Splitting 1808-1811 Peru Reales

Hello!

Several coins below have different lettering for the King Ferdinand VII's name on the same type. The legend for a few denominations started as “FERDND” which was changed to “FERDIN," so those both should be separated into their own pages. 

1. N#46279 

1808 “FERDND” should be split from 1808-11 “FERDIN.” Both types were minted in 1808 and the Numista page only has “FERDND” for that date. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/peru-1-2-real-km-103.1-1808-cuid-1079827-duid-1509774 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/peru-1-2-real-km-103.2-1808-1811-cuid-1080012-duid-1564855

2. N#43935

This one already has all the varieties on the page. It just needs to be split into two distinct types by legend. 

3. N#47970

The 4R should be split into 1808-9 “FERDND” and 1810-11 “FERDIN.” 

4. N#46623

The image below is from page #468 of Aureo & Calicó's catalog of Spanish coins here - https://www.aureo.com/es/comprarcatalogo 

They split the 8R by legend and bust size. At the very least, Numista should have it split into a type for “FERDND” and another for “FERDIN,” but maybe by bust size too, resulting in three pages. 

All other denominations seem to be fine. I'll make some minor changes and add to the descriptions of some of the coins listed. Sorry if this is a lot for a single post. Thanks.

AgIsSilver

Hello!

Several coins below have different lettering for the King Ferdinand VII's name on the same type. The legend for a few denominations started as “FERDND” which was changed to “FERDIN," so those both should be separated into their own pages. 

 

1. N#46279 

1808 “FERDND” should be split from 1808-11 “FERDIN.” Both types were minted in 1808 and the Numista page only has “FERDND” for that date. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/peru-1-2-real-km-103.1-1808-cuid-1079827-duid-1509774 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/peru-1-2-real-km-103.2-1808-1811-cuid-1080012-duid-1564855

Each sub-type has already its own KM#!

 

2. N#43935

This one already has all the varieties on the page. It just needs to be split into two distinct types by legend. 

Each sub-type has already its own KM#!

 

3. N#47970

The 4R should be split into 1808-9 “FERDND” and 1810-11 “FERDIN.” 

Each sub-type has already its own KM#!

 

4. N#46623

The image below is from page #468 of Aureo & Calicó's catalog of Spanish coins here - https://www.aureo.com/es/comprarcatalogo 

They split the 8R by legend and bust size. At the very least, Numista should have it split into a type for “FERDND” and another for “FERDIN,” but maybe by bust size too, resulting in three pages. 

 

 

 

All other denominations seem to be fine. I'll make some minor changes and add to the descriptions of some of the coins listed. Sorry if this is a lot for a single post. Thanks.

Each sub-type has already its own KM#!

Sjoelund

Each sub-type has already its own KM#!

While they do have KM#'s in the current page, I don't see why that's a reason they shouldn't be given their own, especially when it's a quite significant difference in the lettering. Also, #1 (the 1/2R) doesn't even have all the varieties listed in Krause (missing 1808 “FERDIN”) so why are we using an inaccurate source? #4 (the 8R) doesn't have all of its varieties listed by Krause either. I included a picture from a catalog which specializes in these coins (rather than being a general catalog of the entire world which Krause is) and they have additional varieties and information, and they split the coins up by type like I'm suggesting. 

We have many instances where Krause subtypes are combined into a single Numista listing, in accordance with the guidelines:

The same type may include:

• Different dates, mints, officinae, mint officials, mintmarks, and engraver’s marks
• Different catalogue reference numbers
• Small diameter, mass, shape, and thickness variations, especially for ancient and medieval hammered coins
• Different minting processes (proof strikes, polished dies, etc.)
• Random variations such as edge, obverse and reverse orientations 

Whether this difference in legend justifies a new type is a bit of a gray area, but the Guidelines suggest it is more major differences that would justify a new type:

Coin types are split on independent pages when they feature:

(edited…)

• Different legends or countermarks
  • 1 Penny  ||  1 New Penny
  • Groschen (VITA DULCEDO)  ||  Groschen (SPES DULCEDO)
  • 8 Escudos - Fernando VI  ||  5 Pounds (Counterstamp on Peruvian 8 escudos)

If the legend started in a different place (12:00 versus 6:00), this would be a more significant design difference that might cause a new type/subtype.  

I do not think a small difference in abbreviation like this fits the spirit of the guidelines (certainly for earlier hammered coins it does not).

I agree with @tdziemia rationale.

lets invoke also @adanieluy and @Jasanche :-)

I think there needs to be more clarity on how significant differences have to be to constitute a new type. Right now it's pretty ambiguous, so it'd be great if that information could be decided upon and added to the guidelines page. What makes N#28675 and N#53715 separate types (in Numista & Krause) but not these coins? Someone just needs to decide on where that line is drawn.

I agree there is some room to provide more illustrative examples in the Guidelines.

The difference in the Carlos IV types is the use of IIII versus IV.  Are those “different words”?  Different spellings?   

I don't know how a grammarian would rule on it, but apparently Krause assessed this as a lager difference than the styles of abbreviating Ferdinand (your original point).

Good evening,

In my opinion, the difference does not merit the splitting. This would create more confusion than clarity. But we would benefit from ensuring the yearlines are complete. 

With regards to  N#28675 andN#53715, I undertand the argument. But the fact that the coins use Carlos III's bust brings some significance to the IIII vs IV difference in my mind. 

John

Thank you. We will close this one.