Greetings, the reason for my request is to be able to add Qianlong as a Ruling authority, this is because during the "invasion of Đại Việt", specifically the Tonkin area) a coin was issued in Qianlong's name. This would complete the information for that piece. I attach the relevant sources.
The Toda catalogue mentions “Cast in Yunnan for the payment of the Chinese troops.”
As it's minted in China, under the authority of a Chinese Emperor (Gao Zong / Qian Long era), to pay Chinese people, I would also tend to consider the issuer as the Empire of China. So there is no need to add Qianlong to the issuer Empire of Vietnam.
I disagree it's a token though. I understand it's a regular coin (even if produced in a specific context of war, but that's the case for many ancient and medieval coins) and I assume it circulated alongside other cash coins in China and in Vietnam.
- Comment: Cast in Yunnan for the payment of the Chinese troops, when Lê Chiêu Thống, emperor of Đại Việt, appealed to the Qing dynasty of China for assistance against the Tây Sơn rebels.
I'll ask the referee for Vietnam to review.
Status changed to Started(Compendium, 10 Oct 2023, 22:53)
The round cash coins with chinese characters and a square hole in the middle (ancient cash coins) are produced and used in 4 countries: China, Vietnam, Korea and Japan in the past (4 countries use the same writing style).
Many coins have the same Chinese character (Chinese king's name) or King's name however they were produced in different countries. You must distinguish and classify the style of writing on the coins to know where the coins were produced.
To research about Vietnamese ancient cash coins, you need to read the following 2 books: First step in research: read books written in English;
When you have basic knowledge: read the book written in Japanese (1 set has 3 books).
Besides reading books, you can see more pictures of coins on the following website:
I believe it's clear now that the coins were produced in Yunnan, China, to pay the Chinese troops sent by Emperor Qianlong to help Lê Chiêu Thống against the Tây Sơn.
There are probably two ways to consider this coin:
It's a coin issued under the authority of Lê Chiêu Thống (as indicated by the “Vietnamese style”), with the name of Qianlong (Càn Long) as a sign of submission to the emperor of China
It's a coin issued under the authority of Qianlong to pay his troops (the “Vietnamese style” might be explained by the geographical proximity of Yunnan with Annam)
I don't think any of the mentioned sources can help deciding.
It seems that the coins is mostly described in books about Annam coins (because of the link with Annam history? because it was mostly found in Vietnam? because they follow the initial choice of the Today catalogue?), so I would be in favour that Numista keeps it with issuer “Empire of Vietnam”. In that case, I would also keep the ruling authority as “Lê Chiêu Thống”, considering that the mention of Qianlong (Càn Long) is just a sign that he seeks submission to the Empire of China.
Status changed to Rejected(Xavier, 11 Oct 2023, 09:56)
Qianlong Tongbao/An Nam cash coin, why the Chinese do not put it in the list of Chinese ancient cash coins ?
The writing/character used on the Ancient Cash Coins is ancient Chinese character, which is hardly used today because it is too difficult. In fact, people who study Ancient Cash Coin s in Vietnam, China, Japan and Korea are all very good at Chinese calligraphy.
With the geographical and commercial of Vietnam, Ancient Cash Coins from China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam are all used/circulated normally in Vietnam. Vietnam and China have many Ancient Cash Coins with the same names. To distinguish and classify them, we must rely on the style/shape of writing/character and style/shape outer, inner rims of the cash coin.
A lot of ancient cash coin collectors in Vietnam, China, Japan and Korea are not very interested in Toda's books because they have too many errors and mistakes. That was because Toda's book did not know Chinese calligraphy and he had to use technical drawing methods to write Chinese characters on the cash coins.
The book for Vietnamese ancient cash coins used by specialized collectors is a book published by Japanese researchers. Besides, it must be compared with books on Chinese ancient cash coins issued by the Chinese researchers.
Here, I recommend using Allan Barker’s book for Vietnamese ancient cash coins in Numista Forum because: The books in English written by Western researchers; The book has many real cash coin; The book has a scientific/logical presentation.
There are 4 cash coins with Chinese names, which one is from Vietnam, which one is from China. Your opinion ?
The round cash coins with chinese characters and a square hole in the middle (ancient cash coins) are produced and used in 4 countries: China, Vietnam, Korea and Japan in the past (4 countries use the same writing style).
Many coins have the same Chinese character (Chinese king's name) or King's name however they were produced in different countries. You must distinguish and classify the style of writing on the coins to know where the coins were produced.
To research about Vietnamese ancient cash coins, you need to read the following 2 books: First step in research: read books written in English;
When you have basic knowledge: read the book written in Japanese (1 set has 3 books).
Besides reading books, you can see more pictures of coins on the following website:
There is no definitive list of acceptable sources. As long as the source you provide has sufficient authority in regards to the nature of the requested change, it is acceptable.
