New Roman Province [solved]

Hello

I would like to request the addition of a new issuer for Roman provincial coins.

Thank you in advance

• the name of the issuer in English (and if possible also in French and Spanish)

En: Uncertain Northern Italian mint

Fr: Atelier italique du Nord incertain

Es: Ceca Incierta del Norte de Italia

It should be under Roman Provinces > Italia, Province of > Uncertain Northern Italian mint

• its Wikidata code (for example, Q854 for Sri Lanka)

n/a

• the link of one or more Numista records that you want to classify under this issuer

N#67143

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/search/browse?city_id=974 

During the period of the civil wars of the first century BC, a few isolated civic issues had been made in Italy, all produced probably in the forties and thirties BC at Paestum and a couple of other uncertain mints. Some of these issues were important since two of them saw the introduction of orichalcum/brass coinage to the west, signed by praetors Gaius Clovius and Quintus Oppius. Gaius Clovius also produced one of the only large issues of base metal currency made in Italy between Sulla and the Augustan reform of circa 23 BC.

I created “Northern Italy” as a sub issuer, no need to put “uncertain mint” in it :-)

I proposed the issuer following the existing ones in Numista. The situation is the same with a dozen uncertain mints in Greece, such as this one:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=uncertain_ionia

So, for consistency, I think they should be named the same.

“Northern Italy” was also not an issuer, just the geographic area where this uncertain issuer (probably a civic mint) was situated.

It also looks like the issuer is grouped in “Italy (ancient)” whereas it should be in Roman Provinces >> Italia, Province of.

Is Italy a roman province ? DOes it exist already? Can you point me to it please ?

Italy / Italia was a Roman Senatorial province. I don't think it exists in Numista already. There are several Italian civic issuers for coins, including Paestum, which was the main one, so I suppose the province needs to be added as well.

The coin seems to have been moved to the Roman Republic now, which is not right since it was a civic issue.

Ok. Do you spot other italian civic issues in the current Roman Republic issuer?

It seems Italy was not a province before 3rd century at best.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Italy

Should we create a new category for italian civic issues? (cf my question above about potential other similar coinage?)

This is how RPC lists the coins and also how they were already listed in Numista before.

Most provinces had civic or semi-autonomous coin issues before formally being structured as provinces. E.g. Province of Thrace had coins issued in the 1st century BC, before it was organised as a distinct province in 46 AD:

N#311663

https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/1715 

Similar situations are also in many other sections of Numista (e.g. pre-federal coins under the United States, which formed after these coins were issued; feudal coins under Belgium, which is a modern state, etc.). So I am not sure why this particular province should be different?

Well, sorry but I'm no specialist and creating a whole Italian category for a few coins from unknown location and Paestum only seem for me a good case for understanding better :-)

RPC put 22 coins in this “Province”

Seems weird to me to create a whole section for only one identified city?

To be noted: 4 roman Paestum coins are currently listed in greek Poseidonia

Compendium

Well, sorry but I'm no specialist and creating a whole Italian category for a few coins from unknown location and Paestum only seem for me a good case for understanding better :-)

 

Seems weird to me to create a whole section for only one identified city?

Is there a minimum number of coins or issuers for a section in Numista? I see a lot of sections with only one issuer and less than 22 coins, for example, Titii people / Titium

I think the authors of RPC are specialists though :), and this is how these coins are catalogued.

 

To be noted: 4 roman Paestum coins are currently listed in greek Poseidonia

Those are all Greek coins. Roman provincials were only issued after 46BC in Paestum. 

Ok thanks, I understand better :-)

Done!

Why is it called a city, though? There is no evidence that these were civic issues. There are just disputed theories, some arguing that these were mercenary or fleet coinage issued by naval praetor Q Oppius. In Italy there were probably civic issues also from Heraclea and Velia, but there is not much evidence that the coins of Oppius were minted there.

Also, I see that the other ancient uncertain mints were changed to cities and I am pretty sure that most of these are also questionable names.

We updated naming recently indeed.

Mints have dedicated field in Numista, and issuers never are mints. 

Please help us find right naming on a case by case approach

What was the problem with the mints? The term “city” is in most cases not correct, as I've explained above. In RPC and other catalogues, as well as auction houses, these are called “uncertain mints” and there is no evidence they were civic issues, for neither Rome nor ancient Greece. So I think this is the right name, given that it's the one used in specialised literature

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/openlink.php?l=2290579|5566|22094|f2d0096aa317067de558a54eb63f5487

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/openlink.php?l=2282099|5544|437|42c0b9633ee6e4d9620f24cfa7e08430

Brünhild

What was the problem with the mints? The term “city” is in most cases not correct, as I've explained above. In RPC and other catalogues, as well as auction houses, these are called “uncertain mints” and there is no evidence they were civic issues, for neither Rome nor ancient Greece. So I think this is the right name, given that it's the one used in specialised literature

 

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/openlink.php?l=2290579|5566|22094|f2d0096aa317067de558a54eb63f5487

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/openlink.php?l=2282099|5544|437|42c0b9633ee6e4d9620f24cfa7e08430

Hi!
The issue is that mints are not correponding to Numista's definition of issuers: https://en.numista.com/help/add-or-modify-an-issuing-authority-in-the-catalogue-191.html

I am not sure how these mints do not correspond to the Numista definition. They were also organised communities, just like abbeys which are given in the example. Can you please clarify what you mean? It seems to me that if Sealand satisfies this definition an ancient mobile mint should too.

It is the same situation explained in the description of this coin, for example, also issued by an uncertain mint:

N#193390

Also, most ancient Iberian issuers in Numista are also mints, even if it's not mentioned in the name. The ones that are cities or peoples seem to be named as such. The rest are just called mints in the literature.

And by the way, that page needs some spellchecking.