1912 Russian Coin - Is it genuine?

I bought this from a fairly reputable dealer, albeit abroad, so I think it is.

However with the silly low price I paid it's best to ask the question.

Feel free to grade/value it too.

Weight and diameter are spot on.

I compare again with the HA specimen of the coin page and I know nothing about this coin so I only state what I see:

• most small details and the text are thicker
  
• the dots on the background of the eagle are denser
  
• the distances of some texts/letters and design elements are different
  

This can be because this is a variation (I don't know what the mintage was but there was certainly more than one die used) and some can come from the wear and it just appears off.
I hope it turns out to be genuine.

There does seem to be a little variation if you look through them here

https://www.ngccoin.com/auction-central/world/russia-imperial-1801-1918-scid-267/auctions/1912-eb-russia-napoleons-defeat-rouble-ms-ucid-3TGL

(edit: 5th one down looks like it could be the 'fat' variety, with the weird eyes. tiny picture though)

I'm still pretty paranoid about this one though. The helmet on the horse in the middle is bothering me, as well as some slight detail loss in the scorpion/wreath thingy just inside the eagle. I guess it could just be wear.

There's the same number of dots by the way (yea, I actually counted them) The eagles eyes are bothering me too, as well as the fat crosses below them.

Is this one worth getting officially authenticated? It's frighteningly good if it's a fake. How does an average collector/dealer spot that?

Real one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RUSSIA-1912-Rouble-NGC-MS65-Napoleon-Defeat/391410971089?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35828%26meid%3Dcf92a4fe67774343ab914610ab3137af%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D111750337932

Fake one: http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/FREE-SHIPPING-wholesale-1812-1912-russian-coins-copy-100-coper-manufacturing-old-coins/1456116908.html?spm=2114.12010108.100005.11.uUWcYu#


The mushy details on yours makes me think fake.

Look at the lettering on the reverse, the character which looks similar to a "b" appears four times, but none of the four are the same. Look at the toning it's too uniform both among and between the sides. I hope the dealer gave you a receipt, and I hope you still have it.

Quote: "Steve27"​Real one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RUSSIA-1912-Rouble-NGC-MS65-Napoleon-Defeat/391410971089?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35828%26meid%3Dcf92a4fe67774343ab914610ab3137af%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D111750337932
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​Fake one: http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/FREE-SHIPPING-wholesale-1812-1912-russian-coins-copy-100-coper-manufacturing-old-coins/1456116908.html?spm=2114.12010108.100005.11.uUWcYu#
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​The mushy details on yours makes me think fake.

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I don't think the details are particularly mushy (especially compared to that fake you linked), but will bow to your experience here.

Some more photos:

Quote: "Steve27"​Look at the lettering on the reverse, the character which looks similar to a "b" appears four times, but none of the four are the same. Look at the toning it's too uniform both among and between the sides. I hope the dealer gave you a receipt, and I hope you still have it.

​
Cheers. No idea where I'd be without you guys! And yep, paid by credit card, so there's always a chargeback as a last resort.

Definitely fake. Fake tarnishing around the lettering, looks like a cast copy if anything

A fake 100%. I suspect that it's not even silver.
Here is a Russian shop http://copycoins.ru/magazin/product/rubl-sey-slavnyy-god-1912-goda specializing on selling Chinese copies. They have a copy of this scarce Rouble in copper and another in low grade silver with high gade silver coating, the later for about 4,5 Euro. In bulk (500 pc) they sell for 90 Eurocent a piece, cheaper if more. You can imagine that factory price in China is much cheaper.

Compare with my original

Oggy,
If you have Vernier or digital caliper, could you measure the thickness of your coin?

Quote: "Andrey"​Oggy,
​If you have Vernier or digital caliper, could you measure the thickness of your coin?

​
Will do. I'll get it into my unis XRF lab too and use the lab scales there whilst I'm at it for a proper weight. The merchant is absolutely adamant that it's 100% genuine, so when I get back from London I'm going to have to sort it out when I actually have it in hand. I've submitted it to a couple of auction houses and to coinquest too, and all are saying it's 'suspicious' due to the toning and fuzziness, but unsure (possibly old cleaning) And you guys are absolutely sure it's a fake, so I'm really suspicious.

Thankfully in the UK we have something called 's75 chargeback' on credit cards which means the credit card company is jointly 100% responsible with the merchant.

Thanks for the help Andrey [and the rest]

While you are at it, measure also the diameter again. You see, the counterfeiters when making a coin with correct weight and diameter but from a different cheaper than silver metal, have to make it thicker. From the pictures you provided it looks thicker than it should, but let's wait for the exact measurements.
If you have an ordinary 20th century Russian imperial Rouble https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces11413.html or early Soviet silver Roubles https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces7401.html in which you have confidence, you can compare their thickness with that of your piece (it should be the same for original Roubles). Unless you bought them from the same seller, it's a good enough field test, when there is no caliper at hand.

Quote: "Andrey"​While you are at it, measure also the diameter again. You see, the counterfeiters when making a coin with correct weight and diameter but from a different cheaper than silver metal, have to make it thicker. From the pictures you provided it looks thicker than it should, but let's wait for the exact measurements.
​If you have an ordinary 20th century Russian imperial Rouble https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces11413.html or early Soviet silver Roubles https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces7401.html in which you have confidence, you can compare their thickness with that of your piece (it should be the same for original Roubles). Unless you bought them from the same seller, it's a good enough field test, when there is no caliper at hand.

​
Pretty sure it's a fake thanks. It's 0.2-0.3mm thicker than it should be, and weighs 20.7-20.8grams, so 0.7-0.8 overweight.

What I don't get is, if it's 5% approx thicker, surely it's not logical for it to weigh 5% approx extra unless it's silver content is the same? Why wouldn't they just make it the right weight and thickness?

Yep, it's silver. My scales here only measure to one decimal place, but I'm getting a specific gravity of 9.95. Could be 0.5 off either way.