Irish has a very complex grammar with plural forms that look quite unusual compared to other Indo-European languages. I'm not an Irish speaker but, as far as I know, these are the correct forms in Irish. We have been promised that there will soon be separate fields for each coin and banknote where the English and French names of the denominations can be entered if such forms exist, leaving the current field to record the denomination in the local language. There is a need for some consistency in Ireland (in particular, applying the Irish names to the decimal coins) but we're probably best waiting for the new fields to be available and then sort everything out at once.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
IWe have been promised that there will soon be separate fields for each coin and banknote where the English and French names of the denominations can be entered if such forms exist, leaving the current field to record the denomination in the local language.
It is not what we promissed :-)
We promissed in the future the addition of a new field “denomination in local language”, as existing fields should be used for english and french languages only, not local.
IWe have been promised that there will soon be separate fields for each coin and banknote where the English and French names of the denominations can be entered if such forms exist, leaving the current field to record the denomination in the local language.
It is not what we promissed :-)
We promissed in the future the addition of a new field “denomination in local language”, as existing fields should be used for english and french languages only, not local.
That is not how it was communicated. If that is your plan, then the plan needs to change. The real name is the local name. The translations into foreign languages must be secondary. Removing the real names at this stage would be a clear act of vandalism, considering the work that has gone into getting them right.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Do not change anything for now, we'll sort out the cases when new setting is created. But FYI this field is misused only in few parts of the Numista catalogue; it makes our work harder to let personal points of view change the rules in some parts, instead of following guidelines ;-)
Do not change anything for now, we'll sort out the cases when new setting is created. But FYI this field is misused only in few parts of the Numista catalogue; it makes our work harder to let personal points of view change the rules in some parts, instead of following guidelines ;-)
Accuracy isn't a point of view. If the guidelines promote inaccuracy, they must be ignored. Characterizing giving the correct name to a coin or note as “misuse” does not help develop this catalogue in the right direction.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
It makes no sense to promote ignoring guidelines. It is what leads to this situation where irish coins are sometimes pennies and sometimes local spelling of pennies. More work anyway to sort out fields when we create new one, that we'd have if guidelines were respected from the start, it is simply obvious ;-)
Hi, just out of simple curiosity. It has been discussed on several occasions that the face value of coins and banknotes will be written in the local language and in English (or French or Spanish). What will it be, if it is already decided, the format? Will it be written in both languages in the same title?
In any case, I think it would be correct to give more prominence to the name in the local language.
Coin referee for: Andorra, Equatorial Guinea, Marshall Islands, Moldova, Liberia and Spain
Banknote referee for: Andorra, Equatorial Guinea and Spain
Can't agree that this is surely the answer but it should be one of the display options. I would propose four title fields (we already have three, so this isn't a big change). These would be local, English, French and Spanish. Users can then choose which to have as their primary display. If the field for your chosen language is blank, the local field is displayed. The same goes for ruling authorities, particularly monarchs. Most of our coins and notes have the local name at present (the biggest exception to this being the wén currently titled “cash”), so it won't change all that much. I'd advise caution with the dropdown list, though, as we'll need many varities of denomination names to cover all uses. As an example, we'll need pfennig, pfenning and pfennige just for Bavaria. If someone is prepared to compile a list and respond promptly to requests for new names, fine, but it will be a lot of work.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
The real name is the local name. The translations into foreign languages must be secondary. Removing the real names at this stage would be a clear act of vandalism, considering the work that has gone into getting them right.
Agree. Correct real names should be kept on the headline entry.
Compendium
…following guidelines ;-)
Guidelines are, guidelines, not requirements. If the guidelines are to be requirements, they should be called requirements, imho. If they are not requirements, then there should be leeway in guideline compliance in order to promote accuracy and general wellbeing.
I think they should be titled in English, as English is also the most commonly spoken language in Ireland anyway.
Aidan.
When it comes to the notes, both languages appeared and we use both in the titles. For the coins, only Irish was used, so it makes sense to only use that in the titles.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
In examples above, the currency do not appear right?
No.
You should look at the coins. On the first of the three coins the denomination is written quite clearly: Leath Reul.
The denomination is inscribed in words on most of the modern Irish coins, always in Irish.
For consistency, the currency on Irish coins should be in Irish, as the Irish language comes first on modern Irish currency, making it the dominant language of the two.
On series B banknotes the face of the notes in entirely in Irish, with English on the reverse.
I was talking about the Penny spelling, didnt see it on the examples?
But even if they were here, local language is not the same as english denomination. With this logic we would have cyrillic or chinese characters in titles everywhere those script are used as local language
It doesn't seem right to have only English titles for the decimal coins of Pounds & Pence, but Irish language only titles for the 1928 to 1968/69 pre-decimal coins.
Both sections should be in English only.
I would be surprised if someone came up with Irish language titles for the Irish Euro coins.
It doesn't seem right to have only English titles for the decimal coins of Pounds & Pence, but Irish language only titles for the 1928 to 1968/69 pre-decimal coins.
Both sections should be in English only.
I would be surprised if someone came up with Irish language titles for the Irish Euro coins.
Aidan.
I disagree. We should have the Irish names for the decimal denominations too. After all, the “p” can just as well stand for pingin as penny and the obverse only has Irish on it. As for the cent and euro, are other terms used in Irish?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
I was talking about the Penny spelling, didnt see it on the examples?
Exactly my point. You either didn't look at all the coins, and now you cite the one coin which does not contradict your argument - it doesn't support your argument either as it lists the denomination as 1p, which could either be 1 penny or 1 pingin. If you look at all of the decimal denominations, the £1 coin has the denomination spelt on it, 'Punt', in Irish.
As I said, the dominant language is Irish on the Irish currency post-1927.
Compendium
HiberniaNo.
You should look at the coins
But even if they were here, local language is not the same as english denomination. With this logic we would have cyrillic or chinese characters in titles everywhere those script are used as local language
No. You are using Romaji to derive English names where appropriate: Romainsed spellings of the Cyrillic or Chinese names, or whatever other language it is necessary for - an established practice when expressing non-roman alphabet languages in English spelling, also useful for Japanese - I once studied (fast) Japanese through Romaji, a relatively easy language when one doesn't have to learn to write it!
It doesn't seem right to have only English titles for the decimal coins of Pounds & Pence, but Irish language only titles for the 1928 to 1968/69 pre-decimal coins.
These should be in Irish also…
The £1 coin is the only denomination with the denomination spelt on it: 'Punt', in Irish.
And of course, 1p acn be either 1 penny or 1 pingin.
With access to the Central Bank Archives, I might be able to do a bit of research on this and investigate the background to the choice of the coin designs.
BCNumismatics
I would be surprised if someone came up with Irish language titles for the Irish Euro coins.
'Éire' appears on the Irish Euro coins.
The Euro is not really a good comparison - Euro Cent is the same in all languages.
HiberniaYou are using Romaji to derive English names where appropriate: Romainsed spellings of the Cyrillic or Chinese names, or whatever other language it is necessary for - an established practice when expressing non-roman alphabet languages in English spelling
I'm pretty sure what you consider as “established” could be challenged by some russian or chinese collectors as something completely wrong in terms of respecting whats written on the coin… hence our effort to rationalize consistently the usage of english forms in english Numista, to avoid such infinite debates about what is “established” or not. Its a choice.
HiberniaYou are using Romaji to derive English names where appropriate: Romainsed spellings of the Cyrillic or Chinese names, or whatever other language it is necessary for - an established practice when expressing non-roman alphabet languages in English spelling
I'm pretty sure what you consider as “established” could be challenged by some russian or chinese collectors as something completely wrong in terms of respecting whats written on the coin… hence our effort to rationalize consistently the usage of english forms in english Numista, to avoid such infinite debates about what is “established” or not. Its a choice.
You are either in favour of using Romanised forms or you are not. If you believe that Romanised versions of the languages could be “challenged” by native speakers as to their accuracy, why are you championing their usage on numista?
‘Established’ is that which is used in academic usage, in this case the learning of these languages by foreigners. I should have been more specific, my experience of established usage of Romanised alphabets has been in Japanese and to a much lesser degree Chinese, and neither of them in the context of numismatics.
It doesn't seem right to have only English titles for the decimal coins of Pounds & Pence, but Irish language only titles for the 1928 to 1968/69 pre-decimal coins.
These should be in Irish also…
The £1 coin is the only denomination with the denomination spelt on it: 'Punt', in Irish.
And of course, 1p acn be either 1 penny or 1 pingin.
With access to the Central Bank Archives, I might be able to do a bit of research on this and investigate the background to the choice of the coin designs.
BCNumismatics
I would be surprised if someone came up with Irish language titles for the Irish Euro coins.
'Éire' appears on the Irish Euro coins.
The Euro is not really a good comparison - Euro Cent is the same in all languages.
The name ‘Eire’ just means ‘Ireland’.
If we are going to have Irish-Gaelic names for both Pound currency coins from 1928 to 2000, then we should also have their names in English as well.
Both English & Irish-Gaelic ARE official languages in the Republic of Ireland - but English is the more commonly spoken language, especially in places like Dublin.
This entry is french only for now. Thousands of Numista entries are not yet properly edited in french or english, when they were created in one language only. Feel free to contribute! :-)
This entry is french only for now. Thousands of Numista entries are not yet properly edited in french or english, when they were created in one language only. Feel free to contribute! :-)
Are you really saying the “English title” field for this coin will read cent when it's introduced? Do you have any idea of the reputational damage such a move would cause Numista?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
I think we're really getting to a bit of a delicate point. The Numsta Catalog cannot be allowed depending on what decisions, that would really affect the quality and credibility.
You could understand a discussion about how to name the Irish coins, since two languages are used interchangeably, but from there to say that 1 Centime, 1 Centavo or 1 Céntimo has to be written in the title 1 Cent I think it goes against of any logic in a serious catalog of numismatics.
Coin referee for: Andorra, Equatorial Guinea, Marshall Islands, Moldova, Liberia and Spain
Banknote referee for: Andorra, Equatorial Guinea and Spain
I didnt said it should we written 1 Cent but 1 Centime (with a cap) and all the rest of the entry translated in english, as I find weird to link a french-only entry as example in this discussion.
I'm really tired by all agressivity you folks (always the same handful) are deploying in multiple threads, just repeating over and over how much you hate our guidelines and that only you are right and all others wrong as if we were just dumb and blind.
We already said local languages fields are on our roadmap, so I'll stop answering to your monologue and will just answer original question of this thread: titles for the entries linked should be Penny and not Gaelic form of Penny.
This entry is french only for now. Thousands of Numista entries are not yet properly edited in french or english, when they were created in one language only. Feel free to contribute! :-)
Are you really saying the “English title” field for this coin will read cent when it's introduced? Do you have any idea of the reputational damage such a move would cause Numista?
The word “centime” is a French word for the denomination, and also the English word for the denomination. I looked in several English dictionaries and they all had a “centime” as a unit of French coinage.
To answer original question and to close the thread, there is no need for a change now. All of this will be cleared with a new field for local language.
Catalogue administrator
Status changed to Rejected(Jarcek, 27 Jun 2023, 12:27)
