British NAAFI POGS

These two item are British NAAFI POGS. The US AFEES POGS are listed in the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money.  

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces28087.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces28088.html

Are POGS acceptable to list in the catalog .. ??

What makes me wonder is why plastic play money is listed too...

But if those, along with wooden nickels are listed, we might as well have pogs listed too.

tokens do come in all shapes and varieties :):):)

we also have porcelain tokens among the German notgeld on the site if I am not mistaken.

and glass capsules containing stamps, among the French notgeld:):):)

plastic, wood, cardboard, glass, porcelain...:):):)

eventually the tokens area should be divided into more headings to make it more usable...

My question was, since they are listed in the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money, could/would/should they be listed on Numista…??

Quote: derfMy question was, since they are listed in the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money, could/would/should they be listed on Numista…??

   good reply???

They can be listed on Numista as "tokens," but they must stay in the tokens section.

Quote: SmartOneKgThey can be listed on Numista as "tokens," but they must stay in the tokens section.

sad but true !!!  

Quote: derfAre POGS acceptable to list in the catalog .. ??

The Tokens section is open to many things that are not coins. Numista catalog should be only for coins, not for money, medals, buttons,...

This is money, but not coins:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_one-dollar_bill
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces29628.html
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=pecunia

May I add a cow to the catalog?

Quote: zegeriThe Tokens section is open to many things that are not coins. Numista catalog should be only for coins, not for money, medals, buttons,...

Although I am new at the site, I am not new to numismatics and I totally disagree with that statement.  
I have been adding medals to the tokens section; and I have added there "reckoning counters" (rechtenpfennig) as well - both groups are not coins as the above statement defines but certainly numismatic items.

And I have seen a "cowrie Shell" on the site as well:) I congructulate the inclusion of that to the site.

I personally do not care how Money is defined by any author anywhere and neither should you:) because anything can be considered Money or let's say, "a medium for exchange" and through human history, every possible method and tool has been tried for this purpose; coins were not the first of these, nor last....

The cow (pecunnia) of the Romans or the Ionian Homeric value cow is in fact a much older - Bronze Age monetary unit commonly used in the Near East: check out this Egyptian weighing his gold to see how many "cow" it makes - yes cow was a monetary unit then and yes coins were not invented yet, but Money was and yes you should add a cow to the catalogue - maybe not any cow, but an example of this cow on the balance:


The site when it declares its name as "Numista" (wrongly spelled of course but there must be an explanation to it somewhere) and when it sets out to catalogue all, it agrees (unknowingly perhaps) to include everything associated with numismatics. So that is everything to do with Money and more. And when so many people set out to catalogue all these from around the world, of course interesting items will surface that no one has seen before or know how to evaluate. That is the fun of it. Our definition should not be for example  limited by Krause Publications - World Coins - otherwise the site could only remain a bad online copy of that.  

Tokens, medals and other associated material are in fact called "exonumia". These items are usually designed and minted by artists, private companies or national mints for various reasons. The same people or institutions create and produce circulating coins. Some of the exonumia are in fact more beautiful than our traditional "circulating" coins:


As collectors, many people do not stop only with circulating coins; a lot of collections develop eventually to include commemarative coins not intended for circulation; tokens and etc; and eventually medalets, medals, medallions and more... The fun is hidden in the fact that there is no end to it and no one knows what a collection will develop to. Even a minör subject may turn into a major collection...

As a science, numismatics never allows itself to study only "coins" - otherwise it would have died out immediately after any coin catalogue is published. Numismatics includes everything that can be associated with mediums of exchange....

Museums do not make distinctions between "circulation" coins and exonumia items, they collect them all. Check out Fitzwilliam Museum which has one of the most interesting "toy coin" spielmarken collection anywhere. http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/opac/search/searchcm.html
British Museum, department of coins and medals is forming one of the biggest collections of "plastic credit cards" that exists.

As site users or developers, why should any of us limit ourselves? If we have or know about a material, let's add it. Are we running out of space on the internet? Is it that difficult to create new headings, groups, subgroups on the site? Why would inclusion of this or that disturb us? Are we not hungry for new knowledge? New dimensions? New thoughts?

excuse me for my numbers not being precise (and please also for all my spelling mistakes:):)):

The site now has 45000 items listed on this site. 5000 of that (that is every 9th item) is listed inside "tokens" section. The tokens section does not include all the tokens though. For example French tokens have declared their independence for unknown reasons and are now listed here https://en.numista.com/catalogue/french-states-1.html under French Cities, which should have included only the French notgeld.  And the German notgeld are hidden somewhere inside Germany 1871-1946, though they should have been maybe independant of that area for ease of use. And here is the link for the argument whether conder tokens should be listed inside UK or inside tokens section: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic24752.html

With more tokens here and there outside tokens section, and lets admit it, with uncirculating commemaratives, the site already has more coins and other items that never circulated, or were never intended to circulate as they did than the circulating coins, the traditional metal currencies of the World nations.

The "Tokens" section also has coins of "unrecognized nations" like (The Turkish republic of) Northern Cyprus https://en.numista.com/catalogue/tokens-393.html#devise1258 or Palestine https://en.numista.com/catalogue/tokens-396.html#devise1251 (that has a seat in the UN) etc, that could immediately develop into recognized nations and moved to their independent spots among the country list. (alas, the country list of course already has many of these like Abkhazia - not yet an UN member, has no national mint, uses Russian roubles as currency and a state only recognized by Russia). Anyway, obviously these items can not be defined as "tokens", but more in the line of "unusual coins" - Krause in fact has a catalogue for those as well:)

So why should we limit ourselves and not push for more fields, items, categories, headings on this site to share what we know?

If numista closes its doors to development, the users will push off eventually to other sites that agree to develop...that is the unfortunate law of the internet world and the internet users are like cats - they (we) stay not because we love being loved, but because a place is warm and provides food - here the warmness is the site friendliness and food is the thoughts for the mind.  

If a coin (or coinlike object ) is missing on the site, lets add it.

Maybe one day we may even see numista for banknotes and then argue whether we should carry the pogs there or leave them here......why not?




 

Well said.

Personally I'd prefer not to have tokens on the site at all, but that's just me because I don't collect them myself and I'm a grumpy old man  

Hey Nelithic, I am not young anymore either:):):)

Let us not keep this discussion on "tokens" as a section in Numista but Exonumia as a whole...

What have you got against tokens? Up to recently I would never have defended them myself; but the more I learn about them, the more I like them.

When you think where some of them come from:



or where they had been used before



and how some of them show the social history of simple folk like you and me (I believe this is associated with your neighbour down under - a convict carved a penny for his family before he got transported to Australia)



and how some are very very political


don't you just love them?

No tokens = dull site. I have World coins books already; why would I want all that online only as well?
Tokens, medals and exonumia = we learn something new each day.

Like I said, personal preference, I don't collect tokens.  We can't all like the same things and I like silver, zinc and aluminium coins plus circulating pre world war 2 coins.  That gives me enough to collect and makes me spend too much money as it is without adding tokens into the mix.  If it ain't from a government mint, I don't want it.  

To me the tokens make the whole site messy since some people put them in the countries section and we always seem to be having debates about whether something should go in the tokens section or be added alongside the countries coins.

Quote: neilithicIf it ain't from a government mint, I don't want it.

Some are very much produced by goverments and minted in National Mints- military medals for example:)

Quote: neilithicTo me the tokens make the whole site messy since some people put them in the countries section and we always seem to be having debates about whether something should go in the tokens section or be added alongside the countries coins.

I totally agree with that. All the Exonumia should be put into their respective places on the site. We really do not need to have notgeld, city coins, restaurant tokens, beer tokens amongst the circulation coins. And I am going to aim at my same example : https://en.numista.com/catalogue/french-states-1.html contains 1258 items now inside proper coins, but in fact all of them tokens and none are placed in the tokens section but they all should.

Now having tokens misplaced amongst the coins is one thing.

Having a need to better organize and divide tokens section inside itself is another thing.

Why not have separate headers for medals? Private - local Commemorative coins (eg. monnaies de Paris) and notgeld as a start? And be open to create more as they come.

Why is there this hesitation to create more files and put everything into their respective places?

I wish we had done this discussion under a title like for example "how to treat our exonumia on this site" instead of littering "the British  pogs" discussion so that more people could have voiced their opinions:)

Quote: thespis26I wish we had done this discussion under a title like for example "how to treat our exonumia on this site" instead of littering "the British  pogs" discussion so that more people could have voiced their opinions:)

I'll start a new thread then, here you go https://en.numista.com/forum/topic24853.html#p202814

I would very much like to see US ARMY pogs and British NAAFI pogs here on Numista. They are flown into Iraq and Afghanistan to be used as money/coins/change whatever because of the weight issues with crates full of quarters, dimes, nickels and cents.
I have hundreds of em , so...
But this is only my opinion.

Quote: "tinuss"​I would very much like to see US ARMY pogs and British NAAFI pogs here on Numista. They are flown into Iraq and Afghanistan to be used as money/coins/change whatever because of the weight issues with crates full of quarters, dimes, nickels and cents.
​I have hundreds of em , so...
​But this is only my opinion.

​

The American pogs are listed in the Pick Specialised catalogue,but the British ones are not listed at all.

To me,the pogs are a halfway between banknotes & coins.

As they have official status,they should be listed in the coin catalogue under their own headings categorised by series.

I have just received my first British pog - a 2010 25 Cents from the N.A.A.F.I.'s 90th. Anniversary commemorative issue.

Aidan.