We currently have an inconsistency inside the Coins category where the name “Fantasy coins” is used for a sub-category, which contains a sub-sub-category also called “Fantasy coins”.
We should find a better name for the sub-category, as only the sub-sub-category contains items that are really fantasy coins.
We may also take the opportunity to slightly re-organize the Coins category, based on the following observations:
The sub-category “Local coins” is very close to “ECU & Pre 1999 Euro”. They are not official coins of the country and they saw various degree of usage, as some coins saw some limited local circulation and others are for collection only. We should probably move both categories closer.
The definition of collector coins ("Coins issued by a government for collection or investment purpose. They were not intended for circulation. The coins are denominated in a currency which doesn’t have circulating coins or banknotes.") is pretty close too, but it should probably stay close to the non-circulating coins category too.
The category “Micronation coins” gathers coins that are issued by a micronation, independently of their usage. The micronation is already denoted in the issuer field; maybe we don't need to repeat that information in the type field. We could categorize these coins in standard circulation coins (if they saw some circulation within the micronation), circulating commemorative coins, non-circulating coins (if they did not circulate but micronation also issued circulating coins), and collector coins (for micronations that don't have circulating coins). We may have difficulty to differentiate micronation collector coins from fantasy coins though. See for example N#98851, which I originally left in fantasy coins and someone moved into the micronation coin category. One the other hand, the circulation of micronation coins is always a bit artificial and difficult to determine, so not differentiating based on circulation is convenient.
Here are some suggestions:
Option A
Have a parent category “numismatic products”, which would also include all non-circulating coins. This bold choice would highlight that Niue coins are not very different from fantasy coins, except that the issuing company bought the right to write “Niue” on the coin. It doesn't fit very well for coins such as N#189378 though, which I would rather not call a “product”.
Coins
Standard circulation coins
Circulating commemorative coins
Numismatic products
Non-circulating coins
Collector coins
Local coins
ECU & Pre 1999 coins
Fantasy coins
No change to the other sub-categories
And coins from micronations would not have a dedicated category: their coins would be spread in the categories above (Option A2 would be to have micronation coins as a sub-category of numismatic products).
Option B
Have all sub-categories at the same level
Coins
Standard circulation coins
Circulating commemorative coins
Non-circulating coins
Collector coins
Local coins
Fantasy coins
No change to the other sub-categories
And coins from micronations would not have a dedicated category: their coins would be spread in the categories above (Option B2 would be to have micronation coins as a sub-category of local coins). The category “ECU & Pre 1999 coins” doesn't fit well with this option. They could either be split between collector coins (example N#52611), local coins (N#143979) and fantasy coins -N#178980) even if it's sometimes difficult to tell (option Ba), or have a sub-category inside fantasy coins (option Bb).
Option C
Keep the current sub-categories and just change the name of the wrongly-named category “Fantasy coins”. The best name I can think of is “Unofficial coins”, even if it might be too generic.
I would like see the true fantasy “coins” like from made-up places like Lord of the Rings etc or something like the privately made pretend Euro patterns to be put under medals (maybe rename medals into (metal) exonumia).
They serve absolutely no commerce other then generating money for the maker/seller and are essentially just art pieces nor is there any value (state assets etc) behind them like for most NCLTs even if some countries cheat by using immediate demonetisation (like in South America).
The sandbank countries like Niue with the private grift companies would still pose headaches though.
Coins from micronations would not have a dedicated category: their coins would be spread in the categories above (Option D2 would be to have micronation coins as a sub-category of local coins).
The category “ECU & Pre 1999 coins” can either be split between collector coins, local coins and fantasy coins (option Da), or have a sub-category inside fantasy coins (option Db), or inside Coins (option Dc).
I think the term Fantasy Coins doesn't really say what it is in some cases. Take N#4173 for example. Western Sahara isn't fantasy (or at least not for everyone). The coin is not a fantasy, as it physically exists, but Western Sahara isn't the issuer of the coin. Shouldn't we call it Unofficial Coins? Or Unauthorised Coins?
To me, Fantasy Coins belong to fantasy places, like the realm of The Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars or Star Trek.
I'm for the Option D, but to put them under tokens, not medals. We shall stop to name them “coins”, they are coins-like products that are far from being numismatic.
Also we shall rename “Fantasy places” from the list of Issuers (I'd propose to remove it completely, but I suppose this is not supported).
There are plenty of places that exists, but never oficcially issued some coins/tokens, so they were put there only because some Chinese factory invented a commercial product - quasi-coins issued on behalf of existed places.
I think previously used “Pretended issuers” is better.
UPD: I also like the term "Unauthorised coins" for such stuff (proposed by smvdbrink). Unauthorised coins for Pretended issuers
My personal list of scammers from Numista: erniemix, yvain, CassTaylor
They are medals in the broader sense they are just metal objects to look at. Tokens fulfil a job, these are just decorations. But like I said the main header could be changed.
A stamped metal disc used as a personal ornament, a charm, or a religious object.
It was issued into circulation as a normal Commemorative coin and also with a “C” Mintmark issued as an NCLT coin. At the moment they are on the same Numista page with a different mintage line.
So Option A or B would not work for these coins, Option C would be ok.
Mike
Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
Given that the Fantasy coins are so problematic, maybe they could be put to a separate branch?
So that top level categories would be:
coins;
fantasy coins;
tokens;
medals;
banknotes;
paper exonumia.
I suggest it because it is desirable to keep fantasies separate from real things, but the term “medal” sounds wrong, because fantasy coins aren't very similar to medals (say, Olympic medals), except that both are round and usually made from metal. Their intended function is quite different.
IMHO coin replicas aren't a type of medals either.
I thought I had replied but I do not see my post… Or by mistake I requested to delete it (instead of another one) to moderator. 👻 👽
Xavier
Option D
Coins
Standard circulation coins
Circulating commemorative coins
Non-circulating coins
Collector coins
Local coins
No change to the other sub-categories
Medals
Fantasy coins
No change to the other sub-categories
I vote for option D. And I agree with
Grinya
I'm for the Option D, but to put them under tokens, not medals.
(in any case, option D)
Xavier
Coins from micronations would not have a dedicated category: their coins would be spread in the categories above
+1
Xavier
The category “ECU & Pre 1999 coins” can either be split between collector coins, local coins and fantasy coins (option Da), or have a sub-category inside fantasy coins (option Db), or inside Coins (option Dc).
If it is possible to know the use, I like the option Da better, otherwise… I don't know… maybe the option Db.
Wanted & swap list (euro coins & world coins, exonumia and banknotes circulated) https://goo.gl/AQjfKp - I have euro & world CC coins for swap.
Given the definitons of “collectors coins” and “medals”, D looks best. However, these definitions will need to be made very clear since there will be plenty of people using different definitons, particularly for "medal".
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
I have a feeling we are too few people using the forum to vote for such important changes, there are hundreds of thousands using the catalog and just half a dozen giving opinions.
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What about a poll in the main page with simple clicks?
By the way, there is a precedent, suggesting how the term “unofficial” can be used. A website called Discogs, a catalogue for music records (cassettes, CDs, vinyl records), includes pirate issues, but catalogues them under the same artist and album as regular records. The term “unofficial release” is used instead of “pirated release”.
The analogy is partial at best, because in non-numismatic context fantasy coins normally aren't used as a substitute for real ones. Still, the term “unofficial” might apply.
I have a feeling we are too few people using the forum to vote for such important changes, there are hundreds of thousands using the catalog and just half a dozen giving opinions.
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What about a poll in the main page with simple clicks?
You're right, of course. We only have to look at the number of people taken by surprise when the recent category changes were implemented. Big changes should be advertised ahead of implementation to help avoid such shocks.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
You're right, of course. We only have to look at the number of people taken by surprise when the recent category changes were implemented. Big changes should be advertised ahead of implementation to help avoid such shocks.
They were advertised. But not many people bothered to read about them. It wasn't a shock to those that bothered to check what is going on in here regularly. If you are a casual member who might only come on here occasionally you might have been caught out.
The changes are a massive improvement and most people will get used to them eventually.
Mike
Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
You're right, of course. We only have to look at the number of people taken by surprise when the recent category changes were implemented. Big changes should be advertised ahead of implementation to help avoid such shocks.
They were advertised. But not many people bothered to read about them. It wasn't a shock to those that bothered to check what is going on in here regularly. If you are a casual member who might only come on here occasionally you might have been caught out.
The changes are a massive improvement and most people will get used to them eventually.
Mike
What would be lost by better communication? I'm not a casual member and I was surprised by the effect of changes that had been advertised as a change to the categories, not a merger. Since the changes are now being revised, it's clear that the first version hasn't worked in its entirety and needs modifying, following the input of members. We still need to restore the functionality of the site, as discussed elsewhere, but I can't see how getting more people involved in discussing the fundamentals of the underlying database is a problem.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
The most important thing to me would be that coins from micronations are not integrated into standard circulation coins. As a rule, there is no state legitimacy, and these numismatic products are NOT real circulation coins (even if they should circulate).
I don't want to go too off-topic but creating a new main section like banknotes one (paper exonumia) would helps.
This is tokens + medals.
I believe he is asking for a new top Type:
Metal (or Metallic) Exonumia
Or maybe I'm wrong.
Correct!
or "coin-like exonumia" where you could find for example Fantasy coins (now Coins section), Play money (now Tokens section), Coin replicas (now Medals section) and all those coin-like items which would like to be real/official coins but cannot 😀
I'm just taking inspiration from banknotes sections which seems to be more appreciated.
I don't want to go too off-topic but creating a new main section like banknotes one (paper exonumia) would helps.
This is tokens + medals.
I believe he is asking for a new top Type:
Metal (or Metallic) Exonumia
Or maybe I'm wrong.
Correct!
or "coin-like exonumia" where you could find for example Fantasy coins (now Coins section), Play money (now Tokens section), Coin replicas (now Medals section) and all those coin-like items which would like to be real/official coins but cannot 😀
I'm just taking inspiration from banknotes sections which seems to be more appreciated.
Perhaps it is an idea to explore. After the implement of the five main types (coins, tokens, medals, banknotes, paper exonumia) we have problems with some coin-like objects that are sometimes coins, sometimes tokens, sometimes medals, all or nothing at once.
where the option E is to have a top-category for fantasy coins, separate from coins, tokens and medals.
I understand that my decision to have fantasy coins under the Coins category was too much a stretch. I moved them as a sub-category of medals (option D). I consider them as medals rather than tokens because they have no direct utility, they are intended for collection.
I'll continue with splitting the categories for ECU coins and micronations (D1a)
I deleted the category for micronation coins and re-categorized the coins:
Avram coins are categorized as fantasy coins, because they can't be used anywhere (the micronation doesn't even have a territory)
Christiania Løn coins are categorized as local coins, because they can be used within Christiania (I didn't re-categorize the 2012-2019 Fed coins, which are categorized as fantasy)
Riviera Principality coins are categorized back as fantasy. I could not find evidence that they circulated.
Sealand coins are intended for souvenir/collection only. I was tempted to categorize them as collector coins, considering the strong claim from Sealand to be a state, but I finally chose to categorize them as fantasy coins, similarly to Avram and Riviera Principality.
I'm very happy that the micronations “coins” were divided into fantasy/local categories (and not into standard circulation coins). This is the right decision.
I don't know if this is the right place to come up with this. Before we had something like “Campaign tokens” or medals. Here are some Austrian “Kampfspende” tokens and similar “campaign tokens” (or donation tokens):
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Sorry I deleted the category for “campaign tokens” without knowing what it meant exactly. It looked like the category was heavily mis-used.
Do you know where I can get more explanation about what those tokens are? My understanding is that they are tokens/medals that you get as a keepsake when you donate money to a party or an organization. Some have a value written on it, which I guess is the amount donated, but the token was not intended to be spent, right?
I guess we should add the category back. It might be preferable to name it “donation medals” to avoid mis-usage.
If my understanding above is correct, I would add it as a sub-category of “Membership medals”.
Most of these were sold at high prices to help fund the war or other things, sometimes as for the porcelain medals to help fund constructions of war memorials.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Most of these were sold at high prices to help fund the war or other things, sometimes as for the porcelain medals to help fund constructions of war memorials.
I affirm apuking's statement, especially on Austrian tokens for war effort.
Furthermore, in Yugoslavia there were also many kinds “paper receipts” (promotional coupons) for given/donated funds when certain building was being built. Here is one such proof of donation for "common or cooperative house/building" in Delnice:
Also some promotional coupons (this category is available in paper exonumia), see here, as issued by Yugoslav red cross. These were given directly when money was donated.
There are pieces, which were given to donators after the "object of donation purpose was accomplished", eg. the church was finally built: N#149944
In most or probably in all of these cases, these coupons, medals or tokens were not intended to be used as a future kind of currency. I am also sometimes in dilemma whether to add such pieces (especially paper receipts) as this in some sense broadens the scope of Numista. But I may be wrong here.
No, it was there to display your support and loyalty to the regime. You could proof that you're are giving to the cause in either financing the party, welfare or the war effort through your (semi-)voluntary ‘sacrifice’ donation.
Could you please also confirm what the value “1 Schilling” means on this token and similar tokens? N#102325
Can you get something in exchange for the token?
Hi
Eintopf means stew. As far as I know in thirties German Reich introduced "Stew day" to make it short. Once or twice a year on specific day each restaurant or similar food vendor had to make basic food meals on fixed-predetermined price, set by the government. This might also have been a voluntary engagement by the vendors to raise funds for charitable organizations (not exactly sure). The difference over the price of any meal prepared on that day had to be donated to some charity or similar organization.
I believe that I have read somewhere, that regular folks could also donate food and other necessities to local charity organizations, which would then distribute these goods to the poor or the ones in the need. I believe here in come in these “eintopfspende tokens". Tokens given as a commemorative award for being charitable/altruistic. Very likely these were not intended to be used after as a currency of some kind.
I am not native to Germany, so I do not know all the specifics here. I hope someone from Austria or Germany picks this up and fills in the info.
Keep in mind, that these events may have also to some extent been organized by specific political or rather say militaristic entities to promote their public image.
Would like to hear more about this.
This one would also fall in the same category of campaign tokens N#17893 (but clearly with different intention as eintopfspende tokens).
One more thing may also be somewhat questionable. At the time of issue of certain campaign tokens (eg. N#142840) the tag “sensitive” may not yet or should not be applied. Ugly things happened later in the history. Debatable…
I would leave the sensitive tag in this case, even if its pre-war.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
I will then start adding some "sadekatul fitr" donation receipts from Islamic society from Bosnia. Then these ones get their correct place to be added to.
The receipts seem out-of-scope as they don't fit in my understanding of numismatics. I checked some online definitions of numismatics and didn't see receipts or similar documents mentioned.
(The most significant difference I found between what Numista offers and definitions of numismatics is stock and bond certificates. I'm not advocating adding stock certificates as I don't collect them.)
Please can we have updated guidelines on the types of coins for the catalogue. Local coins should have had some sort of legal tender status to be considered coins, otherwise they are just tokens. There is no such thing as a local coin in the UK.
Please can we have updated guidelines on the types of coins for the catalogue. Local coins should have had some sort of legal tender status to be considered coins, otherwise they are just tokens. There is no such thing as a local coin in the UK.
Peter,
The British Isles' currency tokens of the 17th., 18th., & 19th. Centuries should be under ‘Coins’ - but put under the constituent country, along with including which reigns they were released under.
Evasions require their own section.
The same goes for the currency tokens of the Australian & Canadian colonies - & the Colony of New Zealand (under Queen Victoria).
I don't know how far is the migration, but all *Token* Germany Pharmacy tokens can be migrated to “Pharmacy tokens” category. Some 1200+ entries. Here is one such case N#151757.
They are also pharmacy tokens but on one side they allowed for other businesses to place and advertisement.
I moved these two.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
