Alternative to PayPal in the US?

As a seller on a website based in the European Union I am looking for an alternative to PayPal for payments.

Wise(.com) is an excellent alternative in Australia, Canada and the UK, where they provide access to a local bank account.

In the US, Wise gives access to a bank account with ACH and Wire routing number. I have experienced that this option is expensive to buyers (at least that is what they claim) because they have PNC bank only.

Since I have no insight in US banking, I would like to ask if it is complicated or even expensive for US residents to make a bank transfer to a bank account with ACH and Wire routing number? And what does it mean when people have PNC bank only?

An ACH transaction costs $25 over here.

I have found that the US has a relatively primitive retail banking system.

I have been unable to find an alternative to pyapal for US buyers. One of the issues is that paypal is deeply embedded in the US buyer market.

Another issue is that paypal is perceived to favour the buyer over the seller in disputes, something which the buyers like to cling to. I have found this to not always be the case

In the old days before paypal or ebay we used money orders, which were an inexpensive means of US buyers sending payment. A cashier's check drawn on a European bank (whichever country you are banking in) would be another option for you to consider.

USPS international money orders are now US$49.65 , plus country specific fees! 

Hibernia

I have found that the US has a relatively primitive retail banking system.

I have been unable to find an alternative to pyapal for US buyers. One of the issues is that paypal is deeply embedded in the US buyer market.

Another issue is that paypal is perceived to favour the buyer over the seller in disputes, something which the buyers like to cling to. I have found this to not always be the case

 

In the old days before paypal or ebay we used money orders, which were an inexpensive means of US buyers sending payment. A cashier's check drawn on a European bank (whichever country you are banking in) would be another option for you to consider.

Many thanks for your detailed answer.

Besides cash concealed in a letter, money orders were quite common prior to PayPal, and they were accepted by banks here in Europe. If cashier's checks still exist here, of which I am not sure, they are for certain very expensive. Regular checks are no longer available for domestic use where I live.

PayPal has made a great job with their socalled “customer satisfaction warranty”, which they promoted when they were owned by eBay. To issue a warranty that they never had to pay for is simply a stroke of genious.

Would I be selling cheap random sweat shop crap, the PayPal customer satisfaction warranty would not be a problem, I would simply just send another one if the product was not delivered. But, I deal in collector's items - and most of the items are unique, even though they are not very expensive. PayPal demands “proof of delivery” - which is quite expensive, and no one wants to spend an extra €15 on a €5 item. So, for many years, until a short while ago, I chanced it and sent all items by regular mail, at regular mail shipping prices, and factored in the very few items that were never received. Until Covid-19 came along, and the rest is history.

Due to the times we are living in, the countries from where I accept orders have become a lot fewer. Most of them since I do not accept PayPal anymore, others because their economy is going down the drain (Argentina, Turkey, Russia etc.). In those countries people are used to find alternative routes. In the US people get offended if they can't pay with PayPal, which has become less attractive the last many years.

If I can't find an inexpensive alternative to PayPal, the option of not accepting orders from the US will become a reality.

What about Western Union?

Aidan.

I largely stopped selling to the US because of the paypal issue. I paypal once ebay stopped useing it.

I stopped using ebay when they stopped using paypal.

May I ask how many transactions you have had with people in the U.S.? Every one of them claimed to have PNC bank only?  I ask because PNC bank is a private banking institution based in Pennsylvania and they are free to charge whatever they like for domestic or international transactions. In addition, all U.S. banks are required to follow U.S. government laws regarding domestic and international transactions to prevent money laundering and tax evasion efforts. This is an expensive requirement that the banks must pass on to the consumer. “Primative”? Not at all. They must comply with the rules and make a profit just like you do when you sell your products.

harryg

May I ask how many transactions you have had with people in the U.S.? Every one of them claimed to have PNC bank only?  I ask because PNC bank is a private banking institution based in Pennsylvania and they are free to charge whatever they like for domestic or international transactions. In addition, all U.S. banks are required to follow U.S. government laws regarding domestic and international transactions to prevent money laundering and tax evasion efforts. This is an expensive requirement that the banks must pass on to the consumer. “Primative”? Not at all. They must comply with the rules and make a profit just like you do when you sell your products.

I have had many transactions with US customers. No, one of them have claimed to have had PNC bank only. Others have claimed different banks. But that is not the point.

The point is what I am able to offer and how that works with customers. It seems like ACH and Wire routing number is a relatively expensive solution when paying smaller amounts - when people are used to zero percent with PayPal. What I am interested in is finding a universal banking solution that works both for my customers and for me.

Banks in the European Union are required to follow EU laws regarding domestic and international transactions to prevent money laundering and tax evasion efforts. They are also required to follow the rules of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area , which means there are no fees on regular bank transfers within the counries of the SEPA. The European banks must comply with the rules and make profit just like everybody else, but on other banking products than regular bank transfers.

The key word is SEPA. Within the group using the Euro.. What are the fees outside the group using a myriad of other currencies?

harryg

The key word is SEPA. Within the group using the Euro.. What are the fees outside the group using a myriad of other currencies?

The key word is that I have a US bank account via the Wise(.com) website. What I want to achieve is to find a vendor in the US that offers domestic bank transfers at a low rate. Let's stick to that.

Lets stick to the fact that you want everybody to use Wise because you chose not to use Paypal to make things easy and cheap for you to sell? Everybody should accommodate you? That is your choice. Dont get snarky and don't ask for advice about selling and payments on a Swap site. You are a perfect example of why profiteers are not welcome here. Twit.

harryg

Lets stick to the fact that you want everybody to use Wise because you chose not to use Paypal to make things easy and cheap for you to sell? Everybody should accommodate you? That is your choice. Dont get snarky and don't ask for advice about selling and payments on a Swap site. You are a perfect example of why profiteers are not welcome here. Twit.

There is no intent from my side on being snarky, so I am sorry if you have gotten that impression.

The message that I wanted to convey was, that we should stay on topic. Perhaps I should have been more elaborate.

Why can't I ask for advice about payments in general terms on this forum? Does the rules say so?

harryg

Twit.

Unnecessarily unpleasant, and unbecoming from a member with so many posts and years on this forum.

You should know how to behave in a civil manner. 

I don't see anything wrong with someone on this forum asking for advice on an alternative to PayPal in the US.

I think that a seller has a right to decide what means of payment they accept, just as a buyer has the right to not buy if they do not wish to use those means of payment.

@Hapertas
I sold an item recently to US buyer who paid via Wise. He had no issue at all using it.

Hibernia

 

@Hapertas
I sold an item recently to US buyer who paid via Wise. He had no issue at all using it.

Well, I know that it's not an issue for most US buyers.

The issue I have with some websites in the EU is, that they specifically disallow any other digital payment solution than PayPal, their own service (if they have one) and bank transfers - without specifying which kind of bank transfers.

A way out of this is to offer an inexpensive bank transfer solution outside the SEPA-area, which is not a problem except for the US. In other words, I am not allowed to directly promote Wise or any other alternative digital solution, but if the customer contacts me and asks why I do not offer PayPal - then I can explain that I do have a bank account in the US.

I used Crypto payment for the deals with US citizens

that won't ever be me. I don't really know what crypto is…or want to know…

Hibernia

harryg

.

 

 

I think that a seller has a right to decide what means of payment they accept, just as a buyer has the right to not buy if they do not wish to use those means of payment.

 

@Hapertas
I sold an item recently to US buyer who paid via Wise. He had no issue at all using it.

Unbecoming behavior? As a referee, you of all people should be familiar with the rules. Both you and the OP openly flaunt the fact that you sell coins and then you defend and advise others that do the same on how to receive payments to maximize profits?  I find that unbecoming. I find this whole subject unbecoming, especially coming from a referee who should know better.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic122477.htm

Please become more familiar with #11

https://en.numista.com/help/forum-policy-77.html

As disappointing as it may be, but I do not have any coins (or banknotes) for sale. I trimmed down my collection a long time ago.

harryg

Lets stick to the fact that you want everybody to use Wise because you chose not to use Paypal to make things easy and cheap for you to sell? Everybody should accommodate you? That is your choice. Dont get snarky and don't ask for advice about selling and payments on a Swap site. You are a perfect example of why profiteers are not welcome here. Twit.

@harryg
I am not violating rule 11. Perhaps you ought to read it more carefully than you have done.

I do not sell coins, have never done so and never will. I did not indicate what it was that I had sold to someone on the US. As it happens, it was not a numismatic item.

In my opinion your usage of the word 'Twit' in reference to the OP violates Rule 1. You should apologise to the OP for using it. 
I note that you censored this bit out of your post in your quote of my post in your response. Perhaps you regret using the word now. I see no reason why you have to be so unpleasant and angry in your post.

This current topic is called 'Alternative to PayPal in the US?' - it is a discussion topic about its subject. None of the contributors to this topic are attempting to sell anything. They are discussing payment systems.

You appear to have become offended and angry at the notion that people do not agree with your point of view on the usage of paypal. And you are now angry at me because I called you out on your usage of the word 'Twit' in reference to the OP. 

We should all be able to learn to get along without being rude and nasty.

Your first link to a topic leads to a page not found error, the final l is clipped. I believe this is the topic you are linking to: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic122477.html

Again, no one in this topic is attempting to sell anything. If you think they are, you should quote the relevant statements.

Anyway, we are well off topic at this stage.

I have not used it myself but Zelle is a very popular alternative to paypal. Many banks have come together to create it to combat paypal. I believe its free. 

You could only try for a private solution similar to PayPal like Apple pay or Zelle etc., if you use a legitimate bank where, by the nature of things, you will always have many many steps between that stack up fees resulting in this 30-40 dollar per transaction. 

HERE is a video I have seen per chance today containing the roots of this topic and explained relatively simple and entertaining.

Idolenz

You could only try for a private solution similar to PayPal like Apple pay or Zelle etc., if you use a legitimate bank where, by the nature of things, you will always have many many steps between that stack up fees resulting in this 30-40 dollar per transaction. 

HERE is a video I have seen per chance today containing the roots of this topic and explained relatively simple and entertaining.

What I find most interesting in this video can be found at 14:08 - https://youtu.be/8xzINLykprA?t=848

If I understand this correctly, the domestic system for bank transfers in the US, the ACH Network, was made possible by legislation in 1978. 

And since then the fees for bank transfers within this system has not diminished, even though an electronic bank transfer does not have to be sent physically via the mail as money orders has to (unless they actually do so, which would be quite backwards).

“Aha, that is why I have to pay over $25 for a bank transfer in the ACH Network!”

An anecdote comes to mind. There was one bank where I was a customer (in Denmark, actually), they had different fees for bank transfers within the SEPA system. Since Denmark is a part of the SEPA system, but has kroner as currency, they could legally get away with this, since the free bank transfers within the SEPA system are (officially) for bank transfers in euro.

Anyway, the bank had three different fees for bank transfers in their online internet bank:

100 DKK and the bank transfer would take three working days

200 DKK and the bank transfer would take two working days

300 DKK and the bank transfer was instantly transferred.

Don't tell me that bank transfers have different paces in a fully digital world.

The very first thing I did was to find another bank that could offer me an instant transfer for 100 DKK.

redsmithstudios

I have not used it myself but Zelle is a very popular alternative to paypal. Many banks have come together to create it to combat paypal. I believe its free. 

It seems a US phone number is needed to download the app.

Hapertas

redsmithstudios

I have not used it myself but Zelle is a very popular alternative to paypal. Many banks have come together to create it to combat paypal. I believe its free. 

It seems a US phone number is needed to download the app.

 

 

From a look at its website, it appears that zelle is US only - and keen to remain so if they require a US number - a pity as it looks like a very good solution, especially with no fees.