Holland/German thalers and gulden - appear to be sea-salvaged or corroded [solved]

Any help with precise attribution would be appreciated since there seem to be many varieties:



So far I've identified a Leeuwendaaler , a 1618 Mattias I Florjin and a German 28 Stuber from the city of Emden - exactly which coins especially the 1618 Florjin is difficult. Not finding any die matches.

Lion Thaler: 17g 41mm
Florjin: 13g 38.5mm
28 Stuber: 15.5g 39mm

if these are sea salvaged, please remember that the salt water will remove copper from the coin and make it lighter than known specifications

These came from a Dutch auction a few years ago but were part of a mixed lot sold to a dealer. I'm unsure if they were part of the same auction lot or not, the dealer's memory is fuzzy and the provenance has been lost.

https://imgur.com/a/tLcymsm if you want to download the photos to zoom in

My best guess for the Lion Thaler https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces108375.html since the tails seem to match
It may be from the Campen wreck https://mass.cultureelerfgoed.nl/kampen

Matthias I Florin appears to be a contemporary counterfeit.

Emden could be from this wreck since a similar one sold at auction: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4266&lot=1461

If it makes you feel better, I tried my hardest to find this variety to no avail but spelling errors have been known to occur. For instance, That C-I-V ( C--inverted V - I ) has been driving me nuts.
Sorry, hopefully you find a Netherland specialist.

Quote: "harryg"​If it makes you feel better, I tried my hardest to find this variety to no avail but spelling errors have been known to occur. For instance, That C-I-V ( C--inverted V - I ) has been driving me nuts.
​Sorry, hopefully you find a Netherland specialist.

​I appreciate the help!

Near match for the 28 stuiver / florin, same as your link: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces53959.html.

Based on the weight (and the strange errors pointed out by @harryg ... also the inverted A in MATTH) , we should consider a contemporary counterfeit in copper.

Quote: "tdziemia"​Near match for the 28 stuiver / florin, same as your link: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces53959.html.
​
​Based on the weight (and the strange errors pointed out by @harryg ... also the inverted A in MATTH) , we should consider a contemporary counterfeit in copper.

​That's still awesome if that's the case - I didn't notice the inverted A. The hollow wings compared to the regular filled ones is interesting.

With a bit more digging ... contemporary counterfeits of this type are known: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=281425

Possibility for the Emden coin: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4266&lot=1461 a similar one sold at auction

With permission to use your photos as cropped by @harryg, I would like to enter this into the catalog under Exonumia>Contemporary counterfeit. This could help someone find the coin in the future.

Quote: "tdziemia"​With permission to use your photos as cropped by @harryg, I would like to enter this into the catalog under Exonumia>Contemporary counterfeit. This could help someone find the coin in the future.
​

​Good idea! Fully support - it can be good for education

Thanks to quick action by our Exonumia referee: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia322911.html