Abkhazia coins or fantasies?

Are Abkhazian coins legal tender or fantasies? Some coins that look very similar to Cabinda and Greenland fantasies were listed in the catalogue.

Thanks for your input.

Please refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazian_apsar

As per wikipedia, the coins are legal tender.

Legal tender in a country, which is almost only recognised by other non-recognised countries, like Nagorno Karabakh, Transnistria and South Ossetia.  
Plus of course, Russia: It is a Russian puppet-state, cut off from Georgia proper.

Souvenirs. They were not made to circulate, and have never been released for circulation. The currency in Abkhazia is now Russian rouble, and these "coins" have denominations in apsars.

But they were ordered by the government of Abkhazia.

Quote: imrehPlus of course, Russia: It is a Russian puppet-state, cut off from Georgia proper.

Harsh! (...but true)

But, yes, I think they are similar to the Andorran diners - they were minted for a certain country, but they are not redeemable or worth anything.

Non-circulating legal tender coins.

Quote: nalaberong

Quote: imrehPlus of course, Russia: It is a Russian puppet-state, cut off from Georgia proper.

Harsh! (...but true)

But, yes, I think they are similar to the Andorran diners - they were minted for a certain country, but they are not redeemable or worth anything.

You are tooo wrong.

 There is a deep difference between Andorra and Abkhazia. Better to not write if you don't know these differences. I don't want to discuss politics here with Russians or Abkhazians, or or or..  I just talk based on Intl. rules and UN constitution.

1. These coins are issued by Moscow Mint, and by Russian Money, and Russian gold/silver.
2. Legal Government of Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia is in exile now, and works in Tbilisi (capital of  Georgia). The self-proclaimed government of Republic of Abkhazia is a crime group, become government  just with Russian support. So, these coins could not been asked by Abkhazian Government.
3. Abkhazia is self-proclaimed state, which is in fact a legal and historic part of Georgia. Georgia was  recognized in its borders by UN in 1991. and all of you, my friends (I mean your state Governments) including Russian Federation,  was agreed with it. Your countries also gave their agreements.
4. Any coin, issued for Abkhazia consider as fantasy coinage, because only Russia, which has occupied  Abkhazia, and several pro-Russian puppet states, (Nicaragua, Venezuela, Nauru) consider that Abkhazia is  independent state.
5. Neither Krause, nor Schon Catalogues never add these "coins" in legal coins.
6. These coins are just proclaimed as Legal tender issues. But Abkhazian Bank does not work and does  not recognized by other world banks. It is just an appendix of Russian Bank, and common Russian  people pay taxes and fees for it`s live.
7. Adding Abkhazia to the legal tender money list is a big mistake for respected website, focused on the  world coins. These so-called "coins" could be consider just as fantasy coinage, and could be added to  the  "tokens" list. Or, at least they must be  listed UNDER "Georgia", like "Italian states" are listed under  Italy or like "Biafra" is listed under Nigeria.

Can you say something close about Andorra, or San-Marino, or Vatican?  I think no.

Quote: Dato MikeladzeThere is a deep difference between Andorra and Abkhazia. Better to not write if you don't know these differences. I don't want to discuss politics here with Russians or Abkhazians, or or or..  I just talk based on Intl. rules and UN constitution.

1. These coins are issued by Moscow Mint, and by Russian Money, and Russian gold/silver.
2. Legal Government of Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia is in exile now, and works in Tbilisi (capital of  Georgia). The self-proclaimed government of Republic of Abkhazia is a crime group, become government  just with Russian support. So, these coins could not been asked by Abkhazian Government.
3. Abkhazia is self-proclaimed state, which is in fact a legal and historic part of Georgia. Georgia was  recognized in its borders by UN in 1991. and all of you, my friends (I mean your state Governments) including Russian Federation,  was agreed with it. Your countries also gave their agreements.
4. Any coin, issued for Abkhazia consider as fantasy coinage, because only Russia, which has occupied  Abkhazia, and several pro-Russian puppet states, (Nicaragua, Venezuela, Nauru) consider that Abkhazia is  independent state.
5. Neither Krause, nor Schon Catalogues never add these "coins" in legal coins.
6. These coins are just proclaimed as Legal tender issues. But Abkhazian Bank does not work and does  not recognized by other world banks. It is just an appendix of Russian Bank, and common Russian  people pay taxes and fees for it`s live.
7. Adding Abkhazia to the legal tender money list is a big mistake for respected website, focused on the  world coins. These so-called "coins" could be consider just as fantasy coinage, and could be added to  the  "tokens" list. Or, at least they must be  listed UNDER "Georgia", like "Italian states" are listed under  Italy or like "Biafra" is listed under Nigeria.

Can you say something close about Andorra, or San-Marino, or Vatican?  I think no.

Dear Dato / David,

I have read your post before the Numista breakdown, and I had no chance to answer for 4 days, but now, I would like to express my due respect for you and your nation.
I have posted congratulations to Georgia (+2 countries) for partnering with EU, which has been totally deleted because of ignorance of other people.
Even, if I am only the only one among the 35000 Numista members, I wish to write an answer to you, simply because you deserve attention!
YES, Abkhazia, so is South Ossetia, Trans-Nistria, etc. are not proper countries, but Russian Puppet States!
Everyone who thinks it is a controversial political view, should be penalized like supporting Nazis; and as a consequence should not just leave this site, but the entire internet community!

I fully agree with your point that if Numista (should this be a responsible site) shall follow international/UN conventions and not call any maffia-gathering or self-proclaimed country (like Sealand or Hutt River) a COUNTRY, it would be a much better place.
I cannot do anything, but share and reinforce your views, currently greeting you from neighbouring Azerbaijan,
Imre

Quote: imrehI fully agree with your point that if Numista (should this be a responsible site) shall follow international/UN conventions and not call any maffia-gathering or self-proclaimed country (like Sealand or Hutt River) a COUNTRY, it would be a much better place.
I cannot do anything, but share and reinforce your views, currently greeting you from neighbouring Azerbaijan,
Imre

What I understand from your post, Imre, is that these "coins" are merely fantasy strikes. Should they be listed among the other tokens?

If these coins are fantasy issues they should not be listed here. But my question is why are Nagorno-Karabakh & Transnistria coins listed under Countries. They are also not recognized states and Russian Puppet Government.

Similar counties of interest are Somaliland & Western Sahara. These are also not recognized countries! The rule should apply to all.

Numista tries to be apolitical. We are connected by hobby, not by belief or politics after all.

Numerous thread tried to adress these issues. All ended in vulgar inn brawl of politics.

So basically what we now aim to do, is to make some reform of "Country list" to show Countries, territorries (British Antarctic territorry is a country?), unrecognized entities and all other stuff.

Numista in no way endorses statehood of any country or territorry, we only aknowledge that there is some piece of land where these coins are in circulation. (Yup, that is also not true for Antarctic territories, do you see the need for reform? )

I may share you views, we may talk them privately, but please do not bring more live to those past discussions. (Or I actually ask moderators to lock all of these...)

A reformed "Country List" would be great. As suggested a division of Countries, territorries , partially recognized and unrecognized entities would be very useful. Further division of exiting Country and Country no-longer in existence would be great too.

My own preference without regard to politics would be issuers of coinage as follows:

Current independent countries (based on UN list of member states, non-member states, and permanent observers [including Sovereign Military Order of Malta]); include coins issued when entity of same name was earlier a dependent territory
Dead countries (known to have ceased existence; include antiquity, state groupings, provinces, etc., unless currently issuing coins, when would go in dependent territories); include coins issued when current independent territory had different name even if territorial extent the same
Current dependent territories per Wikipedia list of dependent territories
De facto countries/territories (disputed jurisdictions which are recognized as de jure parts of other jurisdictions); (Wikipedia list of states with limited recognition or none, plus Antarctic territories [no Antarctic claims are internationally recognized])
Micronations (Section for historical anomalies, legal anomalies, and aspirant states in Wikipedia micronations list, includes Principality of Hutt River [formerly Hutt River Province], Seborga, and Sealand)
Tokens (include fantasy coinage)
Exonumia

Will

Transnistria has a bit of an edge over many other unrecognized countries (and several recognized ones) in that (some of) their coins actually circulate. (I've even found one on the ground a few years ago... in Moscow, admittedly, not in their territory.) Between that and their independence claim, it's pretty clear that, at least numismatically speaking, they're definitely a country.

Nagorno-Karabakh is more confusing. It is said that a few of their coins might have briefly circulated (there apparently was an attempt to introduce them into circulation in 2005); it's unclear whether any actually did. Their face values would have been tiny.

Abkhazia... would've probably been accepted too if it wasn't so early in the alphabet. It's really their prominent position that took them down - not many wanted to have the first place in the list occupied by such a disputable "country".

One post-Soviet "country" that I would definitely remove is Tatarstan - all of their "coins" are pretty obvious tokens (not even for monetary values at that), and probably belong in that category.

(P.S. I am not a Nazi supporter, and should not be treated like a Nazi supporter.)

Can we expect a new country in the country list?

Even better.