European Heat

Hello European Users of Numista!

I've heard that Europe is once again experiencing unusual heat and a lack of snow. I just wanted to know your thoughts and opinions.

Well we are having a much colder and wetter summer than usual down under - so maybe its balancing up.

I knew something was fishy, when I saw the latest Ukraine war reports seem to be missing the snow we saw through December.

Moneytane

Well we are having a much colder and wetter summer than usual down under - so maybe its balancing up.

I knew something was fishy, when I saw the latest Ukraine war reports seem to be missing the snow we saw through December.

I red some weeks ago that these unusual rains on Oceania were due to La Niña.

In Europ after a quite hot summer (a pick of 43°C in London on July), the winter is following the same tendency.

In France, the year 2022 is indeed the warmest year ever observed since the beginning of reliable weather records in 1900.
Following the war in Ukraine, the price of gas jumped from +15% to +30%. Electricity almost ran out due to many nuclear power plants shutting down. 32 French nuclear reactors (among the 56 French reactors) were shut down in September 2022 for scheduled maintenance operations or following corrosion problems that were not planned. The price of electricity also increases by +15%.
Extensive energy reduction programs in companies and for heating individuals are underway with results now of 10% savings in the whole country.
In France, a simple group of residents can block the installation of a wind farm for years by using the plethora of civil and administrative remedies. The administrative slowness in France is legendary and proportional to the multitude of unproductive civil servants, which is why the government has proposed new measures to speed up the installation of wind turbines and reduce the number of possibilities for administrative appeals.
The most worrying is the rainfall deficit of 2022 and even in autumn over the whole country. In 2022, water restriction measures in the south of France began in the spring and it is quite possible that these measures will be renewed in 2023.

We have not had snow, but that is not that unusual. It has been warmer though, we only really had 1 week in December where it got to <0C. For the most part it has been around 10C (It's 7C now at midday), and has been very wet. We have noticed that a lot of plants in our garden which normally would not be seen until March/April are already active. Likewise our fish in the pond; they are awake from their slumber already. 

I'm in the East Midlands, England

Yes I agree, La Nina - but we had La Nina in 2021 and 2022 as well and we still had hot dry January and February - but this year Temperatures all under 24c and 123mm of rain in 15 days, its rained on 12 of them (and 2 more had drizzle). Last January we had 8mm of rain spread on 4 days (The worst was 6.5mm) and every day was 23 or more with 4 reaching 28c.

I noticed highs in the UK are only like 12 or 14c - thats mild, but hardly a heatwave. Temperatures of 15c are experienced in London on average at least once every winter month and 17c is possible in December or February. I noticed southern France got 15 and parts of southern Spain reached into the 20s, but don't they usually.

Most of Germany etc was 10 or 11 - mild but hardly a heatwave. I would get worried if it was like 18c in Moscow or 15c in Oslo.

I was walking at -29°C in Moscow recently, so don't worry 

Unfortunately, we continue to confuse weather (short term) with climate (long term).  Ah, the human condition!

We just had the first day of sunlight (no cloud cover) in over 3 weeks in southern Ontario, Canada.  Can I say, that's a long, depressing stretch.

Cue some ELO….   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuJIqmha2Hk

We've been having a similar lack of snow here in Massachusetts, by now there would be snow on the ground. It snows at night and melts during the day within an hour.

I wish you well.

     Yes, that's right - the temperatures are unusually high ( it happens historically - it is not a human-influenced phenomenon)

It has a negative effect on nature and for me who has a small orchard of fruit trees (apricots, peaches, etc.) and small fruits (currants, raspberries, etc.) for me and my grandchildren.

     Even ornamental trees go crazy-photographed half an hour ago outside in the backyard - ornamental trees(in mid-January and in the heart of Europe)

Flowering "Jasminium nodiflorum"-out in the grass

This is a slowly opening bud of the white magnolia ornamental tree( in a week it will freeze, it will start to change slowly)

Yes, winter is still ahead of us and those who started waking up to the heat are out of luck-today the weather is starting to change and we are getting a cooling effect.

You see explained in one sentence,,,me again,,😁😜

Ahoj Ivan

MIMAEL

…     Yes, that's right - the temperatures are unusually high ( it happens historically - it is not a human-influenced phenomenon) …

 

You are right, the earth has experienced higher CO2 levels before !

But to find a CO2 level of around 400 ppm, you have to go back to the Pliocene, that is to say 3 million years ago …
Since the beginning of the industrial period, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has increased by 40% and this has strongly influenced the climate. Atmospheric CO2 has gone from 280 ppm in 1850 to 400 ppm today.
Before 1850, over hundreds of thousands of years, CO2 concentrations fluctuated between 180 and 280 ppm.
But above all, the recent increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is increasingly rapid: Over the last decade, it was 2 ppm/year whereas it was only 0.5 ppm/year 50 years ago.
Since the start of the industrial revolution, humans have been releasing CO2 massively.
The two main human causes are:
- the combustion of fossil fuels (6 gigatons/year)
- deforestation and oxidization of agricultural soils (2 gigatons/year)

Just wait until all the buffer capacities of the oceans are used up and the trapped methane in the permafrost and under the pack ice gets released then you really will feel the heat. I hope you have saved up enough money when the time comes for a good retirement home with a powerful climate control unit 🥵👴💀.

Global CO₂ emissions for all land and submarine volcanos lie in a range of 0.13 gigaton to 0.44 gigaton per year.

Frenchlover

MIMAEL

…     Yes, that's right - the temperatures are unusually high ( it happens historically - it is not a human-influenced phenomenon) …

 

You are right, the earth has experienced higher CO2 levels before !

 

Hello colleague and I wish you health and happiness.

    Even when I wrote the first post, I suspected that I was putting my foot in a snake hole ( In those three words) I am very sorry and I would not like to start an avalanche of this controversial topic on the web - here in Europe.

    I have my opinion, and yes, I agree with braking interventions polluted(cancel all aircraft flights in the air) 

Not so long ago I was lying on the island of Capri in Italy-I looked at the volcano "Vesuvius" https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesuv

i tell her: ,, my beautiful girl, I know you are already late, that you should have exploded again like many times in history,,

When it explodes, industry in Europe will hardly produce as much CO2 as would enter the atmosphere in many years, and all of Europe will feel it.

Yes, we have an influence on it, but no one wants to cancel the planes-I'm sorry, you're right, but weather changes really do alternate for millions of years regardless of the hundred years since the industrial revolution.

,, I personally live in harmony with nature - I plant trees and eat the fruits of my labor from the garden,, But the green madness in Europe is harming us in my opinion,, -global mitigation would be more desirable and involvement of the biggest pests.

So apologies to everyone.

From tomorrow it starts to freeze and snow and we will be back to normal.

Ahoj Ivan

We should not focus only on the planes, even if there would be some things to do on this subject. Is it normal that a few individuals full of money pay for a plane taxi Paris-Nice return trip during the day for a meal in a great restaurant on the Promenade des Anglais? with tax-exempt kerosene?
There are so many other topics to discuss!
I live on an axis linking Spain-Portugal to the countries of the north England-Netherlands and it is a constant procession of thousands of trucks day and night which cross France without stopping. And the train? Oh no, I hear, it's too complicated...
In Spain, you must integrate solar heating of sanitary water in new constructions, in France: no (because it is not beautiful)
Wind energy in France is a whole poem, it is years and years of instruction, of obstruction.
It's a whole new world that needs to be invented.

It's so frustrating to think that things will only get worse! Every winter I think, “will this be the last time I see snow or feel the cold air?” I hate the thought of having to endure a strange storm or weather event of some sort every year for the rest of my life. Not just heat waves, just having to feel a warmer temperature than usual or see less snow makes me break down in tears.

If there was only the weather...
In my youth there were grasshoppers in the fields, butterflies. Even small birds are intoxicated, they become rare. Swifts and swallows once galore no longer haunt our summer skies.
Intensive agriculture, urbanization, pollution and climate change. These are the main causes of the disappearance of biodiversity. These actions of man on his environment have multiple deleterious effects, sometimes multiplicative, on ecosystems and species. Disappearance of habitats, poisoning of individuals, disruption of biological rhythms, fragmentation of corridors are all consequences that undermine the resilience of species in the face of change.
Not very funny all that for the future

I think people should focus on the countries that don't care about climate change and the ones that pollute a lot. Take China and India, both have heavy industry, polluted to heck and don't care. China is like a line of factories belching coal and smoke from the pollutobowl days of 1870.

Many 3rd world countries have no understanding of the environment, due to their poverty and ignorance. Countries like the DRC are happy to have the Chinese strip mine the jungle for coltan and Ivory Coast and Sierra Leone to have their jungles and rivers ruined for blood diamonds. Arabia does not care if all the 300 million year old oil deposits are sucked up by America and burned away in car exhausts.

Global climate change needs a global effort, its not fair that only Western Europe, The USA and Canada and NZ,Aus seem to really be trying.

Moneytane

Global climate change needs a global effort, its not fair that only Western Europe, The USA and Canada and NZ,Aus seem to really be trying.

A big greeting to the island of happy people.

    Yes, I agree.

However, we are solving already solved problems. We know how to suck CO2 out of the air and thereby reduce the temperature of the oceans.

Just enter the Climeworks project:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climeworks

( It's just that no one wants to put coins on it (they say, some group of friends with the same focus) hides the coins and locks them in plastic and paper prisons) 🤣     -And then missing money for good things like CO2 hoods in the projects:,, Mammoth,, 

https://climeworks.com/news/climeworks-announces-groundbreaking-on-mammoth?_x_tr_sl=en&_x_tr_tl=cs&_x_tr_hl=cs&_x_tr_pto=sc

Colleagues, next week the clocks will move forward again and the time will be shortened from today's 100 seconds before twelve, according to my estimate, for 20 or 30 seconds. the manhattan project:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

We would be very warm about it, colleagues, let's realize and educate our children and their children that we really, really don't need this-that's the only way we can change the future of plnanet for a better tomorrow and nicer coins. 😇

The fairy tale is over and go to sleep.

Ivan

An interesting point to raise is that the current extremely cold temperatures in North America (-40°C) and Siberia (-60°C) are also the result of global warming.
It is the weakening of the Polar Vortex that drives cold air towards lower latitudes.

See the detailed presentation of the polar vortex.

I remember this tweet late 2017, I don't think he gave a damn about the climatologists' explanations …

We got some snow the last 2 days, but the night frost and snow wont last that long. The winters in the Netherlands are not the same anymore.

The weather patterns keep changing and the last year we are experiencing longer autumn periodes and dry/hot summers.

Moneytane

Yes I agree, La Nina - but we had La Nina in 2021 and 2022 as well and we still had hot dry January and February - but this year Temperatures all under 24c and 123mm of rain in 15 days, its rained on 12 of them (and 2 more had drizzle). Last January we had 8mm of rain spread on 4 days (The worst was 6.5mm) and every day was 23 or more with 4 reaching 28c. …

When you experience downpours in New Zealand, the counterpart is drought and out of control fires in Chile

I agree, whilst now there are serious fires in Chile. We had our wettest month in recorded history (Going back to 1844 which was in Little Ice Age) with 450mm of rain falling in January, the second worst was 356mm (14 inches then) in February 1869!!! Parts of the Coromandel got 600mm of rain. These extreme weather events are much more common.

The worst day was January 27th in which 258mm of rain fell on one day, the bulk of it between 5 - 9pm with rain fall totals of 71mm between 6 and 7pm and 61mm between 8 and 9 mm. The torrential rain killed 4 people and made 2000 homes unfit for human habitation.

This was the 3rd major storm in January witha  downpour from Jan 4 -6 with 50mm - 200mm of rain in the far north and Cyclone Hale from Jan 11 - 13 which dumped the same amount on the Coromandel. To add insult to injury the same Atmospheric River that caused the Jan 27th deluge, dumped a further 70mm of rain in the late night and early hours of Jan 31/Feb 1st and caused more damage and rendering the Coromandel region a wipeout with whole roads completely destroyed.

A further storm is predicted around Feb 12 - 14. To make it more bizarre, our South Island has had almost no rain and the extremely wet West Coast has been very dry and record highs of 29 - 30c (In summer 22c is considered hot for them). Christchurch had four days in a row of 33c temperatures (Usual high 21c).

Moneytane

I think people should focus on the countries that don't care about climate change and the ones that pollute a lot. Take China and India, both have heavy industry, polluted to heck and don't care. China is like a line of factories belching coal and smoke from the pollutobowl days of 1870.

 

Many 3rd world countries have no understanding of the environment, due to their poverty and ignorance. Countries like the DRC are happy to have the Chinese strip mine the jungle for coltan and Ivory Coast and Sierra Leone to have their jungles and rivers ruined for blood diamonds. Arabia does not care if all the 300 million year old oil deposits are sucked up by America and burned away in car exhausts.

 

Global climate change needs a global effort, its not fair that only Western Europe, The USA and Canada and NZ,Aus seem to really be trying.

Yes, the truth is that it would be great if people focus on such countries like India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Central African etc… The first problem of these countries is an energy poverty and poverty at all,  ecology would be the next…. And it leads to inefficient energy systems and wishing to burn the cheapest fuel (lignite and coal, especially that Australia exported so much) for electricity production, especially when Europe outbids and buy all the LNG contracted by such countries and they had to burn oil products just to minimise blackouts. And in case the “first world countries” had invested in power grids and power plants in these countries instead of burning billions for utopian goals like net-zero in 2050 and green hydrogen future, the World Carbon Budget wouldn't be spent so fast.

By the way, last 5 years China had added much more renewables that Europe and US together, I wouldn't put it in such list.

Moneytane

I think people should focus on the countries that don't care about climate change and the ones that pollute a lot. Take China and India, both have heavy industry, polluted to heck and don't care. China is like a line of factories belching coal and smoke from the pollutobowl days of 1870.

 

Many 3rd world countries have no understanding of the environment, due to their poverty and ignorance. Countries like the DRC are happy to have the Chinese strip mine the jungle for coltan and Ivory Coast and Sierra Leone to have their jungles and rivers ruined for blood diamonds. Arabia does not care if all the 300 million year old oil deposits are sucked up by America and burned away in car exhausts.

 

Global climate change needs a global effort, its not fair that only Western Europe, The USA and Canada and NZ,Aus seem to really be trying.

This coming from someone who I suspect has never been to any of these countries yet makes these ignorant comments. Had he been to these countries and interacted with people over there, he‘d know nothing is so simple. 
I’ve  grown up in india and spent my first 30yrs of life there. I’m now nearly a decade here in Canada so I can offer an actual view from both sides of my experiences. I was in Bombay until a week ago on vacation with family and friends. Yes the pollution today is terrible compared to even three years ago. But what amazed me was all the infrastructure coming up around clean technology. There were way more EV car options on the road than what I see here in Toronto. In Bombay alone they are opening 14 new metro lines that will all be electric and Will be a game changer for the city’s growth and environmental legacy in the future. But beyond that, like any democratic country that has  recently embraced market (crony) capitalism, you have an incredibly rich 1%, a struggling middle class and a still vast amount of poor people unsure where their next meal comes from. Among all these strata of people, there are those looking out only for themselves, everyone and everything else be damned. And then you have those who risk their careers and even lives to make the world a better place. 
If the govt in such a rich country like Germany decides it will “temporarily”  dump its much vaunted drive to get rid of its coal plants because they are worried that the average citizen is going to suffer because of the sanctions again Russia, what priorities do you think the Indian govt will be driven by where even now a third of the population is one small calamity away from starvation. Even then, the amount of money poured into wind and solar energy over there is astounding. 
Just as in Germany, there is a significant section of the citizenry who demand better environmental policies and efforts from the govt, so too in india and elsewhere in those so called “3rd world“ countries. 

Even with the pollution levels in absolute numbers growing exponentially, on a per capita basis , the average Indian still emits a ridiculously small fractional % of what the average American or European emits. How did the developEd countries even get to where they are in their standard of living? In the Europeans case, it’s pillage through colonialism and unchecked pollution for over two centuries. Even now at every climate summit, the rich countries fail to deliver the funds or technologies to bring economies of scale to clean energy while continuing to consume historically high amounts of fossil fuels themselves. It’s a sad statement that Chinese and to a lesser extent Indian companies are blazing the way forward. 
Having said that, has a lot been lost to ineptitude cronyism and corruption in india? most likely yes. But one just has  to compare to the US, UK or even Japan of yeateryear and see that it’s almost like history unfolding all over again. At one point London was perennially covered in smog and the thAmes was a cesspool. But the good news is that’s not the case anymore, and similarly that’s the hope in india and elsewhere. 

furthermore, don’t judge a book by its cover. just because a person is poor and uneducated, it does not mean they don’t understand things and what’s going on. I’ve come across plenty of people in my life whether It was the rickshaw driver, rag picker, cook woman etc who despite Lady Luck handing them a bad hand in terms of being born into desperately poor households, they are still enterprising and full of ambition. Given a chance like you or me, they would go on to do even more incredible things. 

Fighting global warming is necessary. 

Energy savings, clean energies.

But it is doomed to failure if we do not tackle the overnatality.

It's mathematical: a little less CO2 production per person with more inhabitants gives an increase in CO2 emissions.
 

In China, there was a one-child policy since 1980. The results? Bad

And now ... this Malthusianist policy is removed.
 

And India? 

India's population is growing by about 19 million people a year. In 2023 it will be the most populous country on Earth.
 

Demography in Indonesia? Out of control.

Birth rates in Africa are bewildering.
The numbers are staggeringly ugly.

 There were less than 38 million Nigerians in 1950. The country had 190 million in 2018. The UN predicts 410 million by 2050, and almost double by 2100, according to forecasts compiled by its World Population Prospects.

Exactly too many people and too many babies born to poor and ignorant people in backwards countries. Also religions are to blame with evangelical Christianity and Catholics seeing babies as a blessing from God. Same with Islam and its Polygamy and multiple wives (A story today about a Ugandan Muslim with 12 wives and 102 children and he can't provide for them - they have no idea what birth control is).

Developed countries its mostly the poor and ethnic minorities having too many kids and this sex culture where these people listen to garbagey rap music and have this Karadashian/Playboy/ sexy tv/porno culture. Also over permissive societies with solo mother benefits. There should be state control limiting the number of babies solo mothers, low IQ people, criminals and hood rats have. We dont need the average Malinese woman having 7 babies whilst the average Japanese had just 1. In NZ its like 1.4 for rich white people, 1.9 for poor white people, 2.7 for Maoris and 4 for Islanders.

Frenchlover

Fighting global warming is necessary. 

Energy savings, clean energies.

But it is doomed to failure if we do not tackle the overnatality.

It's mathematical: a little less CO2 production per person with more inhabitants gives an increase in CO2 emissions.
 

In China, there was a one-child policy since 1980. The results? Bad

And now ... this Malthusianist policy is removed.
 

And India? 

India's population is growing by about 19 million people a year. In 2023 it will be the most populous country on Earth.
 

Demography in Indonesia? Out of control.

 

Birth rates in Africa are bewildering.
The numbers are staggeringly ugly.

 There were less than 38 million Nigerians in 1950. The country had 190 million in 2018. The UN predicts 410 million by 2050, and almost double by 2100, according to forecasts compiled by its World Population Prospects.

Since you mentioned india and Indonesia 

, what do you expect for democratic countries which are finally developing and getting more educated. Did this not happen in Europe too between the 17th- 20th century. and did they not stabilise and now in free fall now. This is the fallacy of looking at things in isolation. India’s population is expected to stabilize in around 2050 and then begin reversing by 2100. 

Thank god no Other country on earth followed china’s one child policy. Not only the economic disaster it may potentially bring, but at the human level, the amount of pain and irreversible psychological trauma it has inflicted on atleast two generations of families. India too , had during the emergency period in the 1970’s, a forced sterilization drive sprearheaded by Sanjay Gandhi, the prime ministers son and heir apparent. His goons selectively picked up thousands of homeless and tribal  women and forced them to undergo the procedure without their consent. This was only one of the many things that he did and was so out of control, that its speculated his own mother had him assassinated when his propeller plant crashed. 
every person born on this earth has an equal right to it. so that leaves us with only oncle realistic alternative, quickly switch to clean Technology. In Canada and the G7, this should have already been fait accompli a decade ago. but here we are, still shirking our current and historical responsibilities. 

Moneytane

Exactly too many people and too many babies born to poor and ignorant people in backwards countries. In NZ its like 1.4 for rich white people, 1.9 for poor white people, 2.7 for Maoris and 4 for Islanders.

I wish a nice day to all collectors and I salute the island where people live at their best
companies in the world. ( Statistics say so)

  You made me laugh a little and I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, I just pulled it off like that and that's fine-it's simplified. The world is not only black and white is fortunately much, much more colorful.

   I understand that we all live in different educational, cultural (traditional) and social cultures-that's why our point of view is sometimes different and if it's within tolerated limits we can have fun with it.

    My view is also affected: *We have them here and in neighboring countries in the heart of Europe, people who use their children to receive social benefits in an amount so that they can live well and are not working for the third generation - this multiplication is wrong and will cause a lot of pain and tears in the future.

*I understand that there are landscapes where reflex is possible only in the subconscious, more children - more chance that some of them will take care of me and them in old age and not let us die of hunger.

*Even an uncontrollably large number of children, whether for religious or other reasons, is unacceptable for the family, the state, and the planet.

*Imposing deformation-theory on one child is completely unacceptable and experience has shown it.

*The definition of family and normal is in the UN Charter-      https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr%C3%A1vo_na_rodinu

Yes, we tolerate exceptions even on our website, but for life on the planet it is always a percentage and it is legitimate and already tolerated and taken as natural in developed societies:https:

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic129085.html

You can see that even we ourselves here on our website tolerate it and do not protest and it is right ( this is not far from me and I only found out about it here and thank you I'm not interested it's enough for me to be beaten by my own wife when I spread out a pile of coins from ancient Greece and throw them with a shovel in the living room)

You can see for yourself that we are able to resist both religion and wars, and we tolerate World War II coins and ISIL - yes sometimes it squeaks and that's why we have guardians of virtue here.

Recently it was the holocaust and the mere mention of an inappropriate word caused a storm, I succumbed myself when a member attacked me from Miami Florida. And I apologize to him, but the best defense is an immediate attack, that's what I was taught in military school-

https://archiv.epochtimes.cz/2013010620597/Pribehy-ze-stare-Ciny-Sun-C-a-jeho-Umeni-valky.html

I could also make an excuse that he just attacked on such an important day for me

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/28._leden

Girls and boys every day is marked by something in the history of mankind and to respond to a member because ( insulted) he fueled your event is short sighted.

Always try to think first that everything, the landscape, your continent and your tribe and family can also have different and slightly distorted views-and so let's tolerate each other and when we're dealing with it let's take our views as well( reaction to "Yevgenija") was also inappropriate.

Fortunately, we have a common deviance in that we fell in love with a piece of metal on which someone printed the image of a ruler or the inscription of another thing and we collect it ( and the absolutely stupid majority think that it is either for food or to buy a yacht and a small island)

😁😂Hello and without stress and in good health, let's look to add to the collections.

Ivan

ashlobo Since you mentioned india and Indonesia, what do you expect for democratic countries which are finally developing and getting more educated …

You say that we need just to wait until India is finally developed to see its population decrease, but that is a delusion and it is totally unequal without a real political will to change mentalities. This country, constantly described as emerging, is stuck in its caste system despite the egalitarian policy displayed. How many Brahmin women forcibly sterilized?
In the public hospital, medical personnel must obtain written or verbal permission from the husband when inserting an IUD, abortion, tubectomy or other aspects of a patient's health.

Moreover, medical personnel do not distribute contraceptives to unmarried women. 

The IUD is not authorized before the first child.

Furthermore at the hospital the nurse asks: “Why did you get married if you don't want to have children?”

 This question shows how the morality of young women is questioned when they move away from the social norm. Female sexuality, legitimate only within a marriage in India, must aim at procreation. A woman who uses contraceptives immediately after her marriage is criticized for her lack of modesty, because she shows sexual desire.

For Indonesia, with the island of Java as densely populated as Bangladesh, the authorities have a real desire to control births. Fewer mouths to feed is seen as one of the keys to Indonesia's economic take-off, but the authorities are overwhelmed.

Cars criss-cross the streets with loudspeakers: "Ladies, don't get pregnant", “Gentlemen, hold back!”. 

There are difficulties in supplying contraceptives 98% assumed by women with Indonesian men still very reluctant to condoms, yet more accessible than hormonal treatments and pills.

Frenchlover

ashlobo Since you mentioned india and Indonesia, what do you expect for democratic countries which are finally developing and getting more educated …

You say that we need just to wait until India is finally developed to see its population decrease, but that is a delusion and it is totally unequal without a real political will to change mentalities. This country, constantly described as emerging, is stuck in its caste system despite the egalitarian policy displayed. How many Brahmin women forcibly sterilized?
In the public hospital, medical personnel must obtain written or verbal permission from the husband when inserting an IUD, abortion, tubectomy or other aspects of a patient's health.

Moreover, medical personnel do not distribute contraceptives to unmarried women. 

The IUD is not authorized before the first child.

Furthermore at the hospital the nurse asks: “Why did you get married if you don't want to have children?”

 This question shows how the morality of young women is questioned when they move away from the social norm. Female sexuality, legitimate only within a marriage in India, must aim at procreation. A woman who uses contraceptives immediately after her marriage is criticized for her lack of modesty, because she shows sexual desire.

For Indonesia, with the island of Java as densely populated as Bangladesh, the authorities have a real desire to control births. Fewer mouths to feed is seen as one of the keys to Indonesia's economic take-off, but the authorities are overwhelmed.

Cars criss-cross the streets with loudspeakers: "Ladies, don't get pregnant", “Gentlemen, hold back!”. 

There are difficulties in supplying contraceptives 98% assumed by women with Indonesian men still very reluctant to condoms, yet more accessible than hormonal treatments and pills.

Well, the world has no choice in that matter, what are they going to tell a large democratic country… force sterilise your population or we'll sanction you ? I'd like to see that happen (when pigs fly). That is the definition of being delusional. So the realistic option is to help in transferring over to clean tech as soon as possible. But thats hard to do, if one doesn't lead by example be it the US, Canada or leading countries in western Europe. 

That said, as I mentioned in my previous post, there is already so much going on in India that it is staggering. hundreds of villages powered by solar energy, so many new EV cars on the road, improving electric transit across hundreds of cities including small ones and the list goes on. Is it enough ? no, absolutely not, so therefore we need more implementable solutions from the simple to the new and complex.

As for the social context in India, you obviously have travelled the length and breadth of India and stood next to that nurse while she asked “Why did you get married if you don't want to have children?”. I've lived in Bombay myself and cannot fully explain the dynamics within such a cosmopoliton city let alone the entire country. So I won't engage in moot arguments with tropes like that. I hope you visit one day and travel yourself and engage with people and see the constrasting differences in mentalities from the extremely liberal to the ultra conservative before passing ignorant judgements and exposing your prejudices. With 1.3B people, I don't know how anyone can assume such a country to be monolithic, when it's so obvious of the internal forces grinding with each other, yet somehow there is also forward movement, warts and all. 

I can't speak for Indonesia, but like India, it is a vast and diverse country with its own set of strenghts and problems. The path forward is never easy, but one eventually gets there being collaborative and recognising real issues than distractions as we seem to have here in this thread

Frenchlover

ashlobo Since you mentioned india and Indonesia, what do you expect for democratic countries which are finally developing and getting more educated …

You say that we need just to wait until India is finally developed to see its population decrease, but that is a delusion and it is totally unequal without a real political will to change mentalities. This country, constantly described as emerging, is stuck in its caste system despite the egalitarian policy displayed. How many Brahmin women forcibly sterilized?
In the public hospital, medical personnel must obtain written or verbal permission from the husband when inserting an IUD, abortion, tubectomy or other aspects of a patient's health.

Moreover, medical personnel do not distribute contraceptives to unmarried women. 

The IUD is not authorized before the first child.

Furthermore at the hospital the nurse asks: “Why did you get married if you don't want to have children?”

 This question shows how the morality of young women is questioned when they move away from the social norm. Female sexuality, legitimate only within a marriage in India, must aim at procreation. A woman who uses contraceptives immediately after her marriage is criticized for her lack of modesty, because she shows sexual desire.

For Indonesia, with the island of Java as densely populated as Bangladesh, the authorities have a real desire to control births. Fewer mouths to feed is seen as one of the keys to Indonesia's economic take-off, but the authorities are overwhelmed.

Cars criss-cross the streets with loudspeakers: "Ladies, don't get pregnant", “Gentlemen, hold back!”. 

There are difficulties in supplying contraceptives 98% assumed by women with Indonesian men still very reluctant to condoms, yet more accessible than hormonal treatments and pills.

Well, the world has no choice in that matter, what are they going to tell a large democratic country… force sterilise your population or we'll sanction you ? I'd like to see that happen (when pigs fly). That is the definition of being delusional. So the realistic option is to help in transferring over to clean tech as soon as possible. But thats hard to do, if one doesn't lead by example be it the US, Canada or leading countries in western Europe. 

That said, as I mentioned in my previous post, there is already so much going on in India that it is staggering. hundreds of villages powered by solar energy, so many new EV cars on the road, improving electric transit across hundreds of cities including small ones and the list goes on. Is it enough ? no, absolutely not, so therefore we need more implementable solutions from the simple to the new and complex.

As for the social context in India, you obviously have travelled the length and breadth of India and stood next to that nurse while she asked “Why did you get married if you don't want to have children?”. I've lived in Bombay myself and cannot fully explain the dynamics within such a cosmopoliton city let alone the entire country. So I won't engage in moot arguments with tropes like that. I hope you visit one day and travel yourself and engage with people and see the contrasting differences in mentalities from the extremely liberal to the ultra conservative before passing ignorant judgements and exposing your prejudices. With 1.3B people, I don't know how anyone can assume such a country to be monolithic, when it's so obvious of the internal forces grinding with each other, yet somehow there is also forward movement, warts and all. 

I can't speak for Indonesia, but like India, it is a vast and diverse country with its own set of strenghts and problems. The path forward is never easy, but one eventually gets there being collaborative and recognising real issues than distractions as we seem to have here in this thread

.

Did I say that sterilization is the right solution?
No.
I'm just saying that patiently waiting for mindsets to naturally change is not an option to keep the world livable, whether in Asia or (especially) Africa.

ashlobo

Moneytane

I think people should focus on the countries that don't care about climate change and the ones that pollute a lot. Take China and India, both have heavy industry, polluted to heck and don't care. China is like a line of factories belching coal and smoke from the pollutobowl days of 1870.

 

Many 3rd world countries have no understanding of the environment, due to their poverty and ignorance. Countries like the DRC are happy to have the Chinese strip mine the jungle for coltan and Ivory Coast and Sierra Leone to have their jungles and rivers ruined for blood diamonds. Arabia does not care if all the 300 million year old oil deposits are sucked up by America and burned away in car exhausts.

 

Global climate change needs a global effort, its not fair that only Western Europe, The USA and Canada and NZ,Aus seem to really be trying.

This coming from someone who I suspect has never been to any of these countries yet makes these ignorant comments. Had he been to these countries and interacted with people over there, he‘d know nothing is so simple. 
I’ve  grown up in india and spent my first 30yrs of life there. I’m now nearly a decade here in Canada so I can offer an actual view from both sides of my experiences. I was in Bombay until a week ago on vacation with family and friends. Yes the pollution today is terrible compared to even three years ago. But what amazed me was all the infrastructure coming up around clean technology. There were way more EV car options on the road than what I see here in Toronto. In Bombay alone they are opening 14 new metro lines that will all be electric and Will be a game changer for the city’s growth and environmental legacy in the future. But beyond that, like any democratic country that has  recently embraced market (crony) capitalism, you have an incredibly rich 1%, a struggling middle class and a still vast amount of poor people unsure where their next meal comes from. Among all these strata of people, there are those looking out only for themselves, everyone and everything else be damned. And then you have those who risk their careers and even lives to make the world a better place. 
If the govt in such a rich country like Germany decides it will “temporarily”  dump its much vaunted drive to get rid of its coal plants because they are worried that the average citizen is going to suffer because of the sanctions again Russia, what priorities do you think the Indian govt will be driven by where even now a third of the population is one small calamity away from starvation. Even then, the amount of money poured into wind and solar energy over there is astounding. 
Just as in Germany, there is a significant section of the citizenry who demand better environmental policies and efforts from the govt, so too in india and elsewhere in those so called “3rd world“ countries. 

Even with the pollution levels in absolute numbers growing exponentially, on a per capita basis , the average Indian still emits a ridiculously small fractional % of what the average American or European emits. How did the developEd countries even get to where they are in their standard of living? In the Europeans case, it’s pillage through colonialism and unchecked pollution for over two centuries. Even now at every climate summit, the rich countries fail to deliver the funds or technologies to bring economies of scale to clean energy while continuing to consume historically high amounts of fossil fuels themselves. It’s a sad statement that Chinese and to a lesser extent Indian companies are blazing the way forward. 
Having said that, has a lot been lost to ineptitude cronyism and corruption in india? most likely yes. But one just has  to compare to the US, UK or even Japan of yeateryear and see that it’s almost like history unfolding all over again. At one point London was perennially covered in smog and the thAmes was a cesspool. But the good news is that’s not the case anymore, and similarly that’s the hope in india and elsewhere. 

 

furthermore, don’t judge a book by its cover. just because a person is poor and uneducated, it does not mean they don’t understand things and what’s going on. I’ve come across plenty of people in my life whether It was the rickshaw driver, rag picker, cook woman etc who despite Lady Luck handing them a bad hand in terms of being born into desperately poor households, they are still enterprising and full of ambition. Given a chance like you or me, they would go on to do even more incredible things. 

Thanks Ashlobo - that was very succinct. Wish I had your patience to deal with prejudiced ignoramuses.

Moneytane

Exactly too many people and too many babies born to poor and ignorant people in backwards countries. Also religions are to blame with evangelical Christianity and Catholics seeing babies as a blessing from God. Same with Islam and its Polygamy and multiple wives (A story today about a Ugandan Muslim with 12 wives and 102 children and he can't provide for them - they have no idea what birth control is).

 

Developed countries its mostly the poor and ethnic minorities having too many kids and this sex culture where these people listen to garbagey rap music and have this Karadashian/Playboy/ sexy tv/porno culture. Also over permissive societies with solo mother benefits. There should be state control limiting the number of babies solo mothers, low IQ people, criminals and hood rats have. We dont need the average Malinese woman having 7 babies whilst the average Japanese had just 1. In NZ its like 1.4 for rich white people, 1.9 for poor white people, 2.7 for Maoris and 4 for Islanders.

Moneytane you seem to enjoy dissing Indians.

The stuff you have written here violates a good many points about ethnicity, diversity and race.

You deserve to be reprimanded.

I doubt that will happen. 

Frenchlover

Did I say that sterilization is the right solution?
No.
I'm just saying that patiently waiting for mindsets to naturally change is not an option to keep the world livable, whether in Asia or (especially) Africa.

I can speak for India that the govt spends vast amounts of money and efforts on family planning programmes. But in the end, every individual family will make their own decisions. Yea, it’s a natural progression, but as the country develops, it exponentially hastens. That said, if nothing else is done, then things will get worse before they get better. So the rich world including the G7 has to step up with money and more solutions than hiding behind excuses. 

now what, keep lamenting on how developing countries populations are still growing? I think I said whatever I have to say on this topic 

You still take refuge behind a false culprit "the G7 countries which do not give enough money" whereas the solutions can only be endogenous. 

For example, enforce the legal age of marriage when there are still a quarter of women who are married earlier. And a strong political commitment from all northern countries in the implementation of family planning programs.
The solutions exist and have been completed in the south. The demographic transition is complete in the four southern states.
In Kerala, the average age of marriage for women is 22 while it is still 16 in Rajasthan.
But I agree with you on one point: Stabilizing the population of India is easier said than done.
All governments have worked on it since the establishment of the family planning program in 1951, a few years after independence, the "population problem" is mentioned in the first five-year plan, the development of the country being considered compromised by the “rapid population growth”.

Species come and species go.  

Are we so special?

I don't think so.

Here in Ohio (somewhat central U.S.) we are not having a “heat wave”, but sinusoidal fluctuations with a peak temperature middle of each week that is extraordinary compared to historical norms.  Once each week we have set or at least matched a previous record:

9 February 71F / 22 C - Breaking previous record of 66 / 19

15 February 72 F / 22 C - Breaking previous record of 70 / 21

23 February 72 F /22 C - Equal previous record 

1 March 74 F / 23 C - Breaking previous record of 65 / 16

Probably everyone is seeing video of meters of snow in California, but that's 3,000 km from here 🙂

I am not a racist, I am a truthist. India now has the world's largest population having surpassed China.

I have no problems with peoples - just bad governments which exist the world over. I consider the atrocities of Trump and bunglings of the English Tories much worse than Indian governments. Perhaps you can call me racist because the English PM is of Indian descent and thus not liking him, means I must hate Indians right. 

Why would I hate a group of people known for their lovely cuisine, their ethics in education and respect and the greatest work ethic of any people and who pretty much have become great migrants wherever they go (Indians here are great migrants, hard workers and very successful with a lot of ambition, they are way under represented in any negative statistic and enhance our culture rather than detract from it).

Given I am a member of an oppressed indigenous people, being called a ignoramus and racist seems rather self defeating would one not think.

I love the Chinese people, just can't stand communism and their communist human rights limiting government. I am sure many Chinese people would agree deep down and its not a Chinese thing, Communism was invented by a white German.

Not racist, just a libertarian who hates nambyism and the woke pc madness of this world.

Back to the topic, those figures in Ohio seem impressive, 70f in February is very mild, usually February is the coldest and snowiest month, I could understand 70f in early December, when you still have some lingering warm air from the fall.

If it helps its the opposite here, a very cold summer and extremely wet. We had 90% of our annual rainfall between Dec 1 and Feb 28 (909mm), the last summer was 85mm and usual is about 230mm for the 3 months. We had 2 major cyclones, one described as the worst in our history (Gabrielle) and 3 major atmospheric rivers that caused floods and last week our first southerly storm which brought more floods.

Last year it got above 20 degrees every day from Nov 20 to April 5, this year we had 2 days below 20 in January and 3 in February.

The average highs for Auckland in Dec 21 was - 24.35 and hottest 27.6, Dec 22 it was 23.36 and hottest 26.7

Jan 22 it was 26.19 and 28.5, Jan 23 it 23.56 and 26.1 or nearly 3c cooler and like a typical April

Feb 22 it was 26.44 and 29.4 on the hottest day, 23.1 on the coldest and 14 days over 80f (26.7c)

Feb 23 it was only 23.45 and 27.3 on the hottest day only day over 80f, the second hottest day was 26.0 the day before and we had 2 days below 19c.

It was the worst summer in living memory and called the bummer summer. In fact it thermally fails summer and called a delayed wet spring which morphed into a wet autumn.

Strangely the first 2 days of our so called autumn, have been warm and very settled.

We are having that on the east coast mid state range of the U.S. we had a 80 degree f or 26.6667 degree c day in the middle of February. Our trees are already busting forth their leaves and a lot of flowers are in bloom. To top that the sea was at such a temperature it was fine to swim in!! For winter times this is odd!

Its Amusing to see the European heat has reached its roots to India ,Asia ,The Great wise men forgot what they have done to there own rivers and how many tons of Pesticides they used in there Farms ,they have forgot how many nuclear powered  Electrical Power plant has failed to quench there thirst for more Energy and the waste produce by these Plants is mystery ,how many vehicles they ply with the ratio of there population had how they produce dump of thousands  tones garbage due to there quest for new fashion clothes ,canned food ,electronic waste ,mobile phones  Every Year tones of Garbage is produce .

The US and few countries which is playing in Antarctica and Artic in the name of military experiments  has nothing to do with European heat ?