7 non existent varieties [solved]

1 1000 lire Italian coin lists Proof variety which doesn't exist.

N#7454

6 500 lire Italian coins list Proof varieties which don't exist.

N#7346

N#7276

N#12013

N#31215

N#12015

N#12016

the first commemorative proof 500 Lire was minted only in 1985 

N#12017

can you please delete the non existent varieties?

SCWC reports them all as Prooflike, not Proof. You can submit the changes to the year line comments yourself.

@rsirian1no problem in proposing to change Proof to Prooflike in every coin, but if definition of Prooflike is

Each time the dies were polished, the first couple hundred coins would be struck with Proof-Like fields

how can you know which N#12013 coins were struck first out of  268.280 ?

moreover these 500 lire were sold in a mint set, how can you check the coins?

by the way https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=162 and https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=2862 , references for Italian coins, list these 7 coins as FDC (Fior Di Conio i.e. UNC).

FS (Fondo di Specchio i.e. PROOF) for these 7 coins do not exist

Usually Prooflike coins come in sets from the mint. I assume (maybe wrongly) that the Numista members that entered their coins in the Proof year line did so because they were in a set with some documentation from the mint. I do know that if the year line on all those coins are removed and all members have their coins dumped into the non-special year line there will be many upset members. For N#12013 that would be 22 members.  I think this should be discussed with the referee @cobrapel Since SCWC uses the classification Prooflike it's good to understand the definition:

@rsirian1 looking at this clear definition we can observe that no special care was taken to mint these coins 

moreover if we want to make a distinction between loose coins and coins in a set it would be maybe better to use the set feature - I’m waiting for 28 Italian sets to be approved to create sets for these 7 coins

Numista is full of Prooflike, SMSs, BUs, etc. coin year lines depending on which referee is in charge. If the mint put out a Mint Set of Prooflike coins then they would need to be there on each coin page to create a set. In this case the referee will be the one to decide not you or I. 

Sorry  I wasn’t clear. These coins are not proof like, they are standard minted coins put in a set. 

@cobrapel what is your opinion?

Probably it was a misunderstanding between the word proof and italian “prova”.

Proof variety for this coin doesn't exist indeed.

@cobrapel thank you for confirming that proof varieties don't exist for these 7 coins.

what it the procedure to delete them?

@ZacUK  should this topic be moved to "Numista coin catalog" section?

cippirimerlo

@cobrapel thank you for confirming that proof varieties don't exist for these 7 coins.

what it the procedure to delete them?

 

Only admin or master referees can move or merge year lines.

cobrapel

cippirimerlo

@cobrapel thank you for confirming that proof varieties don't exist for these 7 coins.

what it the procedure to delete them?

 

Only admin or master referees can move or merge year lines.

@ZacUK  thank you for moving this topic to the right scetion

would it be possible to delete proof varieties or to merge them to standard varieties for these 7 coins?

cippirimerlo

1 1000 lire Italian coin lists Proof variety which doesn't exist.

 

N#7454

 

6 500 lire Italian coins list Proof varieties which don't exist.

 

N#7346

N#7276

N#12013

N#31215

N#12015

N#12016

 

the first commemorative proof 500 Lire was minted only in 1985 

N#12017

 

can you please delete the non existent varieties?

 

 If the Referee agrees with that list, I can have a look … 

ZacUK

cippirimerlo

1 1000 lire Italian coin lists Proof variety which doesn't exist.

 

N#7454

 

6 500 lire Italian coins list Proof varieties which don't exist.

 

N#7346

N#7276

N#12013

N#31215

N#12015

N#12016

 

the first commemorative proof 500 Lire was minted only in 1985 

N#12017

 

can you please delete the non existent varieties?

 

 If the Referee agrees with that list, I can have a look … 

@cobrapel the list is ok for you?

I agree about the editing 

cobrapel

I agree about the editing 

Are you sure these Proof lines aren't really BU's that SCWC says are Prooflike and packed by the Mint like this?  Just want to make sure before you move a lot of members from a Prooflike line to a non-Prooflike line. For this coin that's about 80 members.

Montenegro https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=2862 reference for Italian coins doesn't mention any prooflike

And Gigante neither 

https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=162

@ZacUK do you need any more information to proceed? 

 Does not have to be me - was just mentioning it. Others in the team can also do it. 

Worrying reply - https://en.numista.com/forum/topic163265.html#p1263377 

 Furthermore, I only mentioned it as I know what to do on Numista pages. 

I do NOT know about every coin of every country, and have no catalogues. 

Relying on advice whether the pages 100% need changing - 

no way of telling if that advice is correct. 

 Example - that first link 

N#7454 

The page has been on here for 16 years - why has any error not 

been mentioned before now? Just asking. 

@ZacUK thank  you for your reply 

ZacUK

 Example - that first link 

N#7454 

The page has been on here for 16 years - why has any error not 

been mentioned before now? Just asking. 

maybe nobody cares?

ZacUK

 Furthermore, I only mentioned it as I know what to do on Numista pages. 

I do NOT know about every coin of every country, and have no catalogues. 

Relying on advice whether the pages 100% need changing - 

no way of telling if that advice is correct. 

see my posts above for Italian references 

Should this one be on the list also?  N#12014 45 members think they have a Prooflike version.

@rsirian1  you are right, please find below the complete list of italian silver commemorative coins existing only in BU and not in proof (12 coins)

Table from  https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=162, coins minted also in proof show double reference 422/P i.e. 422 and 422P 

N#7454

N#7345

N#7346

N#7276

N#12013

N#12014

N#12015

N#31215

N#12016

N#12022

N#12023

N#12024

So if I look at that list the first one N#7454 was minted in BU only (all 3,011,000)? Or were there some minted as business strike (circulation quality) and others as BU?  Or by BU do you really mean UNC for that value column the way Numista does for grade values:

I'm just trying to understand why SCWC lists Prooflike quality for so many of the coins if they never existed.

@rsirian1 probably because https://en.numista.com/catalogue/mint.php?id=22 sold them in sets https://en.numista.com/forum/topic108347-2.html#p1264125

@rsirian1 speaking about N#7454

3.011.000 or 3.140.000 (manuals don't agree) coins were minted with a standard process with no special care

1.011.000 coins were boxed in this set https://en.numista.com/catalogue/set.php?id=375

1521 in this set https://en.numista.com/catalogue/set.php?id=564

628 in this set https://en.numista.com/catalogue/set.php?id=637

351 in this set https://en.numista.com/catalogue/set.php?id=638

https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=2862 quotes SPL-51 FDC-61 and ECZ-70 varieties but no FS fondo di specchio = proof variety is listed

my educated guess is that boxing transforms standard coins in Prooflike allowing you to sell them at a premium price

OK. Due diligence. All that have Proof/Prooflike year lines deleted should have a comment in the Comments section about erroneous information in SCWC or somebody will start adding them back in the future.   

@rsirian1 if this comment is ok for you I can take care of adding it

Please note that no proof nor proof like varieties exist as first proof coins were minted by Italian Mint (IPZS) in 1985. Information in SCWC is wrong, see Italian reference catalogues https://en.numista.com/literature/volume_group.php?id=753 and https://en.numista.com/literature/volume_group.php?id=354

Sure. That works.

@rsirian1 @ZacUK  I added the comments to the coins, should they be approved before deleting varieties or after?

Doesn't matter. The Admins can move members and delete year lines. Your CR's will catch up. What you should do is edit your first post and click the requesting the modification of a coin in the catalog message type to put it on the Admins radar.

@rsirian1 thank you very much 

I will start moving the members.

I agree with the comment upthread that “PROVA” may have been part of the problem:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3284888

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7628387

And the PROVA was struck in both UNC and Proof.

@tdziemia thank you for getting the 7 coins right!

there are still 5 coins to correct

N#7345

N#12014

N#12022

N#12023

N#12024

Table from  https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=162, coins minted also in proof show double reference 422/P i.e. 422 and 422P 

These three:
N#12022 N#12023 N#12024 have Proof lines, not Prooflike, like the others, is it the same case?

@Jarcek yes same as the other coins, no proof neither prooflike for them, see rows 423 424 425 in the picture above

Gone, they are then.

@Jarcek thank you!