Bank of England Countermarked & Overstruck Coins and Tokens [solved]

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This message aims at: requesting the modification of a coin in the catalogue

Status: Done
Upvotes: 0
Downvotes: 0

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There are three series of countermarked coins from the Bank of England. These are:

1797 oval countermarked 8 reales ("dollars" worth 4s9d), KM# 626, 627, 632, 633, 634, 635, 637 & 641.

1799 oval countermarked 4 reales ("half dollars" probably not put into circulation), KM# 622.

1804 octagonal countermarked 8 reales ("dollars" worth 5s), KM# 659.

The last of these was followed by the overstruck dollars issued between 1804 and 1811 and the 1s6d and 3s bank tokens issued between 1811 and 1816: KM# Tn2, Tn3, Tn4 & Tn5.

Following the revision of the categories, all of these are now classed as Official necessity coins and have been moved from various “place holder” currencies into Pound sterling (1158-1970). However, after this was completed, a new, entirely fictitious currency, "Dollar (1797-1804)" seems to have been created and the oval countermarked coins were moved there. The referee has just moved them back after I requested it and is a mystified as I am by this.

Now that these coins are in the correct currency and have an appropriate categorization, all that remains is to fix the dates for the countermarked coins. Some are dated according to when they were countermarked but others have the date of the original coin. Since these pieces were not created until the countermarking, it seems to me we should date them according to that event and record the original date of the coin in the comments for each year line. All the comments are in place but some of the main dates are locked. Could an administrator please complete the job by changing the dates of those which are locked? This didn't matter much when they were in separate sections but now they are listed alongside the rest of the British coins, we really need to give them their correct dates.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

I've just had to re-request these coins to be put back in the sterling currency. Can whoever is moving them over the head of the referee (@peterjhalford) please explain their actions? There was no currency called the dollar between 1797 and 1804. It's all explained in the article THE BANK OF ENGLAND COUNTERMARKED DOLLARS, 1797-1804 by H.E. Manville.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Unfortunately, catalogue admins answer to no-one, least of all country referees, no matter how experienced or expert the latter may be.

Just because you can't see it ... doesn't mean it isn't there - Anon.

Former coin and banknote catalogue referee.

As seen on the modification page. 

 

https://en.numista.com/admin/historique-fiche.php?id=13155 

 

 

@Compendium please can you help us understand why this keeps getting changed? Is it some sort of automation? 

 

The dollar was never a currency in Great Britain, these coins were counterstamped dollars but circulated in LSD. 

peterjhalford

As seen on the modification page. 

 

https://en.numista.com/admin/historique-fiche.php?id=13155 

 

 

@Compendium please can you help us understand why this keeps getting changed? Is it some sort of automation? 

 

The dollar was never a current in Great Britain, these coins were counterstamped dollars but circulated in LSD. 

 

Hi it's me who process New denominations création

If they were not Dollars please do not write dollar in face value field : countermarked coins should not display metadata of host coins

Status changed to Done (Compendium, 23 Nov 2024, 10:59)

Everything should be Good now :-)

Compendium

Everything should be Good now :-)

Not really. You've set the value of the oval countermarked dollars to 4 Shillings, not 4 Shillings 9 Pence (19/80). I know it's an odd denomination but, if you read the article every coin has a link to in the comments, you'll see it's correct. The dates also need fixing, as described in my original post. If I've understood your rationale, the underlying dates count as “metadata” and should only appear in the comments for each year line.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ceh2019

Compendium

Everything should be Good now :-)

Not really. You've set the value of the oval countermarked dollars to 4 Shillings, not 4 Shillings 9 Pence (19/80). I know it's an odd denomination but, if you read the article every coin has a link to in the comments, you'll see it's correct. The dates also need fixing, as described in my original post. If I've understood your rationale, the underlying dates count as “metadata” and should only appear in the comments for each year line.

Exactly. Only countermark info is set regarding issuing dates, authorities, rulers etc

 

If I made a mistake sorry you can move back to correct denomination (without using Dollar please)

Alright, I'll move them for the fourth and hopefully last time. The underlying dates are locked for many of the coins, so we'll need an admin to change them. The underlying dates have already been added to the comments, so no information wiill be lost.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ceh2019

Alright, I'll move them for the fourth and hopefully last time. The underlying dates are locked for many of the coins, so we'll need an admin to change them. The underlying dates have already been added to the comments, so no information wiill be lost.

Create a New ticket please fof this date édition request thanks

Compendium

ceh2019

Alright, I'll move them for the fourth and hopefully last time. The underlying dates are locked for many of the coins, so we'll need an admin to change them. The underlying dates have already been added to the comments, so no information wiill be lost.

Create a New ticket please fof this date édition request thanks

Done. https://en.numista.com/forum/topic152955.html

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

All fixed

Those pages yearlines were really a mess, we still have work to finish normalizing the entire british catalogue

Compendium

All fixed

Those pages yearlines were really a mess, we still have work to finish normalizing the entire british catalogue

What do you mean by “normalizing”? Are you talking about the separate currencies for the tokens? If so, I would agree they should now be incorporated into sterling.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Yes, currencies are one part of it. I began this work one year ago with coin currencies which were separated by historic periods

I am more than happy to have a conversation about how this can be achieved and how best to represent the UK coinage. Personally, I am not happy with all the merchant tokens/coins being under my refereeship these were not official coins, even though they were widely accepted. 

peterjhalford

I am more than happy to have a conversation about how this can be achieved and how best to represent the UK coinage. Personally, I am not happy with all the merchant tokens/coins being under my refereeship these were not official coins, even though they were widely accepted. 

Yes the referees rights need to evolve it's in @Xavier  to do list

Yes the referee rights and details need rectifying sooner rather than later. I have just posted this suggestion as a result: Referee details on catalogue pages

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