new issuers "East Asia Islamic states" & "East Asia Indianized kingdoms"

Hello, lets classify the East Asia  tin/islamic sultanates coinage under one higher issuer like on Zeno.ru

The idea is similar to: Islamic sultanates

East Asia Islamic sultanates

• malaysia_islamic_states (Break up into different issuers, or just sub issuers under Malaysia islamic states)
• Sultanate of Demak (below are Indonesian islamic states, same can be done as above)
• Sultanate of Aceh
• Bangka Island
• Sultanate of Banten
• Sultanate of Batubara
• Sultanate of Bone
• Sultanate of Deli
• Sultanate of Gowa
• Sultanate of Indragiri
• Sultanate of Jambi
• Kongsi Federation
• Sultanate of Palembang
• Sultanate of Pontianak
• Sultanate of Samudra-Pasai
• Sultanate of Siak
• Sultanate of Sumenep
  East Asia Indianized kingdoms
• Srivijaya
• Java (only non colonial types!)
• Melayu Kingdom (classified in zeno.ru as part of srivijaya, maybe because of short span? @Reslumi )
• Ma-Yi(make new issuer like Philippines (Ma-yi)
• Kalah (make new issuer like Malay Peninsula (Kalah)

Semi related tasks:

1. Add  Maluka, State of under british east indies as shown here: Maluka (South Borneo), 1812-1826 
2. Do like above, but for Java as shown here: British Occupation of Java, 1811-1816
3.  

Zeno is behind the times on the Melayu Kingdom/Kingdom of Jambi. It was an independent state that existed after the fall of Srivijaya, and is only included there on Zeno bcs it was located in Sumatra

Here is a visualization of how the issuers should be divided up in my opinion. Issuers that are labeled as not yet added I will be making requests for in the coming days. Upper and Lower Jambi have been requested for a few weeks with no action so far, so once they can be gotten around to they can be factored in. Issuers in italics are already in the proper location, and are just included to show the full scope of the proposed catalog

Maritime Southeast Asia

----- Islamic Sultanates

---------- Sultanate of Johor

---------- Sultanate of Kedah

---------- Sultanate of Kelantan

---------- Sultanate of Malacca

---------- Sultanate of Pahang

---------- Sultanate of Patani

---------- Sultanate of Perak

---------- Sultanate of Selangor

---------- Kingdom of Perlis

---------- Sultanate of Trengganu

---------- Sultanate of Aceh

---------- Sultanate of Banten

---------- Sultanate of Batubara

---------- Sultanate of Bone

---------- Sultanate of Demak

---------- Sultanate of Gowa

---------- Sultanate of Indragiri

---------- Sultanate of Palembang

---------- Sultanate of Pontianak

---------- Sultanate of Samudra-Pasai

---------- Sultanate of Siak

---------- Sultanate of Sumenep

---------- Sultanate of Deli

---------- Sultanate of Sulu

---------- Sultanate of Sintang (Yet to be added to Numista)

---------- Sultanate of Tidung (Yet to be added to Numista)

---------- Sultanate of Jambi

--------------- Sultanate of Jambi

--------------- Upper Jambi (Hulu) (Pending creation to Numista, must be added by mods)

--------------- Lower Jambi (Hilir) (Pending creation to Numista, must be added by mods)

----- Indianized Kingdoms

---------- Srivijaya

---------- Java (Including ONLY native coinage)

---------- Melayu Kingdom

---------- Kingdom of Ma-Yi (Must be added to Numista)

---------- Kingdom of Kalah (Must be added to Numista)

----- Uncertain Maritime Southeast Asia (Current issuer “Maritime Southeast Asia” should have its name changed to reflect the unknown attributions of the coins it contains)

----- Chinese Communities

---------- Bangka Island

---------- Kongsi Federation

Indonesia

----- Indonesian States

---------- Riau

---------- Irian Jaya

---------- Netherlands East Indies

---------------- Netherlands East Indies

----------------- Dutch New Guinea

---------------- Dutch Java (For the colonial issues in Java, which must be separated from the native coinage)

British East Indies

----- British Singapore

----- Penang

----- Sumatra

----- State of Maluka

This set up mirrors the setup of Zeno, as @Coinwalla mentioned before. The histories, peoples, and coinage of the Indonesian, Malaysian, and one Filipino Islamic Sultanates were very intertwined, making their separation within the catalog unhelpful. This suggestion helps keep the Islamic States together, differentiates between the Indianized Kingdoms, and the issuer we currently use as a repository for uncertain types. This setup also mirrors the current set up of the issuer “Central Asia” (which I ref for), and is set up in the most straightforward way for both collectors of the types as well as Numista users who are new to the coinage of the region to understand. I would hope this proposed set up for Maritime Southeast Asia would be more straightforward and easier to understand as well.

I would also like to ping @by.abay. As the current ref for pre-modern Southeast Asian, their input would be very valuable, and their agreement with this move would be 100% necessary for this to proceed.

Reslumi

Here is a visualization of how the issuers should be divided up in my opinion. Issuers that are labeled as not yet added I will be making requests for in the coming days. Upper and Lower Jambi have been requested for a few weeks with no action so far, so once they can be gotten around to they can be factored in. Issuers in italics are already in the proper location, and are just included to show the full scope of the proposed catalog

 

Maritime Southeast Asia

----- Islamic Sultanates

---------- Sultanate of Johor

---------- Sultanate of Kedah

---------- Sultanate of Kelantan

---------- Sultanate of Malacca

---------- Sultanate of Pahang

---------- Sultanate of Patani

---------- Sultanate of Perak

---------- Sultanate of Selangor

---------- Kingdom of Perlis

---------- Sultanate of Trengganu

---------- Sultanate of Aceh

---------- Sultanate of Banten

---------- Sultanate of Batubara

---------- Sultanate of Bone

---------- Sultanate of Demak

---------- Sultanate of Gowa

---------- Sultanate of Indrgiri

---------- Sultanate of Palembang

---------- Sultanate of Pontianak

---------- Sultanate of Samudra-Pasai

---------- Sultanate of Siak

---------- Sultanate of Sumenep

---------- Sultanate of Deli

---------- Sultanate of Sulu

---------- Bangka Island

---------- Kongsi Federation

---------- Sultanate of Sintang (Yet to be added to Numista)

---------- Sultanate of Tidung (Yet to be added to Numista)

---------- Sultanate of Jambi

--------------- Sultanate of Jambi

--------------- Upper Jambi (Hulu) (Pending creation to Numista, must be added by mods)

--------------- Lower Jambi (Hilir) (Pending creation to Numista, must be added by mods)

----- Indianized Kingdoms

---------- Srivijaya

---------- Java (Including ONLY native coinage)

---------- Melayu Kingdom

---------- Kingdom of Ma-Yi (Must be added to Numista)

---------- Kingdom of Kalah (Must be added to Numista)

----- Uncertain Maritime Southeast Asia (Current issuer “Maritime Southeast Asia” should have its name changed to reflect the unknown attributions of the coins it contains)

 

Indonesia

----- Indonesian States

---------- Riau

---------- Irian Jaya

---------- Dutch New Guinea

---------- Netherlands East Indies

---------------- Netherlands East Indies

---------------- Dutch Java (For the colonial issues in Java, which must be separated from the native coinage)

 

British East Indies

----- British Singapore

----- Penang

----- Sumatra

----- State of Maluka

 

This set up mirrors the setup of Zeno, as @Coinwalla mentioned before. The histories, peoples, and coinage of the Indonesian, Malaysian, and one Filipino Islamic Sultanates were very intertwined, making their separation within the catalog unhelpful. This suggestion helps keep the Islamic States together, differentiates between the Indianized Kingdoms, and the issuer we currently use as a repository for uncertain types. This setup also mirrors the current set up of the issuer “Central Asia” (which I ref for), and is set up in the most straightforward way for both collectors of the types as well as Numista users who are new to the coinage of the region to understand. I would hope this proposed set up for Maritime Southeast Asia would be more straightforward and easier to understand as well.

 

I would also like to ping @by.abay. As the current ref for pre-modern Southeast Asian, their input would be very valuable, and their agreement with this move would be 100% necessary for this to proceed.

As a long term collector and researcher of the Indianized kingdoms of nusantara, i can confirm that this change would bring numista most in line to our current understanding of the numismatic classification of SEA as it is known today. i strongly recommend these changes are implemented. 

by and large, i think this is a fair division. although I have some notes/questions:
 

1) Indrgiri > Indragiri (typo)
 

2) Kongsi Federation & Bangka Island

Should Bangka Island be sorted under Palembang Sultanate? referring to Palembang coin literature

The Kongsi Federation coins in question seems to be the ones operating in Borneo which allied themselves with Sultanate of Sambas, but their political arrangement is somewhat more independent than the Chinese confederations/tin miners in Bangka

Should perhaps these two sorted under each other:

---------- Kongsi Federation (for coins of Heshun, Dagang, and others that might operate inter regionally)
--------------- Bangka Island (for Bangka tin coins)

3) for the Indianized state, I think Srivijaya and Melayu Kingdom may see a lot overlaps since all coins attributed to both states have poor provenance and Melayu succeeded Srivijaya but with unclear delineation. I'm not sure whether they should be separated or just put in a single category.

4) I assume the singaporean merchant token would be sorted under

British East Indies

----- British Singapore

?

by.abay

by and large, i think this is a fair division. although I have some notes/questions:
 

1) Indrgiri > Indragiri (typo)
 

2) Kongsi Federation & Bangka Island

Should Bangka Island be sorted under Palembang Sultanate? referring to Palembang coin literature

 

The Kongsi Federation coins in question seems to be the ones operating in Borneo which allied themselves with Sultanate of Sambas, but their political arrangement is somewhat more independent than the Chinese confederations/tin miners in Bangka

 

Should perhaps these two sorted under each other:

---------- Kongsi Federation (for coins of Heshun, Dagang, and others that might operate inter regionally)
--------------- Bangka Island (for Bangka tin coins)

3) for the Indianized state, I think Srivijaya and Melayu Kingdom may see a lot overlaps since all coins attributed to both states have poor provenance and Melayu succeeded Srivijaya but with unclear delineation. I'm not sure whether they should be separated or just put in a single category.

4) I assume the singaporean merchant token would be sorted under

 

British East Indies

----- British Singapore

?

 

Indragiri was a typo yes haha.

The Kongsi and Bangka coins were ones I hesitated to add where I did, as they were not explicitly Islamic states. I would agree that they could be better placed in the catalog, perhaps as an additional 2nd level issuer under the broader “Maritime Southeast Asia” issuer like you suggested. I edited the breakdown to include “Chinese Colonies” for those two issuers, let me know if that makes sense to you!

British Singaporean tokens are sorted under “British Singapore”, yes

Then I agree with the overall division. Much more orderly. A minor input perhaps the term "Chinese colonies" should be changed to "Chinese communities." Chinese imitations emanating from chinese communities but with unclear issuer (like N#107795) can be sorted under that

Please move dutch New guinea under Dutch east indies, why is it under indonesian states??

Overall, as always, good work @Reslumi 

we should also add a period under palembang sultanate for british occupation, even though @by.abay refuted the theory, Zeno has it catalogued, and one post within the section on zeno gives a clear inscription reading, and possible previous errors in reading, regards.

Coinwalla

Overall, as always, good work @Reslumi 

we should also add a period under palembang sultanate for british occupation, even though @by.abay refuted the theory, Zeno has it catalogued, and one post within the section on zeno gives a clear inscription reading, and possible previous errors in reading, regards.

@by.abay is the ref, if they refute the theory, it shouldn’t be added. Besides, that’s not a proper issuer by Numista standards anyways. At MOST it would be a ruling authority within Palembang. I am not a ref for Southeast Asia by the way, just a collector; I cannot override by.abay‘s decisions, and I defer to their expertise in this field. If they do not believe the supposed “British Occupation” of Palembang is a legitimate addition to the catalog, it likely shouldn’t be added. I too am skeptical of the attribution. 

I agree that even if we accept the British inscription of that coin, adding a distinct british section under palembang may not be necessary. the palembang court and sultan was not abolished by the british, and the issuer is still palembang court. Possible british affiliation is already included as information in comment section