State of Vietnam & Republic of Vietnam [solved]

Hi!
After a quick browse in the South Vietnam catalogue, I realised two "countries" have been mixed together. These are the State of Vietnam (Quốc gia Việt Nam) (1949-1955), which includes the whole modern day Vietnam, and Republic of Vietnam (aka South Vietnam) (Việt-Nam Cộng-Hòa) (1955-1975).

I can only assume this is an error which just never has been corrected. State of Vietnam should, obviously, be catalogued seperately from South Vietnam. Maybe as a sub-issuer of Vietnam?

The coins that needs to be move to the new State of Vietnam are:
10 Su - Bảo Đại
10 Su - Bảo Đại (Essai)
10 Su - Bảo Đại (Piefort Essai)
20 Su - Bảo Đại
20 Su - Bảo Đại (Essai)
20 Su - Bảo Đại (Piefort Essai)
50 Xu - Bảo Đại
50 Xu - Bảo Đại (Essai)
50 Xu - Bảo Đại (Piefort Essai)

Thank you!

The 1953 coins of the State of Vietnam belong under 'South Vietnam', considering that South Vietnam was nominally a monarchy under Emperor Bao Dai until 1955, when Ngo Dinh Diem imposed a republic after committing fraud in the 1955 referendum.

Aidan.

Bảo Đại was the last emperor of Vietnam from 8 January 1926 until 30 August 1945, when he abdicated, abd became the Chief of State of Vietnam in 30 August 1945 until 26 October 1955.

In Ocyober 1955 a referendum was held, and after some voting fraud clains and some turbulences, and yadda yadda, the Republic of Vietnam, commonly known as South Vietnam, was born, and Ngô Đình Diệm became the first president of the nee state.

The division of Vietnam started in 1945. The "State" may have claimed juristiction over the north but in reality it only controlled the south. As can be seen here and here, the communists were issuing coins and banknotes between 1945 and 1955 for the north. There's no need to create a separate country, it's fine within South Vietnam.

Quote: "ceh2019"​The division of Vietnam started in 1945. The "State" may have claimed juristiction over the north but in reality it only controlled the south. As can be seen here and here, the communists were issuing coins and banknotes between 1945 and 1955 for the north. There's no need to create a separate country, it's fine within South Vietnam.

​I think there's a reason why the cpins are called "rebel communist state".

The State of Vietnam absndoned its claim of the north in 1954, which means that between 1945 and 1954 there was no North and South, no matter what the people thought about it. The Democratic Republic of Vietnam didn't become a sovereign state until 1954. Before that is was an unrecognised state withing the State of Vietnam. Very much like Transnistria.

Whatever the "State" claimed, it only controlled the south. We have to be clear that "North Vietnam" and "South Vietnam" weren't official names except for the southern puppet regime between 1975 and 1976. We're using them in a purely geographical sense (as we do for Yemen) to indicate the areas the different entities controlled. Just because the communists weren't recognized doesn't mean they didn't exist and doesn't mean the State's claim to the north was meaningful. By keeping all the southern issues together, we make the continuity of that entity and its currency clear.

Quote: "ceh2019"By keeping all the southern issues together, we make the continuity of that entity and its currency clear.

​This is the thing, though. I reckon you don't.

Is it the continuity of the entity or the currency you're worried about?

Quote: "ceh2019"​Is it the continuity of the entity or the currency you're worried about?

​
The entity, I think.

Aidan.

Quote: "ceh2019"​Is it the continuity of the entity or the currency you're worried about?

​I wouldn't say I worry, but I was thinking more about theland mass itself. The official borders of the State of Vietnam and the Republic of Vietnam are bot the same, hence they shouldn't be grouped together.

Simplified history of Vietnam from 1945:
▪︎Empire of Vietnam, a 5 month puppet state of Imperial Japan.
▪︎Provincial Central Government of Vietnam, which was a transitional government of Tonkin and Annam, until Chochinchina united.
▪︎State of Vietnam, created by France 1949 with unification with Chochinchina. Internationally recognised in 1950. Large part was controlled by the unrecignised DRV.
▪︎The State split in two: Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) and Republic of Vietnam (RVN).
▪︎RVN became Provisional Revolutionary Government of the Republic of South Vietnam (PRG).
▪︎DRV and PEG united into modern day Socialist Republic of Vietnam.

To just bluntly ignore a step in history seems to me very weird. Why are we not recognusing the 6 years of State of Vietnam's existence? Like it or not, but it did exist, and it did control more than just the south. The rebel army of the north controlled parts of the north, but with this logic we shoukd list ISIS, since they actually did control parts of Syria and Iraq. The only difference is that they were pushed back (their agenda aside, this is territory wise).

This has nothing to do with the currency, since the đồng has been circulating since 1953.

Quote: "BCNumismatics"

Quote: "ceh2019"​Is it the continuity of the entity or the currency you're worried about?

​​​The entity, I think.
​
​Aidan.

​Yes, obviously. I haven't even talked about the currency.

I'm not saying the state didn't exist. I'm saying it only controlled the south of the country, so it should be listed as a ruling authority for South Vietnam. Clearly the areas controlled by the two competing entities fluctuated during the war but ignoring the fundamental division doesn't make sense.
As to the comparison with ISIS, the only reason this isn't already listed is out of fear that such a listing might be seen as tacit support. I think we're past such concerns now with North Vietnam.

Quote: "ceh2019"​I'm not saying the state didn't exist. I'm saying it only controlled the south of the country, so it should be listed as a ruling authority for South Vietnam. Clearly the areas controlled by the two competing entities fluctuated during the war but ignoring the fundamental division doesn't make sense.
​As to the comparison with ISIS, the only reason this isn't already listed is out of fear that such a listing might be seen as tacit support. I think we're past such concerns now with North Vietnam.

​
I.S.I.L. = anti-Islamic & NOT a state!

Terrorist outfits can't issue coins!

Aidan.

I do not think any change is needed here. I made State of Vietnam for South Vietnam though.