New issuers: Golden Horde [solved]

Hello!

New issuers for the Golden Horde. Lines 24 to 32.  :)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DE0MAHSElWZvgJ6Sh3gY6NAvZoRvyoKi9AUE9HyRxCE/edit?usp=sharing

----- Golden Horde
---------- Golden Horde
---------- Qrim, Emirate of
---------- Saqchi Khanate
---------- Eastern Juchid Ulus / White Horde

---------- Kazan Khanate
---------- Sibir and the East
---------- Sufid dynasty (under general Mongol States; requesting to move it here)
 

There are plenty of classifications of Juchids and other coins related to Golden Horde…. And I'm not sure we need to make one more for Numista… But let's discuss.

For my opinion I will use some info from another thread to understand logic of new issuers.

Qrim, Emirate of - I don't think it is reasonable to create an issuer just to separate coins of Amir Tuqa-Timur. I think it would be more easy just to add it as a ruler of Golden Horde (as it was made on zeno - https://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=5700) or Great Mongols

Saqchi Khanate - the same logic - I don't see reasonable to separate it as an independent issuer to show coins of Noghay, especially because I'm not sure that it was independent. See on zeno: https://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=1740

Eastern Juchid Ulus / White Horde - this is quite complicated part… Generally coins of Aq-Ordu may be put under separate issuer under Golden Horde or even under Mongol states, but the question is what to put there. All the coins from such places like Barjin, Jand, Sygnaq, Uzgend, Yangikent etc? Some of the Khans of Aq-Ordu were definetly Khans of the Golden Horde in the same time, and lots of the catalogues attributed e.g. Sygnaq coins to Golden Horde only. Urus Khan was a khan of Golden Horde some time

I see it as  unnecessary complication unless it would be possible to add two issuers to one coin. But it's discussable.

Kazan Khanate - which coins do you want to attribute there? Coins of Ulugh Muhammad were minted in Bulghar before separation of Kazan Khanate as an independent state and succeeder of Golden Horde in 1438 and shall definetly be attributed to Golden Horde coins.

Sibir and the East - the same question… Bulghar coins of Mahmud Khwaja are definetly coins of Golden Horde. the only coins that some of the researchers (but not the majority) attribute to Siberian Khanate are the coins of Ibak (if I'm not mistaken, they are on zeno here: https://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=11280). But this is VERY discussable question.

Sufid dynasty - yes, it is possible to put Khwarizm coins of Qongirat Sufis period under a separate issuer. This is not my area of interest, I don't know too much about them…

Discussions are always welcomed!  :)

Firstly, my list of issuers and ruling authorities are made through a combination of research from Zeno and the Stephen Album catalogue (third edition). Being from 2011, there is most certainly potential for outdated information, but usually seems to be corrected on Zeno, hence why I use both. If you are interested, here is the free online .pdf:

https://www.stevealbum.com/pdfs/ChecklistOfIslamicCoins3rdEdition2011Free.pdf

Starting with the simple one-ruler issuers, we have:

Qrim, Emirate of

Saqchi Khanate

Kazan Khanate

Tuqa-Timur had not existed within the third edition of the Stephen Album catalogue, but on Zeno, he is specifically listed as the “Amir of Qrim”. This would likely be supported by coins in his name being minted at only this one city. I do not think it would be the most logical to include him in the general Golden Horse issuer because of this; he seems to have just been a local governor of a much smaller area.

Noghay is more confusing, as he could be considered as a co-ruler to the entire Golden Horde, at some point. However, with that being said, his coins were only every struck at the Saqchi mint in modern-day Romania, which I do think is important.

Firstly: on his Wikipedia page, it specifically mentions that "he managed to exercise de facto control, with near-total control over the lands west of the Dnieper". And the Dnieper, for those who do not know, is a river that goes through Ukraine (so Romania is included).

In Stephen Album, Noghay is listed under a separate section right after the Golden Horde, with the following description (page 225):

So… I got the naming from Stephen Album here, which I imagine follows the geography named in Wikipedia. Something to keep in mind: Stephen Album, also lists Noghay's son, Chaka (the only other ruler of this dynasty); however, Chaka became to tsar of Second Bulgarian Empire while he issued his coins, so… here he is.

And the Kazan Khanate is one I found specifically in Stephen Album. Ulugh Muhammad has his general coins, as he ruled the entire Golden Horde, but there is one type attributed to after he separated the Kazan Khanate (page 224):

For Sibir and the East, the ruler, Mahmud Khwaja, is not listed within Stephen Album, I couldn't find reference to him ruling the entirety of the Golden Horde. The name of this issuers come to all I could find on Wikipedia:

Sufid dynasty: this dynasty used to placed under the Islamic states, but it is more closely related to the Golden Horde, as it was a break-away state from that place for some time. Currently, it is just under the general Mongol States.

Eastern Juchid Ulus / White Horde: When I was doing research, I read that the Blue Horde was considered to be the overall rulers of the Golden Horde (or something like that). I image, in regards to the coins, this is why basically every ruler of the Blue Horde issued coins, yet very few of the White Horde issued coins--those from the Blue Horde were meant for the entirety of the Golden Horde. The situation would not necessarily be reversed though, in regards to the few White Horde rulers who issued coins--those could have been local to their area, considering how few rulers did issue coins.

Urus is most definitely a complicated ruler, as, for some time, he was ruler of both the White Horde (1369–1370; 1373–1374; 1375–1377) and the combination of the White Horde and the Blue Horde (i.e., the Golden Horde, 1573; 1374–1375). The issue I am seeing is that his reign of the Blue Horde was disputable and short, and the coins minted which are listed on Numista are within territory of the White Horde (with all year-ranges following with White Horde ranges, but none following within the more specific Blue Horde ranges only). As well, in Stephen Album, it mentions all his coins were minted at Sighnaq, the capital of the White Horde. And so that is why I believe he should stay within the White Horde. If an example can provided of a coin from Urus struck at a Blue Horde mint (which might have certainly been found since 2011), that would most definitely change my mind.

Generally, taking into account different concept of “country” for modern and medieval people, especially for nomads, it is really hard to classify them. Therefore, I'd use existing traditional classification of what is usually related to Golden Horde according to some catalogues or general tradition.

Golden Horde wasn't a country in general, quite long it was an umbrella name for some uluses/wilayahs/tribes where some people from it may moreless independently control different part of it and war against each other. Their areas of control often don't have stable territories… Khan that formally was a head of Golden Horde and sit in the capital may in reality control nothing while there may simultaneously be some amount of other self-proclaimed Khans fighting against each other for leadership.

Another problem that modern names like White, Blue, Golden Horde have different meanings for different researchers and for different historical stages… E.g. under the name Blue Horde some researches understand East part of the Golden horde until 1360, other people - west part of the Golden Horde after Toqta rule… Other point of view, that White and Blue horde both were parts of the East part of the country. Feodorov-Davydov proposed that there were two White Hordes and two Blue Hordes…

Therefore I think it would be better to simplify Numista catalogue as much as possible.

Qrim, Emirate, Saqchi Khanate are only modern names to describe territories controlled by some Mongol leaders in exact historical stage. You can find plenty of the other situations where some places were relatively independent from the rulers who sit in the capital (especially in the time after Jani Beq rule), but I think it doesn't mean we need to create separate issuer for them.

By the way, term Noghay Khanate historically has different meaning from what was existed in Sacqchi during Noghay control there.

For Kazan Khanate, as well as Astrakhan and Siberia Khanates (parts of the former Golden Horde) - as I understand there is no scientific evidence of minting coins at the time of their existing on behalf of these states. Coins were minted on behalf of the rulers that controlled territories and people, but this control was quite unstable. 

So, I see possibly reasonable to separate only 2 issuers from those you proposed: Khwarizm coins of Qongirat Sufis period and Aq-Ordu coins in the meaning of Zeno with duplicating of some coins under the Golden Horde catalogue in case some external catalogues shows them as Golden Horde coins (like Sagdeeva for Urus Khan coins). Maybe some people who knows that part of numismatic better than me can propose something (especially for Khwarizm coins:))….

Grinya

 

Qrim, Emirate, Saqchi Khanate are only modern names to describe territories controlled by some Mongol leaders in exact historical stage. You can find plenty of the other situations where some places were relatively independent from the rulers who sit in the capital (especially in the time after Jani Beq rule), but I think it doesn't mean we need to create separate issuer for thethe.

I have no knowledge about this coinage but just wanted to answer this part: as soon as there is a specific area on whigh circulated coins, even in a naŕrow timespan, we should create a dedicated sub issuer. Its what we do for instance in German states for all nobility lines constantly dividing or merging territories.

Grinya

Another problem that modern names like White, Blue, Golden Horde have different meanings for different researchers and for different historical stages… E.g. under the name Blue Horde some researches understand East part of the Golden horde until 1360, other people - west part of the Golden Horde after Toqta rule… Other point of view, that White and Blue horde both were parts of the East part of the country. Feodorov-Davydov proposed that there were two White Hordes and two Blue Hordes…

I did read about some researchers calling the Eastern half the White Horde and others calling it the Blue Horde--that's why the issuer name I proposed was “Eastern Juchid Ulus”, as that would accommodate for both sources.  :)

If you can see it is reasonable to separate those of the Qongirat Sufi dynasty (which is already existing as its own issuer, before I made this thread) and those of Aq-Ordu (which, looking on Zeno, does include the rulers I listed for the Eastern Juchids), that is at least a start. And as long as this discussion has been, for those who have not been keeping track, that means there are four issuers you completely disagree with, which each have only one ruling authority (so they are small issuers):

Qrim, Emirate of: Toqa Temür ibn Jochi, circa 1257-1275 (acseach example)

Saqchi Khanate: Noghay, circa 1270-1300 (on Numista)

Kazan Khanate: Ulugh Muhammad, 1438-1447 (Stephen Album 3rd Edition, Page 224, A#2058H)
Sibir and the East: Mahmud Khwaja, 1419-1420 (on Numista)

For Qrim and Saqchi, the names might not have been used during their existance, but… its what we have to work with to describe these historical areas. I don't see much of a problem with that. And for the Kazan Khanate, we have a reference to a coin attributed to this place in the Stephen Album catalogue. I would say that is generally very reliable, in regards to these kinds of coins (and a lot of their attributions do come directly from Zeno, although I do not think this one did). With that being said, if someone happens to have the fourth edition, it would be appreciated if they checked it out to see if A#2058H still has the same attribution.

With all that being said, as Compendium has said, we do not create a new issuer based on number of coins, but rather a different geographical area they circulated. So the more important question is: were the coins of these four issuers meant to circulate throughout the entire Golden Horde, or were they meant for more local purposes?

Considering, with Qrim, Saqchi, and Kazan, how these coins were minted at only single mints based on where these ruler's territories were centered around (with those territories being indeed smaller than the Golden Horde itself) , I would say they are all valid to create as new issuers.

I am still not certain about the issuer “Sibir and the East” myself. I cannot find a reference to this ruler ruling past “Sibir and the East”, although, on Zeno, the coins are listed from Middle Volga (which would be more central-western, I would say). But perhaps that was still considered East in contemporary times… I'm really not sure. The ruler needs to go somewhere, but we might need a better source to say where exactly…

Sulfur

If you can see it is reasonable to separate those of the Qongirat Sufi dynasty (which is already existing as its own issuer, before I made this thread) and those of Aq-Ordu (which, looking on Zeno, does include the rulers I listed for the Eastern Juchids), that is at least a start. 

I think it is possible because AFAIK traditionally most of these coins aren't related to Golden Horde among numismatists interested in these coins. If people responsible for Numista catalogue see it reasonable, let's do it. But as I see, I want some coins to stay under Golden Horde because they exist in Sagdeeva catalogue of Golden horde coins.

And as long as this discussion has been, for those who have not been keeping track, that means there are four issuers you completely disagree with, which each have only one ruling authority (so they are small issuers):

Qrim, Emirate of: Toqa Temür ibn Jochi, circa 1257-1275 (acseach example)

Saqchi Khanate: Noghay, circa 1270-1300 (on Numista)

Kazan Khanate: Ulugh Muhammad, 1438-1447 (Stephen Album 3rd Edition, Page 224, A#2058H)
Sibir and the East: Mahmud Khwaja, 1419-1420 (on Numista)

 

For Qrim and Saqchi, the names might not have been used during their existance, but… its what we have to work with to describe these historical areas. I don't see much of a problem with that. And for the Kazan Khanate, we have a reference to a coin attributed to this place in the Stephen Album catalogue. I would say that is generally very reliable, in regards to these kinds of coins (and a lot of their attributions do come directly from Zeno, although I do not think this one did). With that being said, if someone happens to have the fourth edition, it would be appreciated if they checked it out to see if A#2058H still has the same attribution.

Qrim, Emirate of - this is absolutely artificial name invented in this thread. I didn't find it anywhere else. On the link (acseach example) the coin was clearly attributed.

ISLAMIC, Mongols. Golden Horde. Temir Toqa. Circa AH 655-674 / AD 1257-1275. AR Yarmaq (23mm, 1.93 g, 9h). Qrim (Crimea) mint.

Zeno also put these coins to Golden Horde category. So, nobody uses this name at all.

There was a Crimean Ulus with the capital in city Qrim that was in moreless vassal relationships with main part of Mongol Empire and Golden Horde (as a part controlled by Juchids) for quite a long time. And it is hard to classify it as a separate state and to find a date where it stopped to be separate at least before 1312 and reformes of Uzbeq Khan.

Golden Horde is a common name for territories owned by Juchids. Toqa-Timur was a son of  Juchi. 

I see it absolutely unreasonable to separate it. If someone want to artificially separate it as an independent issuer, at least don't introduce a new name for this.

Saqchi Khanate:  this name is used, so, if you want to expand the list of issuers, it is possible to separate it, especially because Noghay had never been a Khan of Golden Horde (despite he was a ruler of Golden Horde by fact). 

Kazan Khanate: even Stephen Album describes this coin as “Believed to have been struck at Kazan.” Can you show an example of the coin he is talking about and any other sourse of information that confirms strucking of it in Kazan (Bulghar al-Jadidah) after 1438?

Sibir and the East: Mahmud Khwaja, 1419-1420. The coin you linked (on Numista) was struck in Bulghar that is far from Siberia. What happened in Bulghar in 1419-1420 that it shall be counted (together with Siberia) these 2 years as a separate state from Golden Horde?

Considering, with Qrim, Saqchi, and Kazan, how these coins were minted at only single mints based on where these ruler's territories were centered around (with those territories being indeed smaller than the Golden Horde itself) , I would say they are all valid to create as new issuers.

Classification of coins by mints would be more suitable for the coins of that time, but in this case we need to make significant update of the catalogue. 

With all that being said, as Compendium has said, we do not create a new issuer based on number of coins, but rather a different geographical area they circulated. So the more important question is: were the coins of these four issuers meant to circulate throughout the entire Golden Horde, or were they meant for more local purposes?

The coins of different mints were found at the territory of Golden Horde. As I understand, people cared about silver content rather then about what is written on coin. So, even coins of Venice or Genoa (Caffa) may be also accepted in Golden Horde.  Definetly Crimean or Bulghar coins were accepted everywhere.

UPDATE: there are some coins minted by Juchid rulers after 1459 (some kind of consensus when Golden Horde finished to exist as a separate country). Sayyid Ahmad II was a leader of nomads and minted coins with his name. Mahmud and Ahmad minted coins in Hajji Tarchan that was a capital of Hajji Tarchan (Astrakhan) Khanate. Ibrahim (Ibaq) minted coins in his nomad mint that was nomadised to Siberia and Ibrahim was lately mentioned as a head of Siberian Khanate…

The question is that due to a) entangled relationships between different nomad hordes led by different “khans” that can't really be described in terms of “countries” (Golden Horde means marquee of the Khan, so the country is where this marquee stays. Horde also had a meaning of army, but not a country) and b) impossibility to define certain year or even short time period and place of mintage of the coins with the names of late khans (and sometime even exact man) nobody classified such coins as coin of exact Ulus or Khanate. Such coins are being classified as Juchids in general. And here on Numista (as well as on zeno and plenty of other sources) we use term “Golden Horde” as an umbrella term for such coins.

I'm not a specialist of the history of that times to be able to invent a new classification of such coins for Numista that operates such term as “issuers” with a meaning of states. Juchid coins usually classified by mints (sometimes mobile as a part of nomadic hordes) and rulers belong to the Juchi descendants. All the rulers of Qrim until Uzbeq were relatively independent…. Beg Pulad and Tash Timur were rulers of Qrim who fight against Tochtamysh who was a ruler in Saray... So, there are plenty of examples of independent or semi-independent rulers in the history of Golden Horde… And classification of them by the means of Numista issuers is quite hard.

Compendium

I have no knowledge about this coinage but just wanted to answer this part: as soon as there is a specific area on whigh circulated coins, even in a naŕrow timespan, we should create a dedicated sub issuer. Its what we do for instance in German states for all nobility lines constantly dividing or merging territories.

Why don't you return Tatarstan as an subissuer of Russia in this case?:)

Grinya

Qrim, Emirate of - this is absolutely artificial name invented in this thread. I didn't find it anywhere else. On the link (acseach example) the coin was clearly attributed.

ISLAMIC, Mongols. Golden Horde. Temir Toqa. Circa AH 655-674 / AD 1257-1275. AR Yarmaq (23mm, 1.93 g, 9h). Qrim (Crimea) mint.

Zeno also put these coins to Golden Horde category. So, nobody uses this name at all.

 

There was a Crimean Ulus with the capital in city Qrim that was in moreless vassal relationships with main part of Mongol Empire and Golden Horde (as a part controlled by Juchids) for quite a long time. And it is hard to classify it as a separate state and to find a date where it stopped to be separate at least before 1312 and reformes of Uzbeq Khan.

Golden Horde is a common name for territories owned by Juchids. Toqa-Timur was a son of  Juchi. 

 

I see it absolutely unreasonable to separate it. If someone want to artificially separate it as an independent issuer, at least don't introduce a new name for this.

I don't have the time to respond to everything you have said at this very moment (I will respond to the others sometime tomorrow), but this one I can easily address right now: I got the name from Zeno.

https://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=1738

This ruler is listed as the “Amir of Qrim” directly after his name. This is the same format that follows many “Emirate” issuers listed in both Zeno and Stephen Album (for example, the “Amirs of Qunduz” is equivalent to the “Emirate of Qunduz”, as Amirs rule an Emirate).

And please keep in mind: even if new issuers are created for these places, they will still be under the Golden Horde. Even on every coin page, it would say: “Emirate of Qrim (Golden Horde)”, for example, so they will all still be located under a “Golden Horde” section. No information would be lost here.

Grinya

Compendium

I have no knowledge about this coinage but just wanted to answer this part: as soon as there is a specific area on whigh circulated coins, even in a naŕrow timespan, we should create a dedicated sub issuer. Its what we do for instance in German states for all nobility lines constantly dividing or merging territories.

Why don't you return Tatarstan as an subissuer of Russia in this case?:)

 

Which issuer is it currently? Can you link coins and sources please?

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=tatarstan&r=&ct=exonumia&im1=&im2=&ttlt=y&cat=y&ru=&ca=6&no=&v=&i=&b=&ie=&u=&a=&dg=&m=&f=&t=&w=&mt=&g=&se=&d=&c=&wi=&sw=

They were circulated within whole Tatrstan and were equal to some amount of Russian Rubles.

They were listed in Krause

Grinya

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=tatarstan&r=&ct=exonumia&im1=&im2=&ttlt=y&cat=y&ru=&ca=6&no=&v=&i=&b=&ie=&u=&a=&dg=&m=&f=&t=&w=&mt=&g=&se=&d=&c=&wi=&sw=

 

They were circulated within whole Tatrstan and were equal to some amount of Russian Rubles.

They were listed in Krause

 

What is the problem with the issuer Russia > Tatarstan? 

What would you change?

Alrighty, now that I have more time to respond… I still don't see much of the problem…

Grinya

But as I see, I want some coins to stay under Golden Horde because they exist in Sagdeeva catalogue of Golden horde coins.

What classifies as a new issuer does not depend on external catalogues; however, all these coins will continue to stay under the Golden Horde issuer. We would not be moving them away; just further classifying them. 

Qrim, Emirate of - this is absolutely artificial name invented in this thread. I didn't find it anywhere else. On the link (acseach example) the coin was clearly attributed.

As explained more in-depth earlier, the source is Zeno. Where did Zeno get that term? I could not say. However, usually, they have good, historical sources for their information, so I highly doubt they just made it up. The problem with searching for the exact term “Emirate of Qrim” is that it discludes synonyms (like “Amir”) and even other languages (because Zeno could have very well used a Russian source to determine that name, which I have seen before). All I can really say here is that the claim of this name being an “absolutely artificial name invented in this thread” is false because they have used a synonym for it on Zeno.

Zeno also put these coins to Golden Horde category. So, nobody uses this name at all.

Zeno files coins differently than Numista, but the way I see it, they have it like: Golden Horde > Qrim > Temir Toqa (Amir of Qrim)

My suggestion was to file it like this: Golden Horde > Emirate of Qrim

I don't see much of a difference here.

Saqchi Khanate:  this name is used, so, if you want to expand the list of issuers, it is possible to separate it, especially because Noghay had never been a Khan of Golden Horde (despite he was a ruler of Golden Horde by fact). 

I will start including this with the other possibly issuers then (i.e., determined by the Administrators, of course), along with the Eastern Branch and the Sufids then. But if what you are requiring is a proper name to divide these issuers, I hope I made my point with Qrim.

Kazan Khanate: even Stephen Album describes this coin as “Believed to have been struck at Kazan.” Can you show an example of the coin he is talking about and any other sourse of information that confirms strucking of it in Kazan (Bulghar al-Jadidah) after 1438?

I could not find a visual example, no. But considering how valuable the Stephen Album catalogue is to the numismatic area of the Islamic World, I do not think the lack of picture discredits the existence of this coin. When he says it is “believed to have been struck at Kazan”, I image that is because no mint is listed on this coin, but being from the larger geographical area of the Kazan Khanate, it was likely struck at the capital. The claim is saying that it could have been struck for the Kazan Khanate somewhere else within the khanate, but it does not discredit the attribution to the khanate itself.

I remember encountering examples within the catalogue where Stephen Album says “attribution is tentative” or something along the lines of future evidence may say otherwise; however, there are no claims like that regarding this coin, so I believe the issuer itself is fine.

Sibir and the East: Mahmud Khwaja, 1419-1420. The coin you linked (on Numista) was struck in Bulghar that is far from Siberia. What happened in Bulghar in 1419-1420 that it shall be counted (together with Siberia) these 2 years as a separate state from Golden Horde?

I still could not find a source explaining this, so due to the uncertainty of this rulers area, I would be fine keeping him within the Golden Horde itself until other evidence can be provided which says otherwise. This is fine with me for the time being.

Classification of coins by mints would be more suitable for the coins of that time, but in this case we need to make significant update of the catalogue. 

-

The coins of different mints were found at the territory of Golden Horde. As I understand, people cared about silver content rather then about what is written on coin. So, even coins of Venice or Genoa (Caffa) may be also accepted in Golden Horde.  Definetly Crimean or Bulghar coins were accepted everywhere.

The classification by mint would certainly follow Zeno, but if they truly did not care about what was written on the coins, these two statements are contradictory, as what was made by any mint would have been intended for the entire Golden Horde. And that is why I did not list every individual mint as their own individual issuers--the mints provided for the whole “issuer” of the Golden Horde. However, with that being said, why would coins be produced by the local amir of Qrim? It could be to compensate for a coin shortage; it could be to show more power; it could be for a variety of reasons. But just because it follows the same weight standard, when it is a local ruler, the coins are usually intended for local use, from what I have found.

UPDATE: there are some coins minted by Juchid rulers after 1459 (some kind of consensus when Golden Horde finished to exist as a separate country). Sayyid Ahmad II was a leader of nomads and minted coins with his name. Mahmud and Ahmad minted coins in Hajji Tarchan that was a capital of Hajji Tarchan (Astrakhan) Khanate. Ibrahim (Ibaq) minted coins in his nomad mint that was nomadised to Siberia and Ibrahim was lately mentioned as a head of Siberian Khanate…

Considering how the existing issuers have been difficult enough, I will stick with the ones this thread is about. Maybe we need the Siberian Khanate as well, for example, but that can be discussed later, after the last two issuers are sorted out…

The question is that due to a) entangled relationships between different nomad hordes led by different “khans” that can't really be described in terms of “countries” and b) impossibility to define certain year or even short time period and place of mintage of the coins with the names of late khans (and sometime even exact man) nobody classified such coins as coin of exact Ulus or Khanate. 

This is just semantics. On Numista, we have countries and issuers, but the difference has little relevance to the thread in question. Unless I am misunderstanding your point here…

Issuer classification might be confusing sometimes, but… that's history. Like I stated before: the most important question you can ask (now just for the Emirate of Qrim and the Kazan Khanate) is: where these coins meant to circulate in the entire territory of the Golden Horde, or where they more local issues? If they were local, they have a different geographical area and should be their own issuers, still within the Golden Horde itself. That part will never change--we would never remove these from the Golden Horde; just further classify them.

@Compendium , I want to return them to coins from Exonumia:)

@Sulfur 

What classifies as a new issuer does not depend on external catalogues; however, all these coins will continue to stay under the Golden Horde issuer. We would not be moving them away; just further classifying them. 

If we really want to separate White Horde (Aq-Ordu) I think it shall be done under Mongol States, not under Golden Horde. This is why I mentioned it

As explained more in-depth earlier, the source is Zeno. Where did Zeno get that term? I could not say.

I can say. The word Amir is a part of the inscription on the coin. As I understand it means that Tuqa-Timur was not “in power” enough to be named as Khan because he was a younger brother. So, he was sent by Khans to lead one of the parts of Golden Horde that he later expanded to Crimea and minted there coins with his name, but with the tytle Amir to show a vassality from Golden Horde. But it doesn't mean independence of Qrim Yurt (or Ulus) From Golden Horde.

There were plenty of other Amirs who were sent to rule other parts (Uluses) of Golden Horde, but they didn't have right to put their names on coins.

No Emirate of Qrim is used among historian and I see no reasons to invent this term for Numista

I could not find a visual example, no. But considering how valuable the Stephen Album catalogue is to the numismatic area of the Islamic World, I do not think the lack of picture discredits the existence of this coin.

I see no reasons to create an issuer if nobody can really understand any single coin to put there. There are plenty of different theories among researchers of golden Horde coins and possibly Stephen Album used one of them for his catalogue…

what was made by any mint would have been intended for the entire Golden Horde.

Nobody knows how it was intendend to use quite a lot of coins of Golden Horde. Generally metall of the coin matters more that time then issuers. Plenty of Indian coins were found together with Golden Horde, they were also in circulation on this territory. So this really means nothing…

Moreover placing a title “Khan” on coins mean that this Khan pretended to control the whole Golden Horde or Main Horde, so he pretended to be a leader. But it doesn't mean that he could do it. And it doesn't mean that we need to separate all the Khans who minted coins, but couldn't really control an entire territory of Golden Horde (especially nobody can define it) to separate issuers. Just because we will need to separate a majority of them by this criteria.

why would coins be produced by the local amir of Qrim?

I guess because there was no clear prohibition to do it.

This is just semantics. On Numista, we have countries and issuers, but the difference has little relevance to the thread in question. Unless I am misunderstanding your point here…

Generally my point here that we don't need to invent new “universal” classification for Numista, but need to follow established traditional classification for some types of the coins, especially in the area where there is still no consensus or prevailed point of view.

As an example: coins of Swedish occupation of Riga are under Livonia (separate issuer) , coins of Swedish occupation of Novgorod are under Russian Empire (the country part of which was occupied), coins of Swedish occupation of Pomerania were (at least recently, but I beleive it shall stay there to avoid a mess among German states) under Sweden. Just because traditionally they all were listed like this... 

Just as a conclusion of my opinion for your proposal: I can agree that it is possible to separate:

a) Saqchi Khanate as an subissuer for Golden Horde and put coins of Noghay there

b) White Horde/Aq-Ordu as a subissuer for Mongol states and allow referee of Mongol states to put some coins there with duplicate of some coins that were mentioned in catalogs of Golden Horde coins under Golden Horde (mostly coins of Urus)

c) separate Khwarizm coins of Qongirat Sufis period  under separate issuer not under Golden Horde

For the other proposals for the moment I beleive everything shall stay under Golden Horde until other classification would be presented and recognised by professional scientists for Juchid coins

If we really want to separate White Horde (Aq-Ordu) I think it shall be done under Mongol States, not under Golden Horde. This is why I mentioned it

I see… I did not get that from your previous post. I do not think separating the White Horde from the Golden Horde is all that necessary just because the White Horde was technically a part of the Golden Horde (with the Golden Horde, in the most basic sense, being a combination of the White Horde and the Blue Horde, although with the Blue Horde khans being recognized as the overall leaders). Perhaps that is too basic of a summary, but that was what I got from everything I read.

I can say. The word Amir is a part of the inscription on the coin. As I understand it means that Tuqa-Timur was not “in power” enough to be named as Khan because he was a younger brother. So, he was sent by Khans to lead one of the parts of Golden Horde that he later expanded to Crimea and minted there coins with his name, but with the tytle Amir to show a vassality from Golden Horde. But it doesn't mean independence of Qrim Yurt (or Ulus) From Golden Horde.

I am aware the title “Amir” comes from the coins. And the fact that this rulers was titled Amir means he was basically the governor of a smaller area. We could call this issuer “Qrim, Emirs of”, but I do not see a reason to use a name as inconsistent as that, as compared to all other Emirate-based issuers.

Perhaps you would prefer the name “Crimean Ulus”? I had to explore the Ukrainian Wikipedia to find that term, but… perhaps you would like that one better. I wouldn't mind either way; from the information I have read, I see perfectly good reason to create a separate issuer, regardless of what name is decided in the end.

I see no reasons to create an issuer if nobody can really understand any single coin to put there. There are plenty of different theories among researchers of golden Horde coins and possibly Stephen Album used one of them for his catalogue…

We do not need pictures to create a coin page. We have a reference, we have a ruler, we have a time-frame, we have a denomination, and we have general descriptions as well (where his name and title are; what is on the reverse). We also have a reliable source indicating the issuer, so… I don't see this as a problem.

Just as a conclusion of my opinion for your proposal: I can agree that it is possible to separate:

a) Saqchi Khanate as an subissuer for Golden Horde and put coins of Noghay there

b) White Horde/Aq-Ordu as a subissuer for Mongol states and allow referee of Mongol states to put some coins there with duplicate of some coins that were mentioned in catalogs of Golden Horde coins under Golden Horde (mostly coins of Urus)

c) separate Khwarizm coins of Qongirat Sufis period  under separate issuer not under Golden Horde

A) I agree.

B) I still think it would be fine to have this as a sub-issuer of the Golden Horde as this was within the realm of the Golden Horde. Duplication of Urus wouldn't be necessary unless he happened to have coins minted within the realm of the Blue Horde (Stephen Album says he only had one mint at the capital of the White Horde; perhaps new coins have been discovered since 2011 which say otherwise though).

c) As above: I still think it would be fine to have this as a sub-issuer of the Golden Horde; however, I am also fine with this remaining separate under the Mongol states.

And I still believe the issuer for Qrim and the Kazan Khanate should be created, although I doubt you and I will come to an agreement on this part, seeing as how this conversation has progressed so far.

I do not think there is anything else I can add, so with all the information presented in this thread so far, I will leave the final judgement to the administrators.  :)

Grinya

@Compendium , I want to return them to coins from Exonumia:)

Please lets not mix all topics: issuers are one thing, categories another one. Tatarstan issuer exists, items in it can be coins, banknotes or different categories of Exonumia depending on their nature.

Here we are only talking about when we need an issuer and its sub issuers :-)

I globally agree with Sulfur proposal but am no specialist so I asked @Jarcek to help us sorting out this topic :-)

Hello guys!

I would like to ask you to ease up a little. This is very difficult topic in area that is significantly different from what we know from European history.

I would like to start with definition of Golden Horde - it is not a place, state or country. It is a space, space where Golden Horde can live their nomadic life. Horde, as group of people and animals occupies some area and this area can feed only certain ammount of heads (literally). For “state” organization, this meant that Horde itself had many nomadic groups that migrated in different areas. This is where original split of Ulus Djo on western and eastern part. It was too big for one Khan, so they made two. And this splitting was practiced again and again in western part, leading to many groups or hordes within the designated area. 

Title of Khan and with it, Khanate as a state would clearly be used when someone broke off the Golden Horde in general, and claimed ownership of the whole Horde.

Relationship between these groups was a bit different from western dukes/kings relationship. They had different concept of loyalty, going from total obedience to the Khan on one side to a rebellion on the other. 

Going back to the issuers proposed, generally, if we know that some part of the Horde separated itself with clear intent of independence, I would go for Golden Horde (we would need to prepare a section - and decide on its name) subissuer. Some “Khans” just wanted to become the Khans, not become independent.

Saqchi Khanate - this is where I believe you agreed that if it was separate state formation from Golden Horde, then new issuer should be created.

If we create a Golden Horde section, then if we have some clear coins there, we could create White Horde subissuer. @Grinya - Why should it be directly under Mongol states please? I am not sure I understood that.

Then there are those three:

Khanate of Kazan - if we have coins after 1438, then it should be new issuer.

Sibir and the East is really terrible name - it should probably be some Khanate, if independent then new issuer.

Qrim, Emirate of - this one is tricky. Again, the title would be Khan surely, the guy just used local title to not be seen as a competition. If independent, then it should be new issuer, if part of the Horde, then keep it within the Horde.

I am not knowledgeable enough about Sufid dynasty, but I see you agreed a bit there.

My last point was about the question raised why coins would be produced locally - that is actually easy to explain. Nomads did not need coins so much. It was needed only to trade with outside world. And Crimea had lot of contacts with outside world, so of course coins were produced there, locally, by the local group that “nomaded” there. In other words, these nomadic groups are something like nomadic mints, minting when it suits them, but still loyal to the Golden Horde.

Jarcek

 

I would like to start with definition of Golden Horde - it is not a place, state or country. It is a space, space where Golden Horde can live their nomadic life. Horde, as group of people and animals occupies some area and this area can feed only certain ammount of heads (literally). For “state” organization, this meant that Horde itself had many nomadic groups that migrated in different areas. 

Hello,

Initially, yes, but there were plenty of cities in this territory where Mongols and other people lived. Not only nomads lived there.

Jarcek

 

This is where original split of Ulus Djo on western and eastern part. It was too big for one Khan, so they made two. And this splitting was practiced again and again in western part, leading to many groups or hordes within the designated area. 

 

Title of Khan and with it, Khanate as a state would clearly be used when someone broke off the Golden Horde in general, and claimed ownership of the whole Horde.

 

Relationship between these groups was a bit different from western dukes/kings relationship. They had different concept of loyalty, going from total obedience to the Khan on one side to a rebellion on the other. 

Yes, to express my understanding in simple words, the title “Khan” means that you are the leader of the Main Horde, usually those who controlled a capital city. So some people pretended to be khans and fight against other khans, so there may simultaneously be 2-3-4 Khans and there are quite a lot of periods in such situation. But as I understand it didn't mean that they were heads of different states breaking off the Golden Horde, it usually meant that they fought for the leadership of the whole Golden Horde. 

Jarcek

 

Going back to the issuers proposed, generally, if we know that some part of the Horde separated itself with clear intent of independence, I would go for Golden Horde (we would need to prepare a section - and decide on its name) subissuer. Some “Khans” just wanted to become the Khans, not become independent.

 

Saqchi Khanate - this is where I believe you agreed that if it was separate state formation from Golden Horde, then new issuer should be created.

There are 3 reasons for me to agree with Saqchi Khanate as an subissuer, despite the fact that this term isn't used among Russian numismatists and scientists who use wording like “Saqchi is a Golden Horde city” : a) Noghay had never pretended to be a Khan, b) Noghay was the founder of the so-called Noghay Horde whose leaders were called Noghaids, not Juchids, and c) the term “Saqchi Khanate” is used in some auctions to describe the coins. But I see it is also possible to leave his coins among the Golden Horde

Jarcek

 

If we create a Golden Horde section, then if we have some clear coins there, we could create White Horde subissuer. @Grinya - Why should it be directly under Mongol states please? I am not sure I understood that.

I don't know too much about White Horde, but Zeno put it under Aq-Ordu two types of coins: from Great Mongols, before 665 and Juchid, from 665 to later 8th c. So, having Great Mongols coins there means we can't put them to Golden Horde which was Juchids country.

It would also be great to allow the addition of 2 issuers to one coin in the event of separation of Aq-Ordu.

Jarcek

 

Then there are those three:

 

Khanate of Kazan - if we have coins after 1438, then it should be new issuer.

Sibir and the East is really terrible name - it should probably be some Khanate, if independent then new issuer.

Qrim, Emirate of - this one is tricky. Again, the title would be Khan surely, the guy just used local title to not be seen as a competition. If independent, then it should be new issuer, if part of the Horde, then keep it within the Horde.

Khanate of Kazan. There is only an opinion of someone that one type of coin of Uliugh Muhammad (and I don't understand which one) was minted after 1438 in Kazan. More popular modern opinion is that Khanate of Kazan didn't mint its own coins. I met it in a couple of articles when I replied to previous threads. 

Sibir and the East: there is an opinion that the only coin of Sibir Khanate is a coin with the name of Ibrahim Khan, who is associated with the Khan Ibaq, who from some period began to be a Khan of Siberia. But he minted his coins in nomadic mint and nobody can prove that they were minted on the territory of the Sibirean Khanate and after Ibaq became to be a Siberian Khan. Taking this into account, I don't think we need to separate this issuer

Qrim, Emirate of: as far as I know, there was no open competition between Tuka-Timur (amir of Qrim) and his brothers Batu and Berke who led Golden Horde. The fact of using the title Amir instead of Khan confirms that Tuqa-Timur agreed with his lower range. 

But on the different stages of existence of Crimean Yurt (or Ulus, but not Khanate) there were some Khans fought against Khans who sit in Saray. I'd say level of vassality of Qrim changed quite often, but I don't think it is a reason to separate it as a subissuer unless there is a decision to separate all different mints as subissuers.

Jarcek

 

I am not knowledgeable enough about Sufid dynasty, but I see you agreed a bit there.

I agreed also because I don't know too much about Sufid coins and am not sure where they shall stay in the qatalogue. But as Sufids weren't Juchids, I think they shall stay out of Golden Horde. Possibly, these coins shall be put here without any subissuer.

Jarcek

 

My last point was about the question raised why coins would be produced locally - that is actually easy to explain. Nomads did not need coins so much. It was needed only to trade with outside world. And Crimea had lot of contacts with outside world, so of course coins were produced there, locally, by the local group that “nomaded” there. In other words, these nomadic groups are something like nomadic mints, minting when it suits them, but still loyal to the Golden Horde.

I'd like to add that they might use any coins caring only about weight and metal content, therefore, it is hard to say that coins minted e.g. in Qrim were intended to circulate within Crimean Ulus. They were intended to be used for trade with everyone who was ready to accept them

Alrighty… so I moved all information about issuers and rulers of the Golden Horde to this Sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RJdjwLK72VBuP2nQCSpGGl0t6Tgl5m4Kc2HZAGG10yU/edit?usp=sharing

I created a new Sheet for the Golden Horde so the future requests of other issuers and their ruling authorities won't be put off until this thread is dealt with, as more time might be needed for the administrators to determine what is to be done exactly with this issuer.

I changed the name of “Qrim, Emirate of” to “Crimean Ulus”, as there was no objection to that; I added "Aq-Ordu" as an alternate name to the White Horde, as that has been used a bit here; I have removed the "Sibir and the East" issuer and added the ruler to the general Golden Horde issuer, as I do believe more information would be needed to determine where exactly he would go exactly, if he were to be split from the main issuer. Of course, while the above Sheet reflects what I still believe should be done under the Golden Horde, the final decision will come from the administrators, and if they decide against anything in the above Sheet, they do not have to include it. Up to them.  :)

My only addition comment:

I don't know too much about White Horde, but Zeno put it under Aq-Ordu two types of coins: from Great Mongols, before 665 and Juchid, from 665 to later 8th c. So, having Great Mongols coins there means we can't put them to Golden Horde which was Juchids country.

 

It would also be great to allow the addition of 2 issuers to one coin in the event of separation of Aq-Ordu.

Zeno includes Aq-Ordu under their “Special Projects” area of the website, which is, from my understanding, a section on the website where an author has done a lot of research on one specific area. In regards to the Great Mongol period of Aq-Ordu, we have the coins of three cities (Jand, Barjin, and uncertain mint), but I cannot say if these belong to their own issuer because they are anonymous or attributed to the time of the ruler of the Great Mongols (specifically Guyuk).

When it comes to “Special Projects” on Zeno, these often include coins which are minted in certain areas, regardless of issuers. For example: under “Currency, Medals and Orders in al-Yaman”, we have issuers like the Rasulids or the Tahirids, but we also have mints in Yemen belonging to the overall Abbasid Caliphate. They mix these together because the project encompasses everything Yemen-related.

With all that being said, the reason why I would suggest including the White Horde under the Golden Horde is because I am specifically talking about the rulers of the White Horde, and not those listed on Zeno as pre-Juchid. Those from the White Horde have specific rulers we can identify as ruling the area of the White Horde, whereas the Aq-Ordu coins from the Great Mongols are anonymous, and could be located in that section solely because the mints were located in the same area (comparable to the Abbasids of Yemen).

That was how I interpreted all this, at least…

Done for issuers and rulers, thanks to everyone :-)

1. Please rename Eastern Juchid Ulus to Aq-Ordu or White Horde. 

2. Please change both currencies of Coins from the Sufid dynasty to Dinar (c. 1361-1389)

3. Please rename Saqchi Khanate  to Saqche Khanate and make the coins visible under Golden Horde (now I see them as Numista › Coins › Saqchi Khanate) and change the currency to Dirham (c. 1270-1300)

1 - Done

2 - Done

3 - It probably needs nighly reorder to correctly show under Golden Horde, currency is done.

Please return an opportunity to use Noghai as a ruler of Golden Horde

Grinya

Please return an opportunity to use Noghai as a ruler of Golden Horde

Can you link an example coin please?

N#301389
 

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=64412

Grinya

N#301389
 

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=64412

 

I dont know much, but from links you shared I see that those coins would be genoese issues from the Qrim emporion.

Noghay being named for diplomatic reasons.

Or were they really corulers of khanate with Toqta?

No evidence for Genoese origin, this is only version. 

Traditionally these coins named as “Toqta with Noghay” under Golden Horde, so I'd propose to follow a traditional naming until further proofs.

Grinya

No evidence for Genoese origin, this is only version. 

Traditionally these coins named as “Toqta with Noghay” under Golden Horde, so I'd propose to follow a traditional naming until further proofs.

Naming ofc, but ruling authorities are proved ones.

You can totally say in the title both rulers, without adding them.as official ruling authorities in the metadata, hence my question :-)

If Noghay is named out of respect, diplomacy or else, then he should not appear as ruler in metadata (like when dead and/or foreign rulers appear on coins, for instance)

Ok, no problem, let's stay as it is.

You've added some fake issuers without any serious proof, but required from me some proofs for the facts that scientifically unproven…

Grinya

Ok, no problem, let's stay as it is.

 

You've added some fake issuers without any serious proof, but required from me some proofs for the facts that scientifically unproven…

Sorry you feel this way. I feel there may be a misunderstanding here: metadata (issuers, ruling authorities, mints etc) are here to describe what we know (sometimes, knowing is just best hypothesis ofc) is linked to the issued coin 

For instance, in medieval france, many coins called “Denier Tournois” are just imitating actual coins minted in Tours City, and we keep this Turonus Civitas information in title ofc, but we dont add Tours as actual mint for the coin as we know it was not minted there, despite whats written on it.

I cant add a ruler for an issuer if this ruler never actually ruled this issuer, even if some coins bear its name. We can use comments and precisions in title to give users understanding of this matter :-)

As far as I know, he was a ruler by not being a ruler… a shadow eminence really. I can easily see why would city on Crimea want to be on good terms with him.