Carrying on from another post in another section, the question is what do you think should be done with the tokens and medals etc that are on the site?
*Should the tokens section be split up to accommodate all the different varieties?
*Should they be included into the relevant country under a sub heading similar to the way differing currencies are separated off?
*Should referees be responsible for deciding if something should be included in the section for the country they are responsible for or moved into the relevant tokens section?
*Should rules be set to determine what constitutes a coin and what constitutes a token?
*Should they be removed from the site altogether?
Anyone keen to get into a discussion about this?
**to the moderators, feel free to move this into the Numista website section if you feel it needs to be moved. I thought we might get more responses in the free discussion section**
Ok, here is an abbrevated form of my previous message under another heading:
Exonumia collectors are around, they have clubs, sites, dealers, publications and online addresses. Similar discussions on how similar items should be classified is done all around: both in the scientific world and among the collectors.
I think on this site we should go like this:
- Country
--circulation coinage of that country
---uncirculating commemorative coinage of that country (minted by national mint)
----Exonumia of that country to be followed by all sorts of sub -headings you want. (trial strikes, piedforts, proofs, medals, medalets, tokens etc. etc. etc.)
You could close to see a country at whatever level you want. Or open to see all you want.
Really, all these are interest to numismatics as a whole; historically, artistically, geographically they all belong to the same country and are related.
Why was a separate place for tokens created in the first place and now why are we trying endlessly to separate them now from coins?
Lets keep them together but allow us "turn on" "turn off" buttons to see at what detail we want:):):)
-( turn on off? that must have sounded freaky there - somebody please correct my english:) )
So are you guys thinking that any token made in/for a certain country would go under it's primary listing in a sub-category?
As an example, would a gaming token for a casino in Las Vegas go under United States --> Tokens?
It would then show in the list of all tokens, such as here: US Tokens.
That's how I personally see it happening.
"What we are is not as important as what we aren't"
Yes, that's what I was thinking, and have it at the last section of the country, rather than the beginning so you don't see them unless you want to click on the link to get to the tokens section for that country.
That way we could get rid of the "tokens" country altogether and it would be up to the discretion of the country referee to decide whether any new coin that is added goes in the main country as a coin, or into the tokens section for the country.
well actually the site was in fact designed to work that way I think. But I do not know what went wrong afterwards.
Although we could of course re-name some of that and add a few more categories like medals to what exists and that should settle all this tokens/exonumia problem once for all.
I guess the tokens section has to go entirely as it is now because it is unusable and pushes everyone to argue what should go where, which circulated, which did not etc.....
all exonumia items that belong to a country that exists on the site should be moved to that country under their respective status - so carry French jetons to France, but under - "France/french tokens" section
all unexisting countries, micronations, unrecognized countries should remain under maybe "unusual World coins" heading until the World decides what the status of the minting place is :):):)
all unidentified items inside tokens should be moved to unidentifieds place that already exists on the site and await the arrival of someone who knows what they really are....
is this all too difficult to do? I do not think so. The tokens section this way does not work. it spreads to coins section:) so lets destroy it and join it into the general area where everything could be kept tidier.
why? because USA was not formed yet. OK.
But they were minted then in what was called colonies of the British Empire, were they not?
Are they not contempary with British conder tokens? So they were tokens to start with. And they ended up answering the coin shortage then and became coins. So they were in fact minted by not the goverment, but private induvidials. But ended up being allowed to circulate to fill a gap the goverment left open.
So who can distinct from above what is a coin and what is a token? Is the gap between them that wide?
See I am a coin snob I guess...I very rarely spring for exonumia unless it is something of supreme relevance to my life... I have an old Connecticut Turnpike token for example which I find awesome since there are no more tolls in my state and haven't been in my lifetime. So for me I would rather see the tokens segregated in their own section and not mixed in with countries. I also wouldn't mind seeing them disappear altogether but I think I may be in the minority there...
but tiny object called a "medalet", that means that it is a small miniature medal.
it is not that beautiful, maybe a bit dull at first,
look at what it is now please and read the inscription on it.
Imagine my pride of having it; I am not British at all, but am proud the share that story of admiral Nelson, and his ship and being able to hold in my hands a piece of it... to be able touch that history...
this is exonumia
and this is the two aspects of what we are discussing really
should we have this item on this site?
and where should we be putting it?
"In 1905 the B.F.S.S. (British & Foreign Sailor's Society) was instrumental in the program of events for the Nelson Centennial. A fund was set up known as 'The Nelson Centenary Memorial Fund' and the King, who took a great interest in the Society, allowed his initials, E.R. VII, to be stamped on the souvenirs. The subscribers to the fund were able to acquire medals and badges, amongst other items, for the donations and collections. The larger medals/badges were given for 5 shillings and upwards, the small Victory charm (16.5mm) to everyone sending 1 shilling (=5p) and upwards (this medalet). Provision was also made for a Victory Shield (for £5. 5s., five guineas, now £5.25) for schools to award annually to a boy or girl for success. Copper was also used to make Nelson busts which were available for donations of £50. The remaining copper from H.M.S. FOUDROYANT was also acquired and used to provide HMS Victory souvenirs for the boys and girls of the Empire."
Yes, tokens is a mess and some of the dross on there isnt even really worth a mention In my eyes. It's such a shame that some are added too it like my evasion tokens which ive recently started too collect which we're altered slightly to regal half pennies to evade counterfeiting laws, these could have impossible dates silly legends or both ! They also widely circulated to the illiterate nation they were accepted as sound coins. I find them fascinating so that's just one subject in tokens I strongly feel about. :)
Quote: neilithic*Should the tokens section be split up to accommodate all the different varieties?
Yes. There is a world of difference between a Conder Token and a Chucky Cheese token. Quite apart from any numismatic or historical value they circulated due to a lack of mint issued currency. Try paying your grocery bill with Big Bob's Car Wash tokens.
I think that English Conder Tokens, German Notgeld* and arguably some of the French provincial issues should be listed under the appropriate country heading. Everything else goes under tokens.
Now having said all that, simply lumping everything under a generic token heading isn't going to work. There would need to be separate headings within the token section for fantasy coins, Indian temple tokens, mining scrip / truck money.... you get the idea. We could probably come up with a comprehensive list based on the needs of users. By that I mean if we identify temple tokens as a series with several collectors then it doesn't make sense to annoy them by burying it under tons of casino tokens. Anything which isn't supported by a substantial number of collectors however should be dumped in the general tokens section.
Yes, I know there are people who collect modern tokens but then there are people who collect teabags and phone cards. Numista is a coin site.
*Notgeld should include the Werthgeld, Kreigsgeld etc. and the coins issued by British cities in the mid 1600's should be included with the Conders. I know there are differences but it's close enough.
Quote: neilithic*Should rules be set to determine what constitutes a coin and what constitutes a token?
Yes indeed. It would go a long way to solving the "what constitutes a country" question at the same time.
This question has been asked for as long as I've been here and indeed by generations of numismatists. It's probably time to resolve it, even if only for the benefit of our own cataloging systems. At this point it's clear that there isn't an easy answer and while I could undoubtedly come up with a half way decent definition, some will agree, others will not. We need to appoint a panel to come up with a final and definitive answer. It should include members for Europe, North America, Asia and the 3rd World, with at least one member who understands the technical implications and limitations. Xavier would seem the obvious choice but I doubt that will happen.
An understanding of when and why the various series were issued is a must. That's one of the keys for a definition - whatwere the motives behind the issue, filling a need for coinage or making money off collectors. Imreh has undoubtedly got the best grasp of the issues but like many others he seems to have been driven off by the infighting. Perhaps we could tempt the dear fellow back by promising to relegate Hutt River to Tokens> General> Fantasy Coins> ?
While it's important that everyone speaks fluent English, it would be useful to have people who understand Islamic, Asian and Indian languages and coins. Sujit_Kumar and Kenny are two names which come to mind.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Is there a referee for the token section or is it (as I suspect) just a free-for-all dumping ground? There are referees for all the countries, can we not appoint a referee for the tokens section and make them responsible for cleaning it up?
It's probably too big for a single referee to handle. I would make more sense to initially enter everything into the generic token section then apply to have those few non-junkie types moved to the appropriate sub section.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Sorry, but, I still think you have got it wrong somehow at one point and making the same mistake which created this mess in the first place. You have to stop trying to divide numismatics...
In the world of numismatics, there is no border between lets say a token, medal, circulation coin or non circulating coin and etc. Museums collect these together, scientists publish them together (I know, I am one). In fact when you are for example running "Coins and Medals department" - hence the name, for example in the British Museum or Fitzwilliam in Cambridge or at Ashmolian Oxford or American Numismatic Society Collection in New York or Cabinet des medailles in Paris - hence the name, you collect them all, you catalogue them all together under their respective headings. The heading system depends on your institutional choice yes, but generally follows the same lines everywhere. Hence while British Museum is forming now a plastic credit card collection; Fitzwilliam has a huge collection of toy coins (spielmarken), ANS is very strong on New World and Spanish Exonumia, especially medals, cabinet des medailles has a huge collection of even art gems and cameos, which would have been put among jewellery had we been at it. But they knew that they were carved by the very same artists that carved the coin dies...
Why are you trying to discover America again? These public collections are online and you can stroll through their collections. Why do you want to invent a new system which will never satisfy others on the site? Copy theirs. And be open for creating new fields.
We all agree that the situation is a mess at the moment. The French referees already created their own separate tokens area https://en.numista.com/catalogue/french-states-1.html with 1258 items listed in it outside "Tokens - inside coins". Haven't you noticed that already? Obviously the present situation is unbearable for them and everyone is looking for different solutions. One Word to the person who created that area though: why then do we still have several hundred French tokens still left in the tokens area? Same thing happened when German notgeld were hidden inside Germany 1871-1946 inside coins section; Conder coins inside United Kingdom; Hard Times Tokens inside USA and etc.
So am I to understand that on Numista there is no visible sensible rule that applies to all? That referees bully each other in decisions and decide after many many needless quarrels where to put a coin to? So if a referee likes a coin type, or is convinced by a number of users to like it, these get carried under their respective countries where as there is no defending heros for lets say Bulgarian or Iraqi exonumia, and that they should stay in tokens with all other exiles?
But I can see why this is happening. We all own copies of books that cursed company Krause published - the volumes of World Coins. So anything that is in World Coins with a proper KM number is to be put inside coins section, and anything not in it should be dumped under tokens section. Wake up people, this is not going to work.
What you have now in numista is 45.000 coins roughly. Lets say 5000 of them are already listed under tokens. I am telling you, there are maybe 5-6000 more items inside coins area that does not have KM numbers and should have been inside tokens area if that was the system. So that makes every 5th or 4th coin listed on this site. And I am telling you, these are not "tokens" only, but should be called exonumia and include all that goes with that.
Then, something else must have been at play here also.
A psychological fact private indivudials like you and me though, have freedom to stay away from an item - maybe for example find a casino token extremely repulsive. So we tend to shy away from them and shout "take that ghastly thing from my eye sight before my appetite is ruined". I have been reading comments about this for the last 3 days. And I have been commenting above with arty examples and asking you to be fair - not all are bad, and there are similar numbers of ghastly ugly circulation coins around the world even now.
Any typical collector on Numista has a fair sized coin collection. Let me give my personal collection numbers here: 9000 coins, and plus to that maybe around 1000 exonumia items, that is tokens, medals, notgeld, conder tokens etc. So every collector here is strong on circulating coins that we all have and not that strong on exonumia that few of us may have seen or have. That is because a coin is minted in at least one million pieces, whereas medals for example in few thousands. Exonumia items are rare.
Rarity means the market is very specialized and very small.
Krause Publications is a factory of coin books. They produce coin catalogues for marketable areas. Hence you have apart from World coins, specialized Krause catalogues fo USA and Germany that list more trial strikes etc. They have a catalogue called "Unusual World Coins" and have given X numbers (for exonumia) to fantasy countries coinage. Hence Hutt River is included in that together with pre euro, private Ecus and coins of Atlantis
If the market for exonumia was big, Krause would jump in it. They jump and make books whenever they can. They would have made books for French or German notgeld, had the market for them was big enough. Thus we would have had them KM numbered also. Krause of course published Courtney L. Coffing's "A guide & checklist World Notgeld 1914-1947 And Other Local Issue Emergency Money" but this catalogue is very hard to use, incomplete and does not distinct between banknotes and other sorts of Money (metal, glass, porcelain, encapsulated stamps... )
So do you want to continue to follow 5 volumes of World coins and ignore everything else that exists and make and keep this site as a bad online copy of that? Or do you want to act more seriously and open minds to develop the site further? 31000 users from 200 countries mean if you take the second step, and this could be the biggest museum of Money that exists online. You could have Krause people reading you from here to analyse their market and maybe they already are
Quote: thespis26Ok, here is an abbrevated form of my previous message under another heading:
Exonumia collectors are around, they have clubs, sites, dealers, publications and online addresses. Similar discussions on how similar items should be classified is done all around: both in the scientific world and among the collectors.
I think on this site we should go like this:
- Country
--circulation coinage of that country
---uncirculating commemorative coinage of that country (minted by national mint)
----Exonumia of that country to be followed by all sorts of sub -headings you want. (trial strikes, piedforts, proofs, medals, medalets, tokens etc. etc. etc.)
You could close to see a country at whatever level you want. Or open to see all you want.
Really, all these are interest to numismatics as a whole; historically, artistically, geographically they all belong to the same country and are related.
Why was a separate place for tokens created in the first place and now why are we trying endlessly to separate them now from coins?
Lets keep them together but allow us "turn on" "turn off" buttons to see at what detail we want:):):)
-( turn on off? that must have sounded freaky there - somebody please correct my english:) )
Something to consider as well, many people use this site simply for reference. Take for example the many charms that pop up that look almost identical to Chinese cash coins. To someone who didn't know any better, they might think they were legit round metal objects used for payment. If we didn't list tokens on the site, they would just move on to the next site that actually has some useful information.
"What we are is not as important as what we aren't"
All of the discussions of improving the site, putting things in it proper place, etc., etc… is all well and very good. But, it's jumping into the middle of things and going both directions.
Until such time as the Numista site has been defined at the top, can the definition of anything filter down. Maybe on the French site of the house, Numista has been defined (but my French is not good enough to find out) and I can't find anything on the English side that does.
Once it has been defined what Numista is and what it is to become, can any defining be accomplished as to the different categories, sections or whatever. After it is defined, things can be put into order from the top down. Rules can be put into place after definitions are refined. Such as: What is a coin; what is a token; what is non-curculating issue, etc., etc,….
As, I see it now, there are rules and instructions but little to no definitions. That leaves a definition open to interpretation of the individual, and may be the reason things are a cluster ****.
It would be my guess, that once Numista is defined, it would involve restructuring of the Database.
You have to keep in mind that making one major change in an active database, can and mostly will, have a domino effect in errors. The best thing that could happen would be a rewrite of the database, incorporating the well thought ideas from the members and nit-picking (not coping) some functionality from other sites. Then the data from the old database would have to be migrated into the new one. When this is done, the majority of the time, there are extensive field formatting errors. Doing this would take several months of dedication...
? Format Format Format ? ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
The French are in fact at the moment actively discussing where to put their various "dernier tournois" coins - under Lyon or Paris mints... and I do not think any of them actually look or read the English language forum:):):):) Why in fact are there separate forums? This area at least could have been kept as one place so that people could try to follow discussions or suggestions on how to improve the site.
The site may be lacking many things and proper definitions explaining what part is for what, and where a coin should be listed or searched at. But that is another thing to discuss maybe later at a different heading. Because sorting out what to do with not "legal tender" objects or "exonumia" will not solve how to define them better; it will only be another step to get there.
What is suggested here is adding layers to each country. In fact this layer system already exists in the database. Remember this photo?:
When we search for example a country if we mark "all" we should be seeing all there exists about that country on the site. But we can even now decrease what we are seeing by marking or unmarking "circulating coins", "non-circulating" coins; "tokens"; "trial strikes" and I really do not know what this is: "including euros".
So each of these layers, (if the coins or objects are placed at their correct places) are in fact giving us lists of various different groups of numismatic material that belong to a country.
All I am saying is let us develop this further and use it more correctly. We should add more sub groups there to cover all exonumia items on the site. Then we will give the user a choice on what level he/she wants to see the information:
- Germany
-- all: All numismatic items of Germany on Numista
or
1a- Germany
1aa-- circulating coins of germany
1aaa----- German states
1aaaa --------Bavaria etc.
1bbb-----1871-1923
1ccc-----1923-1946
1ddd-----1946-1999
1eee-----1999-now euros
1bb---non circulating coins of Germany (Commemaratives)
1cc---notgeld of germany
1dd---tokens of germany (beer, telephone etc tokens)
1ee---privately minted commemaratives of germany
1ff---medals of Germany
1gg---trial strikes of Germany
etc etc etc
and keep all german items under Germany -
so a new user comes, he looks for a german item, whatever it is, he will get it at one place.
but at the moment German items are spread to 7-8 and French are spread to 6-7 different places that I could find on the site. And I am not talking about German East Afrca or French Polynesia but Germany and France only. This is hard to use and creates confusion.
Quote: neilithic*Should they be included into the relevant country under a sub heading similar to the way differing currencies are separated off?
This is my personal preference
For example, the New Zealand page would have the hyperlinks at the top:
*Pound (1840-1967)
*Dollar (1967-date)
*Tokens
Yes, I like you idea!
But I also think the same should happen to proof coins (because they don't circulate as well), so my country would be like this:
*Gulden (please don't use 'guilder' in the catalogue, guilder is just a tourist translation for gulden) (1807-1817)
*Gulden (decimalized, 1817-2001)
*Euro (2002-date)
*Proof coins
*Bullion coinage
*Tokens (that ALSO includes those horrible ECU-coins, they aren't and weren't accepted as legal tender, so they're just tokens)
I'd like the proof coins to be put in another section like above, either they should get their own section within the euros and guldens section.
Regards
"For by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing"
-Plato
The way I see it, once you take proof coin out of holder it pretty much becomes a circulating coin of same type. Yes, there is differences, but a random shopkeeper accepts the coin all the same thinking it just happens to be nice and shiny.
But I see where you are coming from and money, like 5 euro, 10 euro or 20 pound coins from UK - they are legal tender but technically they are not usable if you go to a shop with one wanting to buy bread . All that sort would not hurt to be put somehow one click away. Like suggested above.
Very interesting topic,
I will try to boost this topic on the French side as well, if they haven´t already.
I agree with what you are saying here thespis26 the tokens section is an absolute mess.
Last year I wanted to take initiative and started by marking tokens with categories that they should be in (Gaming Tokens, Casino Tokens, Conder Tokens and many many more). So I'm absolutely in for a change in this perspective.
Like many other users I also collect medals and tokens (French Royal insucance tokens + other pre 1900 tokens and Medals with Sail ships on them) so I have to say I would already be very happy with an organized tokens + Medals section. It's really painful when you see your 17th century Dutch token next to a token for a Spider-Man comic or whatever.
I have also been unpleasantly surprised when I added proof pattern coins from Liberia of the 1880-1890, Krause recently gave some of them X# catalogue numbers so they also landed in with crappy tokens, or my most recent purchase an undated Qriqualand Penny (1890) worth more than 1000€ that will surely also land into the Tokens section. So in this perspective I absolutely agree with you that we shouldn´t completely follow the Krause World Coins way.
But all those changes are going to be a painfully big workload. I think this should be done step by step.
P.S.: Of course Xavier should be notified of all this as this would be a massive improvement for the Numista quality.
Paul
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Thanks Phil, for the complimenting words; Sevgili Thespis Bey (Tolga Bey, acaba, galiba?), Dear Derf,
I think your views are of extreme importance to this site. Please keep on the good spirit of contribution, I wish this gets implemented. Obviously this site needs your serious mature experience and views. ... and I hope you will be successful reaching the objectives!
Imre
I think this may raise some French interest to the subject: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces52549.html
the pride of my French collection, a medal of Napoleon I, possibly the first to be uploaded to the site, having to go to "tokens" section:):):)
Where else was I to upload it? :):):)
Now it rests next to car wash tokens....:)
But I wish it was resting where it belongs; inside France, under France/exonumia, under France/exonumia/medals of France where it belongs. But no such place yet exists... This is the topic of all these messages I believe...
It is also going to be 5500th entry to the tokens section..... I had uploaded the 5000th only 2 months ago.... that is how fast that pile of exonumia we call "tokens section" is growing on this site...
It's certainly getting pretty large. The advertisement on the main page is "check you coin against more than 40,000 entries in our catalogue" but really it's 35,000 coins plus the tokens.
Check your coins against the 46,000 entries of the Numista catalog.
As of today 5524 of these are now in tokens section.
add on to that
notgeld, monnaie necessite, conder tokens, hard times tokens etc. etc. - that is all unofficial coins without a KM number - that remain inside coins sections... I would say there are maybe around 2000-3000 or more of these in the site....
so that makes a sum of 7500-8500 items or more listed in the site not issued by a "national mint"....
Let me remind with a few recent examples I have added to the site what we are talking about:
I hope you won't mind when I say that we are not questioning whether we want these on this site or not. They are here already 7000-8000 of them....
We are only trying to raise enough awareness about the danger the site is facing: they have to be better organized before too late. The existing system does not work and their numbers are increasing to unmanagable proportions fast... These objects are worth the effort given to them.
Let us better organize them so that we can all benefit from the information they are providing us...
I wouldn't touch those with a 10 foot barge pole, but to each their own I suppose.
At the rate the tokens section is growing the sooner it's organised the easier it's going to be to get everything into it's correct place. If it's left another year or two, like a lot of the suggestions for change take to implement, then we could find ourselves with well over 10,000 tokens to try and organise.
Quote: neilithicI wouldn't touch those with a 10 foot barge pole, but to each their own I suppose.
At the rate the tokens section is growing the sooner it's organised the easier it's going to be to get everything into it's correct place. If it's left another year or two, like a lot of the suggestions for change take to implement, then we could find ourselves with well over 10,000 tokens to try and organise.
But you have touched them my friends, and that 20 foot barge pole is not as long as you think...
Sorry to be nosy, but I visited both of your collections....
I must admit, Mr. Neilithic has the biggest Fiji collections I have ever seen. And he has no tokens, medals whatsoever yet...
Maybe only this (and I wish I had one too as it is a fantastic coin): https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces24515.html
Although it is a regular thaler, (KM 241) it never circulated and issued to be given to veterans of battle in their pension payments. Because of the inscription on it, the line between being a medal or a coin, or both is very much thin here:)
and if I am not mistaken, it says precisely "token" on it, listed as a token on Numista site and World Coins 19th century Krause book lists it as a token as well: (3rd edition, page 179, numbered Tn3)
The first is a coin that acted like a commemorative medal; the second is a token that acted as a coin...
This shows how thin that line is.....
The first is considered a coin, because Chester L. Krause says so (KM 241), although not a coin.
The second is considered a token, because Chester L. Krause says so (Tn. 3), although not a token.
How are we to list and present them in Numista? Where is the correct place to put them to?
and why are we separating these from each other?
Let us join them but after better organization in the site, allow us to filter how much we want to see and how much we do not want to see.
There are several examples like this and sometimes it's quite hard to define exactly where they should be. Here for example it's a medal but that circulated as a coin for a while https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces36681.html as I said earlier I will try to launch this conversation on the French side - I did not manage to yet as I am currently on a business trip.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
true true, they are very much regular items. but every collection starts from somewhere and we don't always have museum quality fantastic pieces to play with....
by the way, 3 of them are medals, 2 of them are tokens used as money (one of them a British conder token in fact) and 1 of them a rechenpfennig of which usage is shown here, so that comes with its own peculiar history and purpose:
it probably started its life there but ended up being used somewhere like here:
I don't collect tokens or medals but seem to acquire a lot. I've got dozens, maybe hundreds of state issued sales / luxury tax tokens. There are too good to throw away but nobody seems to collect them so I'm stuck with them. It's important to distinguish between well designed, historically interesting items and mere junk such as car wash tokens. However, this raises the question of who decides what is junk and what is worthwhile. If there was an easy solution then it would already have been implemented.
I send anything related to the British royals to my mother who loves that kind of stuff. It keeps her happy and even though they are not worth much in their own right she is the envy of all the other old biddies in her village so that's priceless.
Incidentally I'd be happy to touch any of those six items, with or without a bargepole. Dan and Neil are Philistines of the first order.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
To each their own, you like tokens, I don't. I picked up that Thaler for the brilliant price of NZ$5 because the person who was selling it had no idea what it was and couldn't be bothered doing the research to find out what it was.
Like I said, I spend enough money and have a wide enough range of interests and I can't possibly chase down coins in all of them so I limit myself, I don't buy tokens and medals and if I get them in bulk lots I sell them because they usually fetch good prices and give me more money to spend on the coins I want.
Here's one lot of NZ merchant tokens I'm currently selling. I got it from a bulk lot of 1700s and 1800s copper. I paid $125 for the lot of around 250-300 coins and these 10 tokens alone are going to win me back about a 1/3 of that.
Personally I don't like it when people look down on others for what they do and don't collect. I don't hassle others to start collecting zinc and aluminium coins because that is what I like. We all like different things and dislike different things, our differences are what make collecting interesting.
If you like tokens, leave it at that, stop trying to convince me that tokens are the bees knees. Would you keep trying to convince someone who hates brussel sprouts that they are the best vegetable and they should be eating them even if they don't like them?
Offtopic: neilithic, north of your city is a region that looks mountainous; why aren't any pictures on Google map and no names? Between Middlemarch and even above, Palmerston and Dunedin.
What's that region called?
There's not much in there except walking tracks, pigs and goats and deer which I go and hunt every couple of weeks. The area is called the "silverpeaks"
Hell yeah!! Have you tasted goat before? It's really good, like a gamey version of mutton. Goat is eaten all round the world, and if I can reduce the wild goat population which strips all the native vegetation off the land then that is an added bonus.
But back on topic. I would like to apologise to Thespis26 for my tone in replying to his messages. Hopefully we can continue this discussion and perhaps alert Xavier to this topic, as I believe there are plenty of good ideas about how to deal with the tokens section.
No apologies needed; but just don't run after I bombard you with these goats:):):)
We got wild goats; I think the ones you have are domestic goat turned wild; these were never domesticated and protected species. You can sometimes see them among ancient ruins up the mountains in Turkey, they are very shy animals and extremely hard to photograph, this is the most I could manage. We also have many wild boar, but let's leave that to another discussion
Goats of course amazed people of antiquity so they got featured on coins a lot:
of course on Numista we would have listed this following as a regular coin as it probably has a very decent KM number to go with it and a product of a respected official mint:
and we would have sent this marvelous art piece from American Numismatic Society collection into the tokens section on Numista, a medal by famous artist Pisanello, a renaisance master http://numismatics.org/collection/0000.999.56217
or these would end up in the tokens section:
and get mixed in a big soup:):):)
but a goat is a goat
and please read the very interesting life of the Goat Doctor from where I have taken the above pic http://oddfellowbooks.blogspot.com/
ah yes, we were discussing where to put the tokens and how to classify them; also whether they are wanted or not:):):):)
my motto is "if a coin exists it has to exist here as well" when I manage to say that in proper Latin, it will also look more respectful I hope:)
PS: I am still looking for my son's Star Wars token among his toys to upload to the site.
I just remembered I actually have 1 token in my collection. It's not on this site so doesn't show up in my collection, but I have an aluminium Dunedin tram token. I've done a far amount of work catalogueing and displaying the archived photographs from Dunedin's (my home town) old tram and cablecar network. I found an old token from the trams and kept it in my collection. It's the only one though because it had some personal meaning for me
Quote: thespis26In that case you have got to taste goat milk ice cream as well :):):) I bet you never heard of that before
That's a bet you would lose my friend :)
I had the pleasure of visiting your outstanding country shortly before moving to the USA (2001) and giving up flying. I also tried goats milk then but I tried goats milk cheese waaaay back at school when we were reading "Heidi" in Literature classes.
I believe I've eaten goat meat too but it was in the form of a heavily spiced kebab so it could equally have been cardboard.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
If you have eaten our food and still survive, then you have my every respect....
and for that reason I award you with the sight of these very beautiful goat coins from Turkey to complete our collection above...
Niue coins are a different kettle of fish altogether, as far as I can tell they don' actually have their own currency at all, all the coins they produce are non circulating commemoratives, so should they be counted as coins at all?
to rip off the collectors is more like it, and of course bigger countries also do that.... our national mint keeps on minting extremely expensive gold coins for collectors but so far I have never met anyone who collect them. They must be serving another sort of clientele that I am not in the circle of
Quote: thespis26to rip off the collectors is more like it, and of course bigger countries also do that.... our national mint keeps on minting extremely expensive gold coins for collectors but so far I have never met anyone who collect them. They must be serving another sort of clientele that I am not in the circle of
Sure other countries pump out the commems, but there aren't too many other countries that use another countries coins and then mint their own commems for collectors, which is why I suggested they might be counted as fantasy's rather than commems.
Quote: thespis26to rip off the collectors is more like it, and of course bigger countries also do that.... our national mint keeps on minting extremely expensive gold coins for collectors but so far I have never met anyone who collect them. They must be serving another sort of clientele that I am not in the circle of
I see there is much talk about medallions next to carwash tokens. If a country has enough tokens, you may send in a request with the country name and the genre in paranthesis (such as *Tokens* - France (medallions), *Tokens* - United States (elongated pennies)). Obviously it's not a perfect solution, but it's certainly a big step towards having the tokens more organized. Because medallions never circulated as coins, I still think that they deserve to remain in the respective *Tokens* section, but thespis26 is absolutely right that it should be renamed *Exonumia*; *Tokens* is too ambiguous for a section piled high of bus tokens, medallions, bullion rounds, gambling tokens, fantasies, modern fakes, plastic buttons, you name it.
Not to sound like a pretentious sonuvagun, but I think I may be one of the few members (not to say I'm the only one) who took a deep breath and swam through the long list that is the *Tokens* section, and there are some very easy ways to organize them, which I had mentioned just earlier. The question is who is willing to organize them? If anyone is interested, I will very happily verify any requests that are sent in (after all my tests are over, if I may add ).
Commemoratives nowadays are the mint's profit-minded way of producing coins, and looking at modern distasteful colorized coins, there is no reason why I decided to completely give up collecting commemoratives (they're up for swapping if anyone's interested).
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I'd like to tackle the US casino tokens.
For the currency, I just need to select "Other" then type in "United States (Casino Token)", yes?
Are we okay with "Casino Token" or would we prefer "Gaming Token"?
"What we are is not as important as what we aren't"
Gaming token implies both arcade tokens and Ike dollar-sized tokens, maybe "United States (casino tokens)" is a better idea, unless there is a different name for them.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I've both used and submitted to that catalog, but it's not very intuitive. In fact it can be downright painful to try and search for a specific coin sometimes.
"What we are is not as important as what we aren't"
Kenny, yes Casino Tokens is more fitting. Gaming tokens suggests to me Spiele Marke or the To Hanover "guineas".
I've just took a brief look at the tokens section and it appears to be in better shape than the last time I looked which was probably a year or more ago. So much so that I might consider adding what seems like an endless supply of junk tokens assuming there is somebody somewhere who loves them.
Has anyone ever swapped tokens for coins, or more to the point is anyone looking to do so? If there is no interest here I might be better putting them into broad categories and getting rid of them on Listia.
P.S. glorkar..... you are a trooper. It's not something that I would like to tackle. One thing does leap out at me is that some of the categories are in title case and some in lower case.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
US tokens looks better now, though I do not think this will solve our overall problem inside tokens, as USA is one country only among many and same organization will have to be done to each and everyone of them.
But let me stick with USA for the moment:
US has the following tokens sections inside proper coins as well (and they have sub sections):
I think I am right to presume,the USA tokens section is missing a lot of older tokens, especially old stuff, which were carried to the coinages section on purpose, because the thought is "they may have been used as Money" at some point. And no one objects to this.
If that is so; we can presume that the general trend is to carry eveything old to inside coinages of that particular country and leave everything modern, plastic etc. inside the tokens section. So notgeld, hard times tokens, conder tokens, monnaie necessite, civil war tokens and etc gets places for themselves inside the coinages.
So here is another line of thinking: Why don't we carry every item pre 1950 inside the coins section and leave everything modern inside tokens to end this discussion once for all?
It is a good discussion and getting everyone to agree or disagree will be difficult. To be honest I think we should shut the catalogue for two months and use the catalogue referees to sift the tokens.
Quote: pnightingaleKenny, yes Casino Tokens is more fitting. Gaming tokens suggests to me Spiele Marke or the To Hanover "guineas".
I think the word you're looking for is Play tokens, but this probably includes German rechenpfennig, or "counter tokens."
Glokar has been doing a terrific job organizing the tokens. Hopefully there is a day when the section is renamed *Exonumia* to give respect to medallions and old counter tokens.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Quote: pnightingaleP.S. glorkar..... you are a trooper. It's not something that I would like to tackle. One thing does leap out at me is that some of the categories are in title case and some in lower case.
Thanks Phil. I figured it'd be easy enough to start with something I was a least slightly familiar with. It'll be more of a challenge with the other countries.
I noticed the case issue as well. I'm not entirely sure how to edit a category though. I've only been able to create new and reassign.
"What we are is not as important as what we aren't"
Go for it! And I haven't really been able to do a whole lot yet. I did that little bit, but it all had to be approved. I'm still not technically the ref yet, so I've held off on updating and changing so that there won't be a backlog.
"What we are is not as important as what we aren't"
Forgive me for bumping an old but excellent discussion.
I just had to let Neill know that I had goat bhuna with jasmine rice for lunch today and it was magnificent. I've now officially joined the list of people who have knowingly eaten goat meat. It made me recall this very interesting discussion with the much missed Thespis.
I don't think I've ever encountered anyone as knowledgeable and passionate about tokens and his departure was a poor reflection on Numista.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Quote: pnightingaleForgive me for bumping an old but excellent discussion.
I just had to let Neill know that I had goat bhuna with jasmine rice for lunch today and it was magnificent. I've now officially joined the list of people who have knowingly eaten goat meat. It made me recall this very interesting discussion with the much missed Thespis.
I don't think I've ever encountered anyone as knowledgeable and passionate about tokens and his departure was a poor reflection on Numista.
Seems you've never tried Mexican cuisine. We have something called Barbacoa (maybe where the term BBQ originated from), but we use goat to prepare it. It has a strong smell, but tastes really good, I only like the meat as in any other animal, but there is people who loves extravagant parts; and not going to mention them because someone might get nauseous
Numista referee for the "Viceroyalty of the New Spain" (most of it).
History through coins.
Eli V
Speaking of goat. Next week I'm going to take my youngest boy on his first hunting trip to an area know to have lots of wild goats and pigs. Hopefully we'll be able to bring something nice back for the pot.
I have made comments and posted pictures in another thread on this topic, so will confine my remarks to this simple comment: ALL exonumia should be taken seriously on this site, if it, in turn, wishes to be taken seriously as a COMPLETE Numismatic Catalogue.
that must have sounded freaky there - somebody please correct my english:) ) 
)
). 
