Hungary 20 kreuzer km447 mule

N#33839

I have tried to set up the documentation of the origins, and it simply doesn't add up

the difference is the small rosette which is on the wrong obverse (km445.1), here is my logic used on the coins I've been able to see as the origins of the mule:

In SCWC the wrong images are used as well, since I can see the restrike rosette as well on the obverse:

What do you think?

the origin coins are

km445 N#33841

km446 N#20875

Comments are welcome, since I might wrong, because I do not understand the restrike possibility of the km447?

Maybe a Hungarian numismatists organisation or Viktor Orbán can help. 

I'm a little confused (actually a lot confused).  Where is the rosette?  Is this for the KM447 or KM444 mule?

Here is the “rosette” as in restrike…

Here is the right mule number, again one my reuse errors! Thanks for telling me.

Thanks. Next question N#33839 The reverse lettering/year doesn't match the coin pictured.  And why do you say this is KM445.1?  KM445.1 in Numista is on this page N#33841  .  Not complaining, just trying to understand what's what.

rsirian1

Thanks. Next question N#33839 The reverse lettering/year doesn't match the coin pictured.  And why do you say this is KM445.1?  KM445.1 in Numista is on this page N#33841  .  Not complaining, just trying to understand what's what.

N#33839  is km447

445.1 is this restrike, but no pearl!

446.1 is this, pearl, but no restrike!

This page N#33839 is messed up and doesn't have KM447 as a reference.

This is the Numista page for KM445.1  N#33841 (no coin picture)

But has this picture on the 1986 G.F.Y. year line

Signed,

Still Confused

I know that numista is missing the km447, but the SCWC has it. 

and with the rosette! That's why think we have to remedy Numista to correspond to SCWC, that why I have tried to say, that numista mixed it all up for this mule and the sources of the same mule. I don't have a Schön catalog, which might help us further?

@farkyyy can you help us a bit?

Hi.

I found the coin you were looking for.

I have assigned the reference number. (KM#447)

N#33839

And this discrepancy?

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic169537.html#p1297021

farkyyy

Hi.

I found the coin you were looking for.

I have assigned the reference number. (KM#447)

 

N#33839

And which comments do you @farkyyy have on this?

I'm still baffled:

The H2152 is this (how can it be two differents coins?). The 1870 coin doesn't have the restrike rosette!!!!!

The H2154 is this (how can it be the same two coins again? Same comment as above.

I have tried to search for a restrike coin as shown on the mule and I have come to this

and as before I don't understand why it's a mule, since it seems to be jus a normal km446.1 coin, nothing more, nothing less, so where is the error? Can somebody show us what the Schön catalog shows? If it's shown there, since I cannot see any reference number to the catalog. Are there any Hungarian literature showing or talking about this mule?

Sjoelund

 

I have tried to search for a restrike coin as shown on the mule and I have come to this

and as before I don't understand why it's a mule, since it seems to be jus a normal km446.1 coin, nothing more, nothing less, so where is the error? Can somebody show us what the Schön catalog shows? If it's shown there, since I cannot see any reference number to the catalog. Are there any Hungarian literature showing or talking about this mule?

The 446 reverse image is wrong. 445 and 447 have VALTO PENZ, 446 has MAGYAR KIRALYI VALTO PENZ.

bjherbison

 

The 446 reverse image is wrong. 445 and 447 have VALTO PENZ, 446 has MAGYAR KIRALYI VALTO PENZ.

You're right, I found the image now used on PCGS.

OK, now?

…and the lettering on the KM447 page is still wrong even though the date in the lettering was fixed.  N#33839

rsirian1

…and the lettering on the KM447 page is still wrong even though the date in the lettering was fixed.  N#33839

And the references are not to KM#.

If the graphic is OK, I'll make the CR with all the changes?

Sjoelund

bjherbison

 

The 446 reverse image is wrong. 445 and 447 have VALTO PENZ, 446 has MAGYAR KIRALYI VALTO PENZ.

You're right, I found the image now used on PCGS.

OK, now?

It still doesn't look like a mule of 445 and 446. I didn't check references, but in your latest diagram the obverse of 445 and 446 are the same and the “mule” 447 has an obverse that is different.

The obverses are different , it's the rosette telling us it's a restrike, which tells the two obverses a part!

To be a little more explicit:

From your diagram KM# 446 has no relationship with KM# 447. KM# 447 has different legends on the obverse and reverse from kM# 446,

bjherbison

To be a little more explicit:

 

From your diagram KM# 446 has no relationship with KM# 447. KM# 447 has different legends on the obverse and reverse from kM# 446,

yes, dies from KM446 could not have been used to make mule KM447.

That's true, so the search goes on

but are we sure about the images of the 447?

The image from SCWC confirms The image in numista

I'm afraid we'll have to accept it was made from KM452.1 from1870, since it'a restrike, why not?

So the new version?

OK, Now?

Sjoelund

 Can somebody show us what the Schön catalog shows?

This time frame is before Schön, but Kahnt/Schön has three 20 Krajczár types for Franz Joseph. All have both GYF and KB mintage lines.

Kahnt/Schön# 27 :

1868; ...KIRÁLYA / VÁLTÓ PÉNZ

Also a resrike with KB “with the mark X”.

KM# 445

Kahnt/Schön# 29 :

1868-1869; ...KIRÁLYA, MAGYAR KIRÁLYI VÁLTÓ PÉNZ

KM# 446

Kahnt/Schön# 31 :

1868, 1870-1873; ...KIR; VÁLTÓ PÉNZ

The 1871 is a 25 example release issued in 1885.

Also an 1870 restrike with “with the mark X”.

This matches KM# 447 (1868) and KM# 452 (1870-1872). No mention of the rosette.

I'll submit change requests to add these reference codes.

The rosette is a very important part of the mule, so it HAS to be there…..

Sorry, but I don't know the #KM reference numbers.

This information come from Adamo catalog…

1868 K.B.   VÁLTÓ PÉNZ

1868 K.B.   MK. VÁLTÓ PÉNZ (1.600.000)

1868 K.B.   I-K-A-CS,VP (Rare)

1868 K.B.   MK. VÁLTÓ PÉNZ "Aluminium TrialStrike" (Rare)

1868 K.B.   MK. VÁLTÓ PÉNZ "Copper TrialStrike" (Rare)

1868 K.B.   I-K-A-CS,VP "Lead TrialStrike" (Rare)

1868 K.B.   MK. VÁLTÓ PÉNZ with Rosette (Artex Restrike 1.000pcs)

1868 K.B.   I-K-A-CS,VP with Rosette (Artex Restrike 1.000pcs)

Sjoelund

 

So the new version?

OK, Now?

I agree. I can't find any fault with this.  KM447 = KM445.1(R) + KM452.1(O)  Matches perfectly with NGC's pictures of KM477.

CR made with the modifications indicated by @rsirian1 (The year had been modified already)

I just noticed something that's still not right.  The mule coin page N#33839 states:

Obverse of H#2154 - more complicated legend

Reverse of H#2152 - more complicated legend

I don't know what “more complicated legend” means but here are the obverse and reversed referenced:

H#2154 (KM452.1) N#19928

H#2152 (KM446.1) N#20875

So the reverse picture on the mule page which matches the picture in SCWC (and in the new graphic) doesn't match the reverse lettering on the mule page or the reverse picture of H#2152. 

So either there are two different mules or H#2152 reference is wrong and needs to be changed to H#2150 (KM445.1) (plus the change for the reverse lettering).

I think we can forget the Hungarian catalog, which is absolutely not precise in the descriptions. 

NGC has the same mule as SCWC and Numista and now my documentation is also aligned to those .

Obverse

Obverse of H#2154 - more complicated legend

Should be obverse of km#452.1 only

Reverse

Reverse of H#2152 - more complicated legend

Should be reverse of km445.1 only

I have modified my CR to include that.

Did you revise the reverse lettering to match the coin shown?

yessir.