"Die Stadt Berlin erwarb das Münzrecht in Gemeinschaft mit anderen märkischen Städten und zwar mit Cöln, Frankfurt, Spandau, Bernau, Eberswalde, Landsberg, Straussberg, Müncheberg, Drossen, Fürstenwalde, Mittenwalde, Wriezen und Freienwalde erst 1369. Diese Städte kauften nämlich von Markgraf Otto VII für 6500 Mark Silber das Recht des sogenannten ewigen Pfennigs, was soviel besagt als:
das Recht Pfennige zu prägen, die fortwährend Gültigkeit hatten und nicht wie die anderen Brandenburger Pfennige der üblichen alljährlichen Uniwechselung bedurften."
The city of Berlin acquired the right to mint coins together with other Brandenburg cities, namely Cologne, Frankfurt, Spandau, Bernau, Eberswalde, Landsberg, Straussberg, Müncheberg, Drossen, Fürstenwalde, Mittenwalde, Wriezen and Freienwalde, in 1369. These cities bought the right to mint the so-called perpetual penny from Margrave Otto VII for 6500 marks of silver:
the right to mint pfennigs that were valid perpetually and did not require the usual annual changeover like the other Brandenburg pfennigs.
Status changed to Started(Compendium, 8 Nov 2023, 20:38)
Status changed to Done(Compendium, 8 Nov 2023, 20:43)
This is in my opinion by far the worst and most illogical change to the catalogue yet. All these citys were clearly under german influence, for the most part even german themselves. Moving them to Poland will not only make the search for them much harder for most of the collectors (as most catalogues list them under Germany), it is also simply a misrepresentation of facts.
Putting PRUSSIA under Poland simply because a part of Prussian territory is on current polish land is simply wrong. It is often regarded as the predecessor of the german nation state, for obvious reasons.
The Teutonic order had its capital move in times, Mergenthein in South-Western Germany was also capital city of the Teutonic Order for 250 years
A Polish Nunismatic catalogue will list most of these issuers and coins as Polish or Poland related coins, whilst a German catalogue will list these as German coins.
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From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
We dont move kingdoms spanking on several current countries into one country, they are their own main issuer, like Bohemia, HRE, etc. Their capital location does not mean they should move.
Only entities fully part of current countries are sorted under their states, its why HRE cities, counties, bishoprics etc are sorted in France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Poland etc.
This is in my opinion by far the worst and most illogical change to the catalogue yet. All these citys were clearly under german influence, for the most part even german themselves. Moving them to Poland will not only make the search for them much harder for most of the collectors (as most catalogues list them under Germany), it is also simply a misrepresentation of facts.
Putting PRUSSIA under Poland simply because a part of Prussian territory is on current polish land is simply wrong. It is often regarded as the predecessor of the german nation state, for obvious reasons.
I agree with you. Just want to show you guys that Drossen city cant be under Polish states. If we do that, all issuers i mention above should be moved also. This is my statement as referee for Poland.
Danzig should be listed separately, as it was a self-governing entity between 1918 & 1939.
Prior to 1918, Danzig was part of Germany.
Aidan.
Brittany was a self governing entity for a long time, still sorted as french state
Danzig was internationally recognised during the days after the carnage of World War I under the League of Nations.
Brittany ceased to exist prior to the modern era - in the days when rulers could take over territories whenever they felt like it - in this case, by the Kings of France.
Category of German Notgelds would be in a mess then. Quite a lot of the cities shall be moved to Poland, some like Tilsit and Pillau - to Russia (as a compensation for Russian coins of Spitzbergen under Norway?:))), issuers from imperial territory of Alsace-Lorraine - to France, etc….
Several issuers of free cities of the Holy Roman Empire of Germanic Nations where already moved in the last few years from German States to France, Poland etc.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
The Teutonic order had its capital move in times, Mergenthein in South-Western Germany was also capital city of the Teutonic Order for 250 years
A Polish Nunismatic catalogue will list most of these issuers and coins as Polish or Poland related coins, whilst a German catalogue will list these as German coins.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
The Teutonic order had its capital move in times, Mergenthein in South-Western Germany was also capital city of the Teutonic Order for 250 years
A Polish Nunismatic catalogue will list most of these issuers and coins as Polish or Poland related coins, whilst a German catalogue will list these as German coins.
As for Teutonic order why is under german states in the same bag with Prussia ?
Teutonic Order, German Order, Order of the Hospital of the Blessed Virgin Mary of the German House in Jerusalem (Latin: Ordo domus Sanctae Mariae Theutonicorum) - one of the three largest, next to the Hospitallers and Knights Templar, Christian orders of knights that were established in the wake of the Crusades in the 11th and 12th centuries. Brought to Masovia in 1226 by Konrad of Mazowiecki to ensure the defense of the Piast estates against Prussia, he conquered and Christianized them, militarily took over the areas of later East Prussia and today's Latvia and Estonia, creating his own state from these lands[3]. - Should be a separate country.
The Teutonic order had its capital move in times, Mergenthein in South-Western Germany was also capital city of the Teutonic Order for 250 years
A Polish Nunismatic catalogue will list most of these issuers and coins as Polish or Poland related coins, whilst a German catalogue will list these as German coins.
As for Teutonic order why is under german states in the same bag with Prussia ?
Teutonic Order, German Order, Order of the Hospital of the Blessed Virgin Mary of the German House in Jerusalem (Latin: Ordo domus Sanctae Mariae Theutonicorum) - one of the three largest, next to the Hospitallers and Knights Templar, Christian orders of knights that were established in the wake of the Crusades in the 11th and 12th centuries. Brought to Masovia in 1226 by Konrad of Mazowiecki to ensure the defense of the Piast estates against Prussia, he conquered and Christianized them, militarily took over the areas of later East Prussia and today's Latvia and Estonia, creating his own state from these lands[3]. - Should be a separate country.
Here from Wikipedia
The origins of the order lie in a field hospital for Bremen and Lübeck merchants during the Third Crusade around 1190 in the Holy Land during the siege of the city of Acre. Pope Innocent III confirmed on February 19, 1199 the conversion of the hospital community into an order of knights and the awarding of the Knights Hospitaller and Templar Rules to the brothers of the German House of St. Mary in Jerusalem.[2] After the hospital community was elevated to a spiritual order of knights, the members of the originally charitable community became active in the Holy Roman Empire, the Holy Land, the Mediterranean region and Transylvania during the 13th century and took part in the German colonization of the East. This led to a number of branches with more or less long existence. From the end of the 13th century onwards, the Teutonic Order state founded in the Baltics played a central role. At the end of the 14th century it covered an area of around 200,000 square kilometers.
later I believe in 1525 it joined to become a member state of the Holy Roman Empire
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What i send above was also from Wikipedia. If good understand Teutonic order is under german states as Pope decide to give it under control of the German House. So why Templar Knights also are not under german states ? It was the sam law you mention.
I think Teutonic order should be its own main issuer indeed; we'll rediscuss with fellow admins this issuer' structure question overall, thanks you all for your inputs and feedback!
I think Teutonic order should be its own main issuer indeed; we'll rediscuss with fellow admins this issuer' structure question overall, thanks you all for your inputs and feedback!
The Teutonic order still exists today with now the 66th Grand Master
Some Numismatic Catalogues and Auction Houses split the Rule of the Teutonic order from Mergentheim
so Coins medals etc. minted after 1525 are 100% German and should definitly be under Germany.
Before that all rulers have been Germans or Austrians but indeed the lands where far away from modern day Germany. More like a colonial exclave with the goal to bring Christianisation to the north east of Europe.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
You cannot just overlay a map from 500 years ago with a map from today, and then say a 500 year old town, in those days adherent to another political entity than the one on the newest map, should now be cataloged under the newest map geography.
There is no logic behind that!
Historically, the political affluence between then and now is not always reflected in the geographical position on a map!
You cannot just overlay a map from 500 years ago with a map from today, and then say a 500 year old town, in those days adherent to another political entity than the one on the newest map, should now be cataloged under the newest map geography.
There is no logic behind that!
Historically, the political affluence between then and now is not always reflected in the geographical position on a map!
To make you understand why we suggested to use current borders for cities, whatever their cultural and political history, it is because many cities issued coins in different contexts along their history. So sorting all those contexts in different sub issuers leads same city to be cut in multiple pieces.
Its challengeable of course, just wanted to explain where it did come from.
For instance we sort under France all ancient parts of HRE currently in France borders. Maybe we shouldnt. But there was a inconsistency here, hence the discussion.
On a lighter note, please dont think issuer changes are heavy or risky techniccally speaking: silesian entities put under Poland for one day were reverted in a 3 min work. Collaboration relies on iterations, from my perspective. Its OK to try things and see how it goes.
So why Silesia is back under Bohemia ? Its the same story as Drossen city and Why kolberg and stettin and cammin are not under polish states ? I cant see here consistency
To make you understand why we suggested to use current borders for cities, whatever their cultural and political history, it is because many cities issued coins in different contexts along their history. So sorting all those contexts in different sub issuers leads same city to be cut in multiple pieces.
Its challengeable of course, just wanted to explain where it did come from.
For instance we sort under France all ancient parts of HRE currently in France borders. Maybe we shouldnt. But there was a inconsistency here, hence the discussion.
On a lighter note, please dont think issuer changes are heavy or risky techniccally speaking: silesian entities put under Poland for one day were reverted in a 3 min work. Collaboration relies on iterations, from my perspective. Its OK to try things and see how it goes.
i can see your consistency here : https://en.numista.com/forum/topic138568.html#p1111107 That is why I resign as referee for Poland as i lost trust in numista team. as provided link above you are going in that direction - Livonian coin described as Poland Danzig. Good luck
I reverted because clearly it led to too many complaints and needs further thinking. No one is right or wrong on this topic, as rules are variable.
That is why i told you , that placing drossen city under polish states is the same as placing silesia under poland. Yet we have silesia back under bohemia and drossen under polish city….
You cannot just overlay a map from 500 years ago with a map from today, and then say a 500 year old town, in those days adherent to another political entity than the one on the newest map, should now be cataloged under the newest map geography.
There is no logic behind that!
Historically, the political affluence between then and now is not always reflected in the geographical position on a map!
Precise issue is that Drossen was from my perspective not more german than polish 500 years ago. Putting it in German is teleological, I personnally prefer geographical based on current borders to precisely avoid any nationalist dissension.
What if Germany as a country never emerged in 19th century ? Nationalist visions of the world and its history all come from quite modern views.
Another possibility is that we could have a historic Brandenburg entity like we have Bohemia. But it would mean to rebuild hundreds of issuers.
You cannot just overlay a map from 500 years ago with a map from today, and then say a 500 year old town, in those days adherent to another political entity than the one on the newest map, should now be cataloged under the newest map geography.
There is no logic behind that!
Historically, the political affluence between then and now is not always reflected in the geographical position on a map!
Precise issue is that Drossen was from my perspective not more german than polish 500 years ago. Putting it in German is teleological, I personnally prefer geographical based on current borders to precisely avoid any nationalist dissension.
What if Germany as a country never emerged in 19th century ? Nationalist visions of the world and its history all come from quite modern views.
Another possibility is that we could have a historic Brandenburg entity like we have Bohemia. But it would mean to rebuild hundreds of issuers.
Bishopric of Cammin - Kamień pomorski part of modern Poland founded by polish monarch. - where you can find it ? in German states
There is also Kolberg still in german states…
…. and dont forget Bytom now Silesia but Bytom is one of the oldest cities of Upper Silesia, originally recorded as Bitom in 1136, when it was part of the Medieval Kingdom of Poland. Archaeological discoveries have shown that there was a fortified settlement (a gród) here, probably founded by the Polish King Bolesław I the Brave in the early 11th century.
Was established as Polish and now is still in Poland borders. Where you can find it ? In Bohemia…
Drossen city : In the Early Middle Ages the area was inhabited by Lubuszanie, one of the Polish tribes, and in the 10th century it became part of the emerging Polish state under the Piast dynasty.[2] In the early Piast period, a fortified settlement existed nearby the present-day town and the area formed part of the Lubusz castellany within the Kingdom of Poland until the mid-13th century.
Founded by polish and now part of poland. Where you can find it ? In Polish states.
Dear Compendiumyou are wrong and don't want to admit. Its ok, everyone make a mistakes its normal thing.
To be honest I dont understand what you wish? It seems you asked something then complained when it was tried… Using modern borders or not? I said I agreed personnally with modern borders :-)
Status changed to Done(Compendium, 17 Nov 2023, 22:17)
The referee of Polish States has agreed that these coins fall into German states just like Brandenburg does. I am not trying to be possibly rude like the last guy but when you have a city that was issuing coins while inside a German State at the time it should fall under German States.
The referee of Polish States has agreed that these coins fall into German states just like Brandenburg does. I am not trying to be possibly rude like the last guy but when you have a city that was issuing coins while inside a German State at the time it should fall under German States.
@geraltttt82 Please explain to them. There needs to be a Drossen added under German states not Poland so that these can be moved there and not as undee all the states which is what is occurring now after I made the request to add KM# 3
Please put back coins to Drossen issuer (which still exists in DB but is just empty); it will be technically the same issuer even if we change its mother category (from Polish states to German states). Coins should not have been attached to german states directly in the meantime we discuss issuers' sorting (by geography or “history”)
Please put back coins to Drossen issuer (which still exists in DB but is just empty); it will be technically the same issuer even if we change its mother category (from Polish states to German states). Coins should not have been attached to german states directly in the meantime we discuss issuers' sorting (by geography or “history”)
@geraltttt82 sure I will make a request for it to be put back there for now
