Problem: Duchy of Pomerania [solved]

Hello everyone,

I found a problem with the Duchy of Pomerania.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=pomerania_duchy&r=&ct=coin&im1=&im2=&tb=y&tc=y&tn=y&tt=y&tp=y&cat=y&ru=&ca=3&no=&v=&i=&b=&ie=&u=&a=&dg=&m=&f=&t=&w=&mt=&g=&se=&d=&c=&wi=&sw=

The problem is that the Duchy technically existed way earlier already, it got its independence in 1005 from Poland. The problem is that it doesn't have a wikipedia page of itself, as a lot of information are unknown. But we know that coins were minted in that Duchy, as evidenced by the Dannenberg Pommern catalogue.

The first ruler of the (first) Duchy of Pomerania remains unknown, but the first one that was documented was called Siemiomysł. The exact borders of his realm remain unknown, but it likely extended somewhat like the polish West Pomeranian Voivodenship. Since 1093, they were forced to pay tribute to the Obodrite prince Henry, but they weren't directly controlled by the league.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obotrites

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Pomerania

From that moment on, things stayed that way until 1121, when the Duchy of Pomerania was founded. This one is in the catalogue, linked above. Now, I don't know what to do. Should we just agree to add the three Pomeranian coins to an issuer Duchy that was founded 100 years after they were minted, or should the admins add a new issuer. If that's the case, there is no known flag or symbol for them.

Are those coins on Numista already?

I found that about L'utilisation, is there a link potentially? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutici

Compendium

Are those coins on Numista already?

I found that about L'utilisation, is there a link potentially? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutici

Hello,

I didn't find these coins on numista. Regarding the Luciti federation: it only controlled the very western part of Pomerania, which didn't belong to the duchy. According to Stanebow, the Duchy of Pomerania controlled lands north of the Warta, east of the Odra and west of Nogat, later Noteć, but they can't be exactly specified as historians lack the necessary sources. The Luciti were right across the border, west of the Odra. Yes, the  Lucitian League tried fighting the Duchy of Pomerania, but they didn't manage to do that. The people living under the Duchy of Pomerania could be divided under two main pomeranian groups (ignoring the minor groups): Veleti/Luciti and the Wolinians. The Veleti lived in the west and built most of their cities there, with the exception of e.g. Kołobrzeg.

 Dannenberg sadly doesn't say anything about the first three coins, which I find odd in of itself (except for adding the drawings), but since they're catalogued under the pomeranian region, they likely weren't minted by the Lucitian league, as they didn't mint their own coins. Meanwhile, it's known that the pomeranians were barbarising/re-minting their coins at the time, inspired by the Deniers of Otto and Adelaide. 

A small note: It's important to note that the Duchy should not be added to the section of German States. The Duchy was independent from 1005 to 1121, with a short break for 31 years between 1042 and 1073. In those times, it found itself under varying degrees of polish control, either having to pay tribute or shortly losing its independence.

(A bit unrelated) I sadly can't say that much about its history, as according to various foreign interpretations of different sources, a Pomeranian ruler, Świętoborzyc, was the father, uncle and grandson of Świętobor, a ruler that we can actually confirm the existence of.

And regarding the tribute to Obodrite: it was only for the westernmost part of Pomerania, the one that the duchy probably didn't control.

Is it this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Eastern_Pomerania

Compendium

Is it this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Eastern_Pomerania

No, not really. This existed only for a short time, when the whole Duchy was going through political turmoil, explaining the uncertainty about Świętoborzyc and Świętobor. The duchy you linked was centered around Pomerelia, so with Gdańsk at the centre. Only the eastern part, between Nogat and Noteć. I'll link you a map I made.

Of course, these aren't the exact borders. I know, the subject is very complicated. You can see Pomerelia/Eastern Pomerania here, at the right.

After sleeping with it once again, I managed to come up with two solutions:

1) Add these coins under the existing issuer.

Pro: They'll be unified in one spot

Contra: This Duchy minted its own coins before the duchy under the Q data existed. The coins minted in the XI century were minted by a unified duchy, which later stopped minting its own coins until the XV century. At that time, they were minted by the cities and for the cities.

2) Make a new issuer.

Pro: There'll be a clearer separation and it'll reflect its political status better.

Contra: We'll have two issuers with the same name. The coins won't be under one place either, making someone easily confused.

Kind regards :)

I'd go for 1, with proper issuer introduction

Ok. Maybe let's add a new subsection to the issuer. The first one for 1005-1121, which would have new coins I was planning to add. Then the second one will stay the same.

We do not create separate issuers when name stayed the same

Compendium

We do not create separate issuers when name stayed the same

Yes, but I meant a subsection, e.g. like the city of Danzig has a subsection for the papiermark and the Gulden.

Oh ok. Those sections you mention are the currencies names

Compendium

Oh ok. Those sections you mention are the currencies names

Yes, exactly. Sorry for the confusion.