1 Sapèque or 2 Sapèque? [solved]

N#11331

N#3312

The Cochinchina coin has a title of “Sapèque” (no number), a value in word form of “2 Sapèque”, a value in number for consistent with 1 Sapèque, and a comment that says:

The KM catalog erroneously identifies this type as a 2 sapeque coin.  Consequently, many auction houses also call it 2 sapeque.

The two coins have the same Chinese lettering:

南安之 國法大
當
二

The lettering implies to me that there should be a “2” ("二") in the denomination, but 1⁄5 centime makes more sense than 2⁄5 centime. (Wikipedia says a cent was worth between 2 and 6 Sapèque depending on the era, but doesn't give specifics on the eras.)

Does anyone have any historical information on what actual denomination of the coin was? Any explanation for the Chinese lettering if the value is 1 Sapèque?

You're right, it's a mess :)

1 Sapeque = 2 Dongs

1 Dong = 1‰ Piastre

It seems that there are some coin sheets to correct on Numista …

That may have been my fault, “flying without a catalog.”  

I noticed that these auction houses all called the 1879 bronze coin of 2 grams a sapeque (not 2 sapeque):

CGB:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6217641

iNumis:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1805743

Monnaies d'Antan:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1437800

Maison Palombo: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5609903

Sincona:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1287572

and that both PCGS and NGC slabs call it a “1 S”

NGC:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=10196923

PCGS:  see the iNumis sale.

On the other hand, many sellers quoting a KM reference call it a 2 sapeque (Stack's sometimes but not always, Katz, some German houses).

I thought THAT was confusing (two catalogs callit it different denominations), and assumed the French houses and the slabbers were probably getting it correct, so I edited the title and added the comment.  But I don;t have Lecompte, and I can't read the script (but I guessed that the 2 could have referred to 2 dong).

If that was wrong, let's fix it .

See here page 118

legislative article :

… 

The sapeque or 1/500 of the piastre.

…

Sapeques can only be received by public finance organization of the colony in complete ligatures of one hundred sapeques worth 20 cents

….

Thank you for posting the references. I'll submit some change requests.

Should the translation of the lettering be “2 grams” not “2 Sapéque”?

If you want to “translate” it would be 2 cash, like the Chinese equivalents (wiktionary in French).

From Frenchlover's first post with the image of the coin, I think it says

en haut DUONG (vaut) =  at top DUONG (worth)

en bas NHI (deux) = at the bottom NHI (two) 

Perhaps translations of either “worth two” or “worth two (dong)” would work??

And again, sorry for my contributing to any confusion, but I think there was a time recently when several modification or creation requests for Indo-China / Cochin-China coins came up, and lacking a dedicated referee, I gave it my best shot (and also tried to improve on the confusion I saw… but maybe created more by accident).

What is a Sapeque? Yes it's feminine in French :)
It is the most common unit of account traditionally illustrated by a copper or bronze coin with a square hole in the middle. It is used for the most common transactions and has been imitated throughout Asia. The sapeque is so emblematic of currency in China that the character qian has come to designate what we French, by a semantic shift of the same nature, call “money”.
To facilitate their transport, the sapeques are joined together in ligature of one hundred or one thousand; in the latter case the ligature is called diao and is the equivalent of a tael. The figure of one thousand sapeques per ligature is theoretical because it can most often contain less to take into account local customs and/or commissions charged by money changers.
The French expression sapèque would come from the Malay sapaku meaning - strangely compared to the interpretation that we have given - a ligature of a thousand pieces, while the English cash would come from the Sanskrit karsha (on these etymological aspects we will consult the English dictionary -Indian Hobson-Jobson). The qian transcription was previously written ts'ien in French and ch'ien in English (the apostrophe being sometimes elided for simplification).
So much for China.

Now for Indochina, I also read this interesting comment:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=8746.0

The Chinese (Chữ-nôm) characters are probably more of decorative nature. The name An-Nam (安南) was also used after the colony was re-named into Indochina. The correct Vietnamese names would be: 南部 - Nam-Bộ (Cochinchine) and 東堂 - Đông Dương (Indochine).

Moreover the denomination is incomplete, the 當之二 means "with the value of 2/(something)". Since the sapèque was valued at a 500th piastre one might assume that the intended inscription was 當千之二 or "with the value of 2/1000".

So lettering of this coin is on three lines (not on two lines): 

法國大 (or reverse order?)

安南

當之二

It is also interesting to note that the coin has a weight of 2 grams, and the 1 Centime coin of 1885-1894 weighed 10 grams, the weight then deteriorated.

Anyway, on the legislative article shown above, it is clearly indicated One Sapeque = 1/500 Piastre

As quoted by Joe-breuille on the french forum, Sapeque trials for Cochinchina should be corrected as well [Value 1 Sapèque (0.002)]

Sapeque? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochinchina_piastre?fbclid=IwAR0-EFekQyPFgYOnSBCtRdBJQI45mN2ZOO3Vx9XYmxgOSENNKrGSrCEfsTc

be.hanoi

Sapeque? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochinchina_piastre?fbclid=IwAR0-EFekQyPFgYOnSBCtRdBJQI45mN2ZOO3Vx9XYmxgOSENNKrGSrCEfsTc

Based on the French legislative documents above the Wikipedia article is incorrect.

(I submitted change requests for all the coins and some are accepted.)

I agree.  

The Wikipedia article has two contradictory statements.

In one place, it says this:

1879: Copper Sapèque (¹⁄₅₀₀ Piastre),

And then just below it, in a table, it shows this:

2 Sapèque
(¹⁄₅₀₀ piastre)

So in this case, Wikipedia seems to give a lot of interesting history, but fails to help with the question we started with.

Now we have the same coin on the two sides of Numista with different face values:

N#3312

N#3312

Frenchlover's link of the legislative decree appears to make it clear:  the striking of 1 sapeque coins was authorized in 1879, not 2 sapeque coins (though there is the small issue of composition).

The Lecompte catalog calls the coin 1 sapeque (see post by ALM in this thread: https://fr.numista.com/forum/topic101246.html)

So, I think a decision needs to be made on whether:

- we ignore the wording of the legislation, and ignore Lecompte and call it 2 sapeque.

- we ignore KM and call it 1 sapeque.

I dont know the reputation of the Lecompte catalog, but we all know that KM has many mistakes.

And I think Numista does not look good if we leave this as-is.

tdziemia

Now we have the same coin on the two sides of Numista with different face values:

 

N#3312

N#3312

 

Frenchlover's link of the legislative decree appears to make it clear:  the striking of 1 sapeque coins was authorized in 1879, not 2 sapeque coins (though there is the small issue of composition).

The Lecompte catalog calls the coin 1 sapeque (see post by ALM in this thread: https://fr.numista.com/forum/topic101246.html)

 

So, I think a decision needs to be made on whether:

- we ignore the wording of the legislation, and ignore Lecompte and call it 2 sapeque.

- we ignore KM and call it 1 sapeque.

 

I dont know the reputation of the Lecompte catalog, but we all know that KM has many mistakes.

 

And I think Numista does not look googe  if we leave this as-is.

When I view your post from the English language forum there are two links to the same English language page, but when I edit I see you posted links to the English and French pages.

The title of the French page says “2" sapèques” but the Face value in word form is “1 sapèque”. Maybe the only change required is the title.

There are six pages that need to be fixed. I'd be willing to make the changes, but someone fluent in French would be better at reviewing the pages for consistency and composing the French change justification.

On a related topic, I just realized that the currency definition for French Cochinchina uses Centimes while the definition for French Indochina uses Cents. Since the legislation included above uses Cents the Centimes is incorrect. I requested a change for the French Cochinchina definition.

And the coin listings in Numista for both French Cochinchina and French Indochina use Centimes. I made a trial change on one coin to start the conversion process.