Lower Canada miss use of reference field [solved]

Hello,

I made CR to remove the word Various from reference field with comments “Words not allow in catalogue reference field”.

It was rejected with the comment:

“Where exactly did you read this in the guidelines ? I don't see it.”

So here we are.

I speak few words of french and Spanish and can tell you that the word Various don't exist neither in French neither in Spanish, again the language independant field should stay language independant in order to avoid to mess up the 2 others Numista site, Numista.fr and Numista.es …

Indomini16

Hello,

 

I made CR to remove the word Various from reference field with comments “Words not allow in catalogue reference field”.

It was rejected with the comment:

“Where exactly did you read this in the guidelines ? I don't see it.”

 

So here we are.

 

I speak few words of french and Spanish and can tell you that the word Various don't exist neither in French neither in Spanish, again the language independant field should stay language independant in order to avoid to mess up the 2 others Numista site, Numista.fr and Numista.es …

It's funny to see how you left out an important part of my answer:

Hello again,

Words not allow in catalogue reference field.

Where exactly did you read this in the guidelines ? I don't see it.

I agree it's not the ideal way of doing things but the previous referees decided to accept it. Maybe they had an agreement on this with the Numista team ?!? I'm not enclined to undo what the previous referees did if it's not an obvious error.

Best regards,

Whats carious is supposed to mean?

According to guidelines, a variant from a reference number should have this format “123 var.” for instance

Various - more than one.

rsirian1

Various - more than one.

Then all codes should be listed, or just the post relevant per our guidelines

Var. Stand vor variant and not for various

apuking

Var. Stand vor variant and not for various

+1

Various brings no value to this field, we need to put the most relevant code number

I looked for history of some entries and actual reference numbers were there, until they were replaced by “various” in 2016 for reason I cant understand.

Please Quebecois can you handle it?

Québécois

It's funny to see how you left out an important part of my answer:

 

Hello again,

Words not allow in catalogue reference field.

Where exactly did you read this in the guidelines ? I don't see it.

I agree it's not the ideal way of doing things but the previous referees decided to accept it. Maybe they had an agreement on this with the Numista team ?!? I'm not enclined to undo what the previous referees did if it's not an obvious error.

Best regards,

I didn’t mentioned all your message because I think it didn’t give a good image of your work as referee, but ok if you want to show it, it’s your decision.

Referee should know more about guideline than me a simple user. Rejecting my requests that goes against guideline with the comment, it was done before me so even if it goes again guidelines I will reject your valid request, sounds wrong to me. But you are the referee so I am oblidge to rely on your decision even if I don’t agree.

Now if the job of refereed consist in making contributor feel that guidelines are useless I know why I keep myself a simple contributor.

Indomini16

I didn’t mentioned all your message because I think it didn’t give a good image of your work as referee but ok if you want to show it, it’s your decision.

Referee should know more about guideline than me a simple user. Rejecting my requests that goes against guideline with the comment, it was done before me so even if it goes again guidelines I will reject your valid request sounds wrong to me but you are the referee so I am oblidge to rely on your decisio even if I don’t agree.

Now if the job of referee consist in making contributor feel that guidelines are useless I know why I keep myself a simple contributor.

Please lets all keep respect for everyone's work. Everything can be discussed without personal accusations 

Compendium

Please lets all keep respect for everyone's work. Everything can be discussed without personal accusations 

I agree with you comment to keep respect for EVERYONE’S work.

I don’t feel like I am doing personal accusation, I just answered this comments:

It's funny to see how you left out an important part of my answer:

Now if you feels that my messages goes against rules feel free to moderate it.

Without wanting to open a discussion I feel like users should keep quiet and referees can speak the way they want, in French we say “Deux poids, 2 mesures”

Indomini16

 

Without wanting to open a discussion I feel like users should keep quiet and referees can speak the way they want, in French we say “Deux poids, 2 mesures”

I dont feel the same: you did well to launch this thread, it was a good opportunity to remind rules around this field. Challenges and disagreements should not lead us to point fingers on each other :-)

I asked here Quebecois to fix thiese “various” fields, I'm trusting him

Compendium

you did well to launch this thread

Sorry, but this time I don't feel the same ;-)

As I am very stubborn, I did the effort to do this thread, but a newbie will not I swear, will he collaborate twice if his legit edits are rejected?

If a user submits a CR with reference to guideline, the first is to send a PM to the user and keep the CR in pending and not start with:

So I bring it here, but it should have been kept in PM.

I did one or 2 catalogue edits over the past years and what shocked me ultimately is that most of my CR in one region of the world are getting rejected systematically, even when I am right it's rejected with this message:

Two weeks after the page is still there, but the info requested not, does it support the user experience in the way we expect?

I am not pointing the finger at one referee in particular, as Québécois is just reproducing what he saw from others referees. I just feel like ultimately, referee can be rude to users and that's fine. But as you seems to think the problem is coming from me, ok you may be right :-)

No hard feeling, please just appeal those rejections :-)

Do not make appeals, i'll create myself new change requests to put actual numbers. I didnt realized you just suggested to delete them which would not have been great

Compendium I didnt realized you just suggested to delete them which would not have been great

It’s partly true:

I asked for deletion when it was not obvious to me what number to put.

FYI,

This CR was the only one with reference numbers and it was not rejected, it's still pending. The others were rejected because they were, in my views, not proposing an improvment by just suppressing an info that might be usefull to someone (even if the info wasn't according to the guidelines or best practice like I mentionned in my PM).

Dear fellow collectionner, you seem to be such an knowledgeable and experience person, why don't you become the referee for Canada this summer ? I would appreciate the time off. Maybe you would prefer another Issuer/Country ? I would like to see you manage all these different CR, personals opinions, egos etc. I would be curious of what would be your feelings about the referee work at the end of the summer. Referees are just normal members like you and me that decided to help fixing things to the best of their knowledge.

To all reading this, just volunteer to do the referee job for a little while, it won't be perfect I'm sure… as you can see my results, but at least I try. Numista is not expecting perfection anyway, we are a collaborating site.

Best retards,

P.S.

1. I wasn't rude to you in any way, Referees are not rude because they reject a CR. They usually have a good reason. Members have to understand that a CR rejection is not a personnal insult.
2.  I'm not the referee who rejected your Duplicates CR in the past, you seem to be mixing events in that message. 

Québécois

FYI,

 

This CR was the only one with reference numbers and it was not rejected, it's still pending. The others were rejected because they were, in my views, not proposing an improvment by just suppressing an info that might be usefull to someone (even if the info wasn't according to the guidelines).

 

Dear fellow collectionner, you seem to be such an knowledgeable and experience person, why don't you become the referee for Canada this summer ? I would appreciate the time off. Maybe you would prefer another Issuer/Country ? I would like to see you manage all these different CR, personals opinions, egos etc…!

 

Just volunteer to do the referee job for a little while, it won't be perfect I'm sure as you can see my results but at least I try. Numista is not expecting perfection anyway, we are a collaborating site.

 

Best retards,

 

P.S. I wasn't rude to you in any way, Referees are not rude because they reject a CR. They usually have a good reason. Members have to begin not to take a rejection as a personnal insult. I'm not the referee who rejected your Duplicates CR in the past, you seem to be mixing events in that message. 

I will think twice about your offer to become referee as I have no experience on this domain.

I don’t think you were rude because you rejected my CR, I just think you need to dominate guideline more than I do, so when you reject something that goes in the sense of guideline I just don’t understand.

Indomini16

 

I will think twice about your offer to become referee as I have no experience on this domain.

I don’t think you were rude because you rejected my CR, I just think you need to dominate guideline more than I do, so when you reject something that goes in the sense of guideline I just don’t understand.

Do you really think any one of us referee had experience before we accepted ? No, we all learn as we go.

The guidelines are not so easy to master, there are grey zones, and as many say, they are just that “Guidelines”. I don't support this affirmation but that's another topic. 😉

And I fully understand your point, I had the same discussion about Sjoelund documentation the last few weeks that don't respect the Guidelines. Every one was on my back to keep these Images/Documentations, even if they create problems for the future, because his documentation are “better then nothing” as he put it himself. Having a word like VARIOUS in the reference field is exactly the same case to me, it's not suitable but it might be usefull to someone. Until we can replace it with good and reliable info, it's seem to be common usage on Numista to tolerate unsuitable, not according to guidelines, unproperly formatted info. Like I was pointing out, we can't easily undo what was there for 7 years but we have to start rejecting new stuff not according to the new guidelines of Numista. This is why I can assure you that if anyone submit a CR with the word VARIOUS for a new Canadian reference entry, they will see their CR rejected in a blink of an eye. 😉

It seems the real issue with the affected coins is that “various” is not "language independent" which “messes” up the French and Spanish sites.  So….if you don't know the reference numbers to use but still want to show there are various Breton and Withers numbers why not change “various” to something that is language independent like “>1”?

rsirian1

It seems the real issue with the affected coins is that “various” is not "language independent" which “messes” up the French and Spanish sites.  So….if you don't know the reference numbers to use but still want to show there are various Breton and Withers numbers why not change “various” to something that is language independent like “>1”?

It's an idea but not ideal. What if a beginner starts to be using for “>1” as a reference number ? 😊

The best way to solve this is to find the reference numbers and replace the VARIOUS with these numbers. This is under way but will required a bit more time an efforts as I want good and reliable info before making the change.

Québécois

 

What if a beginner starts to be using for “>1” as a reference number ? 😊

 

“they will see their CR rejected in a blink of an eye.” 😉

I agree, reference numbers are best. It didn't sound like that was your plan though.

Referees are normal members with more time on their hands and a big desire to contribute. That's all. 😉

We have our own projects/interests or things we wish to see done/corrected. Sometimes we want to focus on what in more interesting to us. Mainly, the referee job is to straighten/complete what was done before you were appointed.

When someone submit a CR that involve more changes to more coins of the catalog it becomes a project not a simple CR anymore. Sometimes the referees has to priotitize those requests depending on multiple factors. Available time, interest and value added to the catalog are factors in the decision of a referee to act or not on these CR's.

It's not allways an easy task to sort those requests, prioritize them and decide what to do with the initial request that might create a storm if you accept or reject this one change… like in this case for just a little reference number field with a “Various” entry in it. One of the referees gold is to have an homogeneious catalag as possible. It's not allways simple or easy to achieve that.

Québécois

 

And I fully understand your point, I had the same discussion about Sjoelund documentation the last few weeks that don't respect the Guidelines. Every one was on my back to keep these Images/Documentations, even if they create problems for the future, because his documentation are “better then nothing” as he put it himself.

Not only I said it, somebody higher than you agreed to my argument. 

Sjoelund

Québécois

 

And I fully understand your point, I had the same discussion about Sjoelund documentation the last few weeks that don't respect the Guidelines. Every one was on my back to keep these Images/Documentations, even if they create problems for the future, because his documentation are “better then nothing” as he put it himself.

Not only I said it, somebody higher than you agreed to my argument. 

Quand même l'auteur qualifie son travail de “mieux que rien”, ça en dit long sur la qualité de celui-ci. C'est ta manière de viser l'excellence ? 

C'est bien beau être aveuglé au point de ne pas comprendre le bon sens mais il faudrait peut-être en guérir un jour.

Et je te signale que c'est un site collaboratif, il n'y a personne de meilleur qu'un autre. Le travail des autres est aussi important que le tien même si tu penses le contraire. Xavier me dit que tu refuses de te plier aux exigences du site et de ses directives. En clair, ça ne veut pas dire qu'il adhère à tes arguments, ça veut seulement dire qu'il tolère tes contributions passées. Qui dit la vérité ? Toi ou lui ?

J'espère que tes prochaines contributions seront refusées par d'autres référents. Qu'on te demande de les éditer aux normes du site si elles ne respectent pas les directives… comme pour n'importe quelle contribution de n'importe quel membre qui ne respecterait pas les directives. Xavier peut bien lui tolérer ton attitude mais ce sont les référents qui devront travailler plus fort parce que tu refuses de respecter les directives.

De mon côté, j'ai commencé le travail et remplacé/supprimé quelques unes des documentations qui posaient problèmes, les autres suivront bientôt et j'espère terminer durant l'été de nettoyer ma partie du catalogue de ces images que l'on ne peut pas faire évoluer. 😀

C'est une surcharge de travail de convertir au nouveau format ce type de documentation existante, veuillez vous attendre à des délais supplémentaires pour toutes les autres demandes et correctifs. Mon temps disponible sera presque entièrement consacré à corriger cette situation pendant l'été (peut-être même au-delà). Désolé pour les autres demandes, elles seront acceptées au compte gouttes.

Bonnes vacances d'été à ceux qui en prendront.