Fourth version of Numista for local languages

I'd like to suggest the idea to launch a fourth version of Numista allowing entries to be read in the current modern language of their geographical area.

I believe it would solve some frictions regarding /EN/FR/Local spelling of names, currencies etc, while preventing our little team from being paralyzed by the perspective to translate 300000 entries in all needed languages.

Coins attached to France or UK would stay the same if this toggle is ON, but it would allow coins attached to China section to get full desc in Mandarin Chinese for instance. As a first step we could use english for fields titles and website menu (unless volunteers translators step in for this huge work).

The standard displayed version would be english if the local text versions are not existing yet for an entry (like we do currently in french and spanish for instance).

WDYT?

Sounds like a good idea. 300000 is a daunting figure though…

Hibernia

Sounds like a good idea. 300000 is a daunting figure though…

650K entries in total, in fact! 😅

 This is the website forum - ordinary members would not be able to see the ‘frictions’ link. 

Compendium

Hibernia

Sounds like a good idea. 300000 is a daunting figure though…

650K entries in total, in fact! 😅

Lots of coffee 🤩

Combien y a t'il de membres chinois ou parlant le mandarin sur Numista ?

Comment ont-ils fait pour découvrir son existence ?

La version française existe parce que Numista a été créé en français

How many Chinese or Mandarin speaking members are there on Numista?
How did they find out about its existence?
The French version exists because Numista was created in French

I am not smart enough about the technology behind the catalog to say whether we need a fourth version to accomplish what is desired.

But it would be good if (for example):  Dutch-speaking users, which I read was one of our fastest growing in 2022 New User Stats >> 2022 in Review – Numista , are able to search on rulers' names like Karel, Philips (Filips in Flemish) and Willem to find coins struck in medieval Holland or Flanders in those rulers' name, while French speaking users will find them by searching on Charles, Philippe and Guillaume.  

And that Dutch speakers can find the pennings, duits, oords, schellings and stuivers struck by those rulers in their country.  Some of which are currently listed as pennies or deniers, liards, shillings and stivers in the catalog.  

And that our Polish members (of which there also seem to be plenty) can easily find the polgroszes,  szelags, trojaks and szostaks they will be searching for (Americans are also used to searching on these terms, too, since they are used by not only the Polish auction houses). 

If we can accomplish this with “behind-the-scene” translation algorithms, while retaining the current French/English/Spanish structure that's fine.  

We should use whichever solution is easiest to implement.

This is the wrong solution to the problem caused by over-zealous “translation” of names. We have to consider the distinct roles languages play in a catalogue of things which span several linguistic areas. One role is to describe the thing. This might includes shape, colour, composition or design. The other role is to give factual information. In the case of coins and notes, this includes denominations and rulers' names. The two are quite distinct. A description needs to be written in a single language, otherwise it will be meaningless to everyone. We can't get around that but, with increasingly advanced translation software, we may be able to deliver meaningful descriptions in many languages without too much effort. The factual information only has one form (except for pieces from countries that use multiple languages, e.g., Belgium). This form (or these forms) must be used everywhere. To “translate” the factual terms and names is simply incorrect and is the root cause of all the “friction”.

A fourth version would solve nothing, since the descriptions would still have to be written in a single language, so we'd need two version for every language. A better proposal (to cater for those unwilling to give up their “translated” names) is to have new fields for each language version of Numista in which (should members want to add them) their chosen “translated" names can be added. For example, this note could have the "English translated" title of “5 Pounds” whilst this coin could have the “French translated” title of “1 Livre”. To me, these are unneccesary but, if it allows the correct terms to be used in the main field then it will be well worth it.

ceh2019

This is the wrong solution to the problem caused by over-zealous “translation” of names. We have to consider the distinct roles languages play in a catalogue of things which span several linguistic areas. One role is to describe the thing. This might includes shape, colour, composition or design. The other role is to give factual information. In the case of coins and notes, this includes denominations and rulers' names. The two are quite distinct. A description needs to be written in a single language, otherwise it will be meaningless to everyone. We can't get around that but, with increasingly advanced translation software, we may be able to deliver meaningful descriptions in many languages without too much effort. The factual information only has one form (except for pieces from countries that use multiple languages, e.g., Belgium). This form (or these forms) must be used everywhere. To “translate” the factual terms and names is simply incorrect and is the root cause of all the “friction”.

A fourth version would solve nothing, since the descriptions would still have to be written in a single language, so we'd need two version for every language. A better proposal (to cater for those unwilling to give up their “translated” names) is to have new fields for each language version of Numista in which (should members want to add them) their chosen “translated" names can be added. For example, this note could have the "English translated" title of “5 Pounds” whilst this coin could have the “French translated” title of “1 Livre”. To me, these are unneccesary but, if it allows the correct terms to be used in the main field then it will be well worth it.

You may have misunderstood the suggestion :-)

There would be an entire description in local language, in addition with french and english versions. 

And, no, still isnt true that Felipe IV is the name a french collector would use to look for Philippe IV coins. That, is a fact ;-)

I agree it may seem doable for you as spanish names are often easily understandable for french readers, but again, the role of a universal good rule is not to work in your little point of view but for everyone. There are currently many people angry at titles written with languages they cannot read, where names used do not look familiar at all, and you'd know it if, maybe, you paid a little more attention to arguments people take time to answer your bitter messages :-)

Now, please, water down a bit your tone here. It is a forum for passionate people giving a lot of free time to share knowledge and build a comprehensive international platform, not a place for disrespect.

Compendium

 

You may have misunderstood the suggestion :-)

There would be an entire description in local language, in addition with french and english versions. 

 

And, no, still isnt true that Felipe IV is the name a french collector would use to look for Philippe IV coins. That, is a fact ;-)

I agree it may seem doable for you as spanish names are often easily understandable for french readers, but again, the role of a universal good rule is not to work in your little point of view but for everyone. There are currently many people angry at titles written with languages they cannot read, where names used do not look familiar at all, and you'd know it if, maybe, you paid a little more attention to arguments people take time to answer your bitter messages :-)

 

Now, please, water down a bit your tone here. It is a forum for passionate people giving a lot of free time to share knowledge and build a comprehensive international platform, not a place for disrespect.

A free piece of advice. Don't tell someone to “water down their tone” whilst accusing them of having their own “little point of view” and being “bitter”. That is disrespectful.

Now, please read what what I wrote. There is a difference between a description and a name. That's not an opinion but a fact. What you claim to be a fact (that French collectors can't understand the name “Felipe”) is, at best, highly unlikely and is certainly not something that can be proven.

You are right that I misunderstood part of your suggestion, that all of the page would be in the local language. However, I can't see that being of any use whatsoever in ensuring the correct use of proper names. It just create pages that all but speakers of that language will ignore. That's why the descriptive part must be in a language they can read. Perhaps, in the fullness of time, it would be helpful in further expanding Numista's reach but right now we need to stop using “translations” of real names or, at the very least, have the real names appear alongside the “translations”.

Is Numista accessible from mainland China?

im all for spreading Numista to more users so if they have access to it I wouldn't mind seeing additional sites in Chinese, arabic…

@ceh2019 Please just stop repeating same things again and again since yesterday and let space to other voices.

Your point of view is clearly not the one of the majority in both threads if we look at votes, so why insisting so much?

And I precisely said that french speaking people can easily understand Felipe, dont say the opposite! What I said in addition is that it does not make a universal rule like “anyone can understand names and face values from any local language”, which is a plain non sense.

An example: N#96423

Also, Charles has 5 “true and factual names” if I follow your rationale? https://en.numista.com/catalogue/ruler.php?id=406

apuking

Is Numista accessible from mainland China?

im all for spreading Numista to more users so if they have access to it I wouldn't mind seeing additional sites in Chinese, arabic…

Good question. As we list Taiwan, not so sure…

Compendium

Coins attached to France or UK would stay the same if this toggle is ON, but it would allow coins attached to China section to get full desc in Mandarin Chinese for instance.

Why Mandarin? China has more than ten official languages, some overlapping in the same spot. This Banknote uses Mandarin, Uyghur, Tibetan, Mongolian and Zhuang. How about India, with ten languages on some banknotes?

If you only refer to coins, what would you call this Swiss coin? Rappen, Centime, Centesimo, or Rap? Bear in mind that some cities in Switzerland are multilingual. Same for Canada, Belgium, South Africa, Luxemburg, Serbia, Singapore, and many more, of course.

in the current modern language of their geographical area

This is also unclear to me. What is the modern language of the geographical area of a Roman Denarius, for example? Its geographical area encompasses hundreds of modern languages. And how about a Frankish coin? Or this banknote written in ten languages? Or coins, banknotes, and exonumia of most former multi-national states for that matter?

La version anglaise est en anglais

la version française est en franglais

la version espagnole est en spanglish

Bon courage aux traducteurs qui devront travailler une fois dans un sens puis xX fois dans d'autres

Pourquoi pas ene version universelle en latin, pendant des siècles tout le monde se comprenait tout en gardant son propre langage.

The English version is in English
the French version is in Franglais
the Spanish version is in Spanglish
Good luck to the translators who will have to work once in one direction then xX times in others
Why not in a universal version in Latin, for centuries everyone understood each other while keeping their own language.

(translate with appli, i not understand)

stratocasterWhat is the modern language of the geographical area of a Roman Denarius, for example? Its geographical area encompasses hundreds of modern languages. And how about a Frankish coin? Or this banknote written in ten languages? Or coins, banknotes, and exonumia of most former multi-national states for that matter?

I agree that multilingual states makes this proposition far from perfect or even worst in some cases….

Just tried to draw a solution to satisfy people who want local language in entries titles. How would you solve it?

But also good question on ancient issuers. I would separate Ancient issuers from other: Frankish kingdom or Roman Empire would stay only in french and english. 

Compendium

I agree that multilingual states makes this proposition far from perfect or even worst in some cases….

Just tried to draw a solution to satisfy people who want local language in entries titles. How would you solve it?

That's fine, I'm not criticizing you for trying. It just isn't the right solution because it seeks to solve the problem from the wrong end. I see few comments supporting this idea and the vote is currently pretty even. I didn't say “anyone can understand names and face values from any local language” because that would require knowledge of the script. What I did say (on the other, referee-only thread, so I need to repeat it here) is that names from scripts other than Latin will need transliterating. That isn't a small task but it's one we already do a lot of, when there isn't an immediately obviously “translation”.

Your example brings up a very important problem and we need to learn the right lesson from it. The problem is not that a Polish name has been used for the denomination, it's that the number has been kept as a Polish word. If this had the title starting "½ Talar" it would make a huge difference. That should happen anyway, regardless of anything else we do. We would never use a title of “Sixpence” for this coin (even though that's how it appears on the coin) because it drastically diminishes the readability of the title internationaly. That principle should apply accross the board.

Compendium

I'd like to suggest the idea to launch a fourth version of Numista allowing entries to be read in the current modern language of their geographical area.

Would this include the Irish language for Irish coins and banknotes.

Xavier has a simpler suggestion he'll clean and then share soon :-)

Compendium

stratocasterWhat is the modern language of the geographical area of a Roman Denarius, for example? Its geographical area encompasses hundreds of modern languages. And how about a Frankish coin? Or this banknote written in ten languages? Or coins, banknotes, and exonumia of most former multi-national states for that matter?

I agree that multilingual states makes this proposition far from perfect or even worst in some cases….

Just tried to draw a solution to satisfy people who want local language in entries titles. How would you solve it?

I have already explained and given arguments here:

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic123394.html

It didn't go very far.

I also briefly proposed a long time ago an update to the database for currencies that includes several more fields, including the name in different relevant languages, as well as plurals and monographical info. Similar to what we have for mints and rulers. It also didn't go very far. E.g. for the Helvetic Franc, the page would look something like this:

Franc

Issuer: Helvetic Republic

Also used in: Liechtenstein (1798 - 1803)

Circulation: 12 April 1798 - 19 February 1803

Abbreviation:  Fr., fr., CHF, SFr.

Alternative names: — (none for the franc, but can be used for different English spellings, e.g. kreutzer vs kreuzer)

Plural:

-   2…4: złote

-   5…21: złotych

-   fractions > 1: złotego

Local names: Franken (German); franc/francs (French, Romansh); franco/franchi (Italian)

Nicknames:

-   1∕20: Füüferli (German)

-   1: en Stutz, Einfränkler (German)

-   5: Füüfliiber (German); thune (French)

-   1000: Ameise (German)

Units:

-    4 Francs = 1 Thaler (English); Taler (German); thaler/thalers (French); tallero/talleri (Italian, Romansh)

-    1∕10 Frans = 1 Batzen (German); batz/batse (French); basso/bassi (Italian); bache (Romansh)

-    1∕100 Franc = 1 Rappen (German); centime/centimes (French); centesimo/centesimi (Italian); rap/rapi (Romansh)

Replaced:

-   1 Franc = 0.683 Bern livre

-   1 Franc = 0.619 Geneva livre
-   1 Franc = 0.429 Zürich gulden
…

Replaced by:  

-   1 Appenzell franc = 1 Helvetic Republic franc

-   1 Basel franc = 1 Helvetic Republic franc

-   1 Zürich franc = 1 Helvetic Republic franc

…

Precious metal content:

-   1798: 2.667 g fine silver

-   1803: 2.500 g fine silver

Foreign exchange rates: (only fixed ones)

-   1 Helvetic Republic franc = 1.48 French franc (1798-1803)

Wikidata: Q25344

Nomisma ID: —

ISO Code: CHF

History:

In 1798, the Helvetic Republic introduced the franc based on the Bern livre… 

stratocaster

 

If you only refer to coins, what would you call this Swiss coin? Rappen, Centime, Centesimo, or Rap? Bear in mind that some cities in Switzerland are multilingual. Same for Canada, Belgium, South Africa, Luxemburg, Serbia, Singapore, and many more, of course.

 

 

If someone finds this coin and wants to know its characteristics, I guess they will do their research based on the elements they have, i.e. what they see on the coin: HELVETIA 1986 1
he will learn that the currency is the Franc and its value 0.01 which he can read as he pleases as being Rappen, Centime, Centesimo or Rap. Unless Numista imposes the Rappen on him.
For a coin in unknown characters, he will first try to translate them into the language allowing him to do his research on Numista: English, French or Spanish: SWITZERLAND  SUISSE  SUIZA

Waiting for Numista to have a version in all languages