a J. P. Berger attested as a coppersmith 1888─1895 Washington DC. This countermark, attested on a single ½ dollar 1877, reads:
J. P. BERGER / 1108 E. ST. N. W. / WASHINGTON, D. C.
Brunk, Merchant and Privately Countermarked Coins (2003), # B-561. That's the only "Berger" listed by Brunk (p. 114).
W. SCOTT:
That's on p. 267.
BREWSTER: Not attributed to any country, so given only in the general index (p. 357):
BREWSTER
B-1081. 1848 US large cent.
There is no picture, and Brunk may, as often, have been sent the text of a CM without picture, so it is not impossible that his would be the same CM as yours if the "I." didn't show up well on that 1848 US cent.
1) Berger: I doubt it's the same one. The blob before the "BERGER" is just that a blob. The ctsp you describe is much more sophisticated than this one.
2) W. Scott: This one is covered in the original Rulau 2004 book (see info below in black frame) and in the 2009 Addendum (see info in red frame). I was curious to see if Brunk's book would have both sets of info, but it appears to only have the earlier info, and it's not quite the same as Rulau's. (P.S. I would really like to know who owns the 1838 ctsp Large Cent, because it's not the one I own.)
3) Brewster: could be the same, but without a picture, it's difficult to determine.
I agree that the BERGER CMs may not be by the same, but there is a number of examples in Brunk of people who have produced two or more CMs that are quite different. It would be a good idea to keep in mind the possibility that it is the same in case new evidence were to surface. The J. ROBINSON CMs I discussed recently are a case in point since some have an extra V R (= Victoria Regina) CM on them.
As for the W. SCOTT CM, Brunk's book appeared in 2003, which explains why he doesn't have the updated information. Note that I see unrecorded hosts for known CMs almost every day in eBay.
BREWSTER: Brunk points to the fact that there is probably an error rate of 5% in CMs reported to him that he has not seen. He came to the 5% rate by calculating the rate of error in the same CMs which were sent to him by several different people. He actually warns the reader that if a CM seems to be almost identical, but not quite so, it is likely that it is because of a letter that was misread by his correspondent or didn't stamp properly into the coin (or, I suppose, fell outside the rim).
