Please change ‘Republic (Since 1937)’ to 'Republic (Since 1949), as 1949 was when the Republic of Ireland was declared.
Notes released between 1938 & early 1949 should be listed under ‘Dominion (1937-49)’ instead.
Aidan.
I need confirmation from Ireland referee for this change (and for him to move banknotes eventually)
As banknote referee for Ireland, I do not agree with any change to the current ruling authorities. BCNumismatics is obsessed with this matter and has raised it over and over again. Whilst the term “Republic” was only explicitly applied in 1949, the constitutional arrangements from 1937 are identical in virtually all other regards, so it makes no sense to create a new “Dominion” ruling authority between 1937 and 1949 and even less sense to apply the British monarchs to this period. We should take our lead from the coins and banknotes, which divide between “Saorstát Eireann” and “Éire” in 1937.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Please change ‘Republic (Since 1937)’ to 'Republic (Since 1949), as 1949 was when the Republic of Ireland was declared.
Notes released between 1938 & early 1949 should be listed under ‘Dominion (1937-49)’ instead.
Aidan.
I need confirmation from Ireland referee for this change (and for him to move banknotes eventually)
As banknote referee for Ireland, I do not agree with any change to the current ruling authorities. BCNumismatics is obsessed with this matter and has raised it over and over again. Whilst the term “Republic” was only explicitly applied in 1949, the constitutional arrangements from 1937 are identical in virtually all other regards, so it makes no sense to create a new “Dominion” ruling authority between 1937 and 1949 and even less sense to apply the British monarchs to this period. We should take our lead from the coins and banknotes, which divide between “Saorstát Eireann” and “Éire” in 1937.
You are confused between when the Constitution was adopted & when the Republic of Ireland was declared.
Between 1937 & 1949, Ireland was actually a Dominion inside the British Commonwealth, not a republic - as a republic was not allowed to be a member of the British Commonwealth until the London Declaration was passed a week after Ireland had become a republic to allow for republics to recognise King George VI as Head of the Commonwealth, a step that India took on 26 January 1950, when the Republic of India was declared.
King George VI in relation to Ireland between 1937 & 1949 was in the area of external relations - signing papers on behalf of the Irish Government such as accrediting Ireland's Ambassador to the Holy See & in relation to the appointment of High Commissioners to Ireland. The latter had to have an audience with the King in London to get their papers signed before they took up their postings in Dublin.
How is it faulty? Just because a few specific duties were fulfilled by the British king doesn't mean that Ireland didn't have a president as head of state and wasn't a republic. The 1949 changes clarified the situation. We might call the period 1937-1949 an “undeclared” republic but, since the official name of the country didn't change in 1949, the distinction isn't one we could accurately record in the ruling authority field. To claim that the Commonwealth could have stopped Ireland being a republic is ridiculous. It's like claiming the UK's refusal to recognize Rhodesian UDI stopped it becoming a republic in 1970. I know this is an issue dear to you but you need more persuasive arguments than this.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
How is it faulty? Just because a few specific duties were fulfilled by the British king doesn't mean that Ireland didn't have a president as head of state and wasn't a republic. The 1949 changes clarified the situation. We might call the period 1937-1949 an “undeclared” republic but, since the official name of the country didn't change in 1949, the distinction isn't one we could accurately record in the ruling authority field. To claim that the Commonwealth could have stopped Ireland being a republic is ridiculous. It's like claiming the UK's refusal to recognize Rhodesian UDI stopped it becoming a republic in 1970. I know this is an issue dear to you but you need more persuasive arguments than this.
Ireland's declaration as a republic on 18 April 1949 automatically severed its membership of the British Commonwealth.
Until then, only a Dominion could be a British Commonwealth member state - & Ireland was a Dominion whose head of state was King George VI.
Between 1938 & 1949, the Presidents of Ireland had no international recognition - like the 1970-79 Presidents of Rhodesia.
Rhodesia was legally a British colony & Ireland was legally a British Dominion.
Ireland's declaration as a republic on 18 April 1949 automatically severed its membership of the British Commonwealth.
Until then, only a Dominion could be a British Commonwealth member state - & Ireland was a Dominion whose head of state was King George VI.
Between 1938 & 1949, the Presidents of Ireland had no international recognition - like the 1970-79 Presidents of Rhodesia.
Rhodesia was legally a British colony & Ireland was legally a British Dominion.
Aidan.
When it comes to determining the ruling authorities, the only laws that matter for both situations are the ones inside those countries. This isn't about whether we like what happened or if others at the time recognized it. It's about what happened internally.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Please change ‘Republic (Since 1937)’ to 'Republic (Since 1949), as 1949 was when the Republic of Ireland was declared.
Notes released between 1938 & early 1949 should be listed under ‘Dominion (1937-49)’ instead.
Aidan.
I need confirmation from Ireland referee for this change (and for him to move banknotes eventually)
As banknote referee for Ireland, I do not agree with any change to the current ruling authorities. BCNumismatics is obsessed with this matter and has raised it over and over again. Whilst the term “Republic” was only explicitly applied in 1949, the constitutional arrangements from 1937 are identical in virtually all other regards, so it makes no sense to create a new “Dominion” ruling authority between 1937 and 1949 and even less sense to apply the British monarchs to this period. We should take our lead from the coins and banknotes, which divide between “Saorstát Eireann” and “Éire” in 1937.
I agree with this. No monarchs appear on coins or notes of Ireland, so the current ruling authorities for Ireland are appropriate, taking its lead from the coins and notes themselves.
Please change ‘Republic (Since 1937)’ to 'Republic (Since 1949), as 1949 was when the Republic of Ireland was declared.
Notes released between 1938 & early 1949 should be listed under ‘Dominion (1937-49)’ instead.
Aidan.
I need confirmation from Ireland referee for this change (and for him to move banknotes eventually)
As banknote referee for Ireland, I do not agree with any change to the current ruling authorities. BCNumismatics is obsessed with this matter and has raised it over and over again. Whilst the term “Republic” was only explicitly applied in 1949, the constitutional arrangements from 1937 are identical in virtually all other regards, so it makes no sense to create a new “Dominion” ruling authority between 1937 and 1949 and even less sense to apply the British monarchs to this period. We should take our lead from the coins and banknotes, which divide between “Saorstát Eireann” and “Éire” in 1937.
I agree with this. No monarchs appear on coins or notes of Ireland, so the current ruling authorities for Ireland are appropriate, taking its lead from the coins and notes themselves.
Neither of those sites state that Ireland was a Dominion between 1937 and 1949. What is it there that you feel backs up your argument?
The second link refers to the External Relations Act, 1936, which declared that King George VI had a role in Ireland's external affairs. The external affairs power is possessed by heads of state, which the King was, as the Presidents of Ireland (Douglas Hyde & Sean T. O'Kelly) were internationally unrecognised. It was the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 (came into force on 18 April 1949) that created the Republic itself & shifted the external affairs power from the King to be vested in the then President of Ireland - Sean T. O'Kelly, who served until 1959. He was the first President of the Republic of Ireland to be fully recognised as a head of state.
Between 1922 & 1949, Ireland was a member of the British Commonwealth - which prior to the 1949 Declaration of London, meant that only a Dominion could be a member of the British Commonwealth. All the Dominions had King George VI as their common head of state, even though the position of the Crown itself was divided among the member Dominions (excluding Newfoundland, which gave up self-government in 1934) in the form of a personal union. King George VI was as much King of Ireland as he was King of Canada.
I was wondering how much the hole devalues the coin?? Does it hold as much value because there are so few of them 🤔 On another note, I picked up a George 3rd Hibernia half penny recently and was wondering when the earliest Hibernia text was put on a coin? Also… I think this counts as kings and queens on Irish money…doesn't it? Bren
This is what the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936, actually says. It explicitly avoids referring to anyone as “King of Ireland”.
1.—(1) The diplomatic representatives of Saorstát Eireann in other countries shall be appointed on the authority of the Executive Council.
(2) The consular representatives of Saorstát Eireann in other countries shall be appointed by or on the authority of the Executive Council.
2.—Every international agreement concluded on behalf of Saorstát Eireann shall be concluded by or on the authority of the Executive Council.
3.—(1) It is hereby declared and enacted that, so long as Saorstát Eireann is associated with the following nations, that is to say, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand, and South Africa, and so long as the king recognised by those nations as the symbol of their co-operation continues to act on behalf of each of those nations (on the advice of the several Governments thereof) for the purposes of the appointment of diplomatic and consular representatives and the conclusion of international agreements, the king so recognised may, and is hereby authorised to, act on behalf of Saorstát Eireann for the like purposes as and when advised by the Executive Council so to do.
(2) Immediately upon the passing of this Act, the instrument of abdication executed by His Majesty King Edward the Eighth on the 10th day of December, 1936, (a copy whereof is set out in the Schedule to this Act) shall have effect according to the tenor thereof and His said Majesty shall, for the purposes of the foregoing sub-section of this section and all other (if any) purposes, cease to be king, and the king for those purposes shall henceforth be the person who, if His said Majesty had died on the 10th day of December, 1936, unmarried, would for the time being be his successor under the law of Saorstát Eireann.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
This is what the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936, actually says. It explicitly avoids referring to anyone as “King of Ireland”.
1.—(1) The diplomatic representatives of Saorstát Eireann in other countries shall be appointed on the authority of the Executive Council.
(2) The consular representatives of Saorstát Eireann in other countries shall be appointed by or on the authority of the Executive Council.
2.—Every international agreement concluded on behalf of Saorstát Eireann shall be concluded by or on the authority of the Executive Council.
3.—(1) It is hereby declared and enacted that, so long as Saorstát Eireann is associated with the following nations, that is to say, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand, and South Africa, and so long as the king recognised by those nations as the symbol of their co-operation continues to act on behalf of each of those nations (on the advice of the several Governments thereof) for the purposes of the appointment of diplomatic and consular representatives and the conclusion of international agreements, the king so recognised may, and is hereby authorised to, act on behalf of Saorstát Eireann for the like purposes as and when advised by the Executive Council so to do.
(2) Immediately upon the passing of this Act, the instrument of abdication executed by His Majesty King Edward the Eighth on the 10th day of December, 1936, (a copy whereof is set out in the Schedule to this Act) shall have effect according to the tenor thereof and His said Majesty shall, for the purposes of the foregoing sub-section of this section and all other (if any) purposes, cease to be king, and the king for those purposes shall henceforth be the person who, if His said Majesty had died on the 10th day of December, 1936, unmarried, would for the time being be his successor under the law of Saorstát Eireann.
The references to the King is actually referring to King George VI, as Eamon de Valera used the External Relations Act as a way of covering things in a very ambigious way.
Yes, King George VI used his external relations power to sign off on diplomatic appointments, such as appointing High Commissioners to Ireland, which required visits to the King in London before the High Commissioners took up their postings in Dublin.
Irish diplomatic appointments to foreign countries required the King's signature , but there was a delay in approval of appointments from Dublin as the relevant documents signed off by the King had to arrive from London.
I'll rely on what's actually in the Act, not what might appear on Wikipedia today.
Doesn't change the fact that King George VI's exercise of his foreign relations powers upon the advice of the Irish Government was that of his position as King of Ireland.
I'll rely on what's actually in the Act, not what might appear on Wikipedia today.
Doesn't change the fact that King George VI's exercise of his foreign relations powers upon the advice of the Irish Government was that of his position as King of Ireland.
Aidan.
What position as"King of Ireland"? If that position had existed, it would be in the Act.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
The 1943 ½ Crown is the Prince of modern Irish coins - with 500 examples known.
Aidan.
It's also from the reigns of King Gustav V and Emperor Hirohito.
And King Koroki IV and Queen Salote Tupou III!
I love coins. Especially silver, gold and anything really old.
Member of the Royal Numismatic Society of New Zealand and the Auckland Numismatic Society
I'll rely on what's actually in the Act, not what might appear on Wikipedia today.
Doesn't change the fact that King George VI's exercise of his foreign relations powers upon the advice of the Irish Government was that of his position as King of Ireland.
Aidan.
What position as"King of Ireland"? If that position had existed, it would be in the Act.
When the monarch is being advised by his ministers in relation to the affairs of Country A - it means that he is being advised as King of Country A as opposed to his role as King of Country B & so on.
For example, when King Charles III is being advised by his ministers in Grenada - it is in relation to his position as King of Grenada as opposed to his role as King of Australia & so on.
The same thing applied to King George VI being advised by Irish ministers - being part of his role as King of Ireland, especially in relation to the King's foreign relations powers - which was NOT within the power of the President until 18 April 1949, when the Republic of Ireland Act came into effect.
The reference to the King under the Irish legislation after the abdication of King Edward VIII is directly referring to King George VI without directly stating that he was King of Ireland.
When the monarch is being advised by his ministers in relation to the affairs of Country A - it means that he is being advised as King of Country A as opposed to his role as King of Country B & so on.
For example, when King Charles III is being advised by his ministers in Grenada - it is in relation to his position as King of Grenada as opposed to his role as King of Australia & so on.
The same thing applied to King George VI being advised by Irish ministers - being part of his role as King of Ireland, especially in relation to the King's foreign relations powers - which was NOT within the power of the President until 18 April 1949, when the Republic of Ireland Act came into effect.
The reference to the King under the Irish legislation after the abdication of King Edward VIII is directly referring to King George VI without directly stating that he was King of Ireland.
Aidan.
You are right that the legislation refers to George VI without directly stating that he was King of Ireland. That's because he wasn't. It does refer to the other countries of which he was king, so this was a clear and deliberate omission.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
In name he was until 1949, but no one would acknowledge it fully and I think he knew it would anger MOST Irish if he tried to impose himself.
However 1949 made it absolute and the last governor general became state President.
1922 to 1937 it was merely the Irish Free State (Saorstat Eireann) and only a Dominion on say the level of New Zealand or Canada in the British Empire. In fact many Britons were angry when the first Irish stamps overprinted images of George V, and with in a year all of them barring the seahorse high values, had been replaced by new stamps with Irish themes (The seahorses at least had no printing on his Britannic Majesty.
Earlies with overprints Irish designs 1922 and 1937 Seahorse high values before 1937.
In 1937 the country became known as Eire (Ireland) but yet was still under British association/control. However Ireland had a constitution now, yet still only had a Prime Miister and representative of King George VI.
Only in 1949 and late in that year, was Britain given the final heave ho, but at least Britain did not impose British rulers on Irish coins.
Ironically Ireland's first coins were designed by an Englishman (Percy Metcalfe) and minted at the Royal Mint until the 1970s and also used the British currency system.
I love coins. Especially silver, gold and anything really old.
Member of the Royal Numismatic Society of New Zealand and the Auckland Numismatic Society
When the monarch is being advised by his ministers in relation to the affairs of Country A - it means that he is being advised as King of Country A as opposed to his role as King of Country B & so on.
For example, when King Charles III is being advised by his ministers in Grenada - it is in relation to his position as King of Grenada as opposed to his role as King of Australia & so on.
The same thing applied to King George VI being advised by Irish ministers - being part of his role as King of Ireland, especially in relation to the King's foreign relations powers - which was NOT within the power of the President until 18 April 1949, when the Republic of Ireland Act came into effect.
The reference to the King under the Irish legislation after the abdication of King Edward VIII is directly referring to King George VI without directly stating that he was King of Ireland.
Aidan.
You are right that the legislation refers to George VI without directly stating that he was King of Ireland. That's because he wasn't. It does refer to the other countries of which he was king, so this was a clear and deliberate omission.
King George VI was King of Ireland, but not King in Ireland, which is why the External Relations Act directly referred to the King himself without actually naming him. The word ‘King’ was enough to indicate who he was in relation to the Irish state.
Anyhow, the King had the external relations powers that was denied to Presidents Hyde & O'Kelly from 1938 to 1949.
The Presidents were merely local replacements for the Governor-General, albeit, not recognised outside Ireland itself.
Ireland was still a Dominion of the British Commonwealth.
King George VI was King of Ireland, but not King in Ireland.
Where does it say that? We can't just invent titles.
Probably given the long and protracted ugly war of Independence between 1916 and 1922, the British like the Irish were war weary and not interested in putting the Jackboot into Ireland again as Ireland would rebel.
De facto independence occurred in Feb 1922 when the IRA and British army stopped fighting and then an internal Civil war between Pro treaty and anti Treaty factions in the IRA opened. The ones who wanted to sign a Treaty with Britain making them a self governing Dominion rather than a completely independent nation that had severed every link possible with the UK. This war dragged on into 1923 and the Pro Treaty faction won. This was also when Michael Collins died, and things were quite unstable. The new nation was very poor and dominated by the Catholic Church. Until November 1922, it was merely the Transistional Government of the Irish Free State.
Stamp and coin catalogues of 1924 to 1938, only refer to it as the Irish Free State, never Ireland until 1937 (It took a while for things to “filtrate” and Gel).
Plus the Brits were sick of wars, the Irish campaign got worse in 1919 with the Black and Tan guerilla movements which saw atrocities on both sides. Add to this British mopping up after WW1, some in Russia fighting Bolsheviks, and indepedence struggles erupting in India and now Malta, so its likely the Brits said in 1922, yes the King is still King of Ireland, but we won't push the point too hard.
After early 1922, the war of independence became a civil internal war and then there was scrapping over Ulster which elected to remain British, but at an early stage in 1922, it was thought it would join the rest of Ireland (As the 1922 Map definitive shows the Unified country), by the time it came out in December 1922, the north had decided to remain under the United Kingdom.
1923 to 1937 was the long silence between the UK and Ireland and yet in the background the UK helped the new nation out in many ways with infrastructure, coin and stamp production and other matters. The British could have been real pricks and banned the Irish from using English as an official language, but they did not and despite the Gaelic movement and its status, the bulk of Irish speak English and English only. Gaelic is only really spoken in a token sense like Te Reo in New Zealand and mostly in the isolated far west of the country (Gaeltacht).
Relations warmed up considerably from the 1960s onwards and in most sense, both nations are very friendly now, however issues remain over Northern Ireland (Religious sectarianism, ethno nationalism etc) and being in and out of the European Union, Ireland is very much EU and uses the Euro, UK is not. There is also some sour grapes as the English saw the Irish as inferior, poor stupid potato farmers for centuries and now Ireland is running rings around the UK. The average income in Ireland is 70% higher than the UK, and its much more stable and prosperous (Even recent immigrant issues have not done much damage).
Apologies if I sound based, my latest DNA results showed I actually had more English than Irish in me, yet I remain firmly and proudly pro Irish and very Catholic.
I love coins. Especially silver, gold and anything really old.
Member of the Royal Numismatic Society of New Zealand and the Auckland Numismatic Society
King George VI's title was the same in Ireland as it was everywhere else in the British Empire & the British Commonwealth.
Aidan.
What was that title? Remember, you're claiming George VI was Ireland's head of state. You must be able to provide some evidence of that. The Irish legislation doesn't give any.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Also the last Lord Lieutenant of Ireland finished up in December 1922.
Breaking a 750 year long chain stretching back to Strongbow.
I love coins. Especially silver, gold and anything really old.
Member of the Royal Numismatic Society of New Zealand and the Auckland Numismatic Society
The constitution came into effect on 29 December 1937 [ https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html ]. No Currency Commission Irish Free State banknote is dated after this day, despite some 1937 banknotes being printed in 1938 [Central Bank of Ireland Archives]. Note, back dating of notes was often done on Irish notes.
The constitution came into effect on 29 December 1937 [ https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html ]. No Currency Commission Irish Free State banknote is dated after this day, despite some 1937 banknotes being printed in 1938 [Central Bank of Ireland Archives]. Note, back dating of notes was often done on Irish notes.
The Republic was not created in 1937, as Ireland was still a member of the British Commonwealth right up until 1949, when the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 came into effect.
Between 29 December 1937 & 17 April 1949, Ireland was actually an independent Dominion with 2 heads of state from 1938, when Douglas Hyde became the first President of Ireland, as the King was regarded as Ireland's external head of state in the External Relations Act,1936. The President was the internationally unrecognised internal head of state.
Ireland was governed internally as a republic, but being a member of the British Commonwealth, it was also a Dominion, as King George VI was Ireland's King.
