Add 3 new type for exonumia

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This message aims at: suggesting an idea to improve Numista

Status: Opened
Upvotes: 18
Downvotes: 0

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Hello,

I propose to expand the "Business tokens" type by adding 3 new types: Milk tokens, Beer tokens, Pharmacy tokens.

For the Swiss milk tokens alone, the reference book "Milchmarken der Schweiz" has 2216 tokens and the beer tokens book "Biermarken der Schweiz" has 1134 tokens. The books have just been added to the database, I still have some work to do ;). Adding the numbers of beer or milk tokens on Numista from other countries, I think there are enough to create a new categories.

As far as pharmacy tokens are concerned, there are no reference books, as far I know, but there are several hundred for Swiss tokens. Some of them are listed here. There are also more than 600 tokens for other countries, already listed on numista.
Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno
Some milk tokens from NZ:
https://www.icollector.com/Reiter-New-Zealand-Milk-Tokens_i17039672

good luck with request...
And a few from Canada
Coin enthusiast, always learning
Up :)
Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno
Hello,

Here is a proposal to rearrange the token section (as a first step, before we rearrange also medals, utility and paper exonumia). I tried to split the biggest categories, so that we can have specific categories for beer tokens, milk tokens, pharmacy tokens, carnaval tokens, shopping cart tokens, etc. Changes in comparison to the current types are underlined.

Could you please share your feedback?

Automatic tokens - Tokens that are intended to be inserted in a machine to get access to a service in an automatic manner
  • Swimming pool access tokens (currently in "Access tokens")
  • Other access tokens (currently called "Access tokens")
  • Shopping cart tokens (currently in "Deposit tokens")
  • Tool tokens (currently in "Deposit tokens")
  • Car wash tokens
  • Dispenser tokens (for coffee machine, cigarette dispensers, and other vending machine tokens)
  • Laundry tokens (currently in "Deposit tokens" and "Access tokens")
  • Locker tokens
  • Telecommunication tokens
  • Parking tokens
  • Phonograph tokens
  • Game machine tokens (currently in "Fantasy items > Play money")

Transportation tokens (currently called "Transit tokens")
  • Bus token
  • Railway token
  • Bridge token
  • Ferry token
  • Other transportation tokens

Confinement tokens - Tokens used as a replacement for money within a confined area (maybe we can find a better name)
  • Internment or prison tokens
  • Leper colony tokens
  • Military tokens
  • School tokens
  • Work encampment tokens
  • Local administration tokens (currently Trade tokens > Local administration tokens)

Event tokens - Tokens used as a replacement for money in the limited place and during the limited duration of an event
  • Shooting festival tokens
  • Carnaval tokens (currently in "Local administration tokens"
  • Other festival tokens (currently called "Festival tokens")

Ration tokens - Tokens distributed to population to organize rationing
  • Food ration tokens
  • Fuel tokens
  • Utilities tokens

Business tokens - Tokens which can be used to buy goods or services at a designated business (currently "Trade tokens > Business tokens")
  • Milk tokens
  • Beer tokens
  • Pharmacy tokens
  • Cafés, bars and restaurant tokens (Can we find a better name? "Food and beverage business tokens"?)
  • Ride tokens (currently "Automatic tokens > Ride tokens")
  • Dance tokens (currently "Miscellaneous tokens > Dance tokens")
  • Co-operative tokens (Many business tokens are currently in this category. Maybe we should not differentiate?)
  • Wage tokens (currently "Trade tokens > Wage tokens". It seems there are different types of tokens there. Some are not very different from School tokens and Work encampment tokens. Shall we review?)
  • Other business tokens

Coin patterns
  • Mint tokens
  • Coin patterns (It's currently not clear whether patterns and trials should be in Coins or Exonumia)

Contemporary counterfeits
  • Contemporary counterfeits

Utility items
  • Counter tokens
  • Coin weights
  • Tool tokens (currently in "Automatic tokens > Deposit tokens")
  • Deposit tokens (currently "Automatic tokens > Deposit tokens")

Fantasy items
  • Fantasy currency
  • ECU & Pre 1999 Euros (I see some common points with "Local administration tokens", maybe they could be under the same parent category?)
  • Fantasy items of fictional places
  • Live action role playing games money
  • Play money (I see some common points with casino chips, maybe they could be under the same parent category?)

Miscellaneous tokens
  • Religious tokens
  • Wedding tokens
  • Brothel tokens
  • Casino chip or tokens
  • Taxation tokens (currently "Trade tokens > Taxation tokens". There seems to be various types of tokens with various usages in this section)
  • Charity tokens

Some more comments:
  • I'm not sure where to classify the French "jetons à consommer" (https://multicollec.net/1-mo-h/1h49). Probably in "Cafés, bars and restaurant tokens"
  • Beer tokens are separated from the other bar/cafes/brasseries tokens. I believe that's OK.
  • Should we keep "Automatic tokens" as a category? Probably the exact same tokens can be used manually or automatically depending on the type of service and other factors. Even if it's not the case, it may be difficult to know whether a business token was accepted by a person or a machine.
  • Overall, I'm not really happy with the level-1 categories (automatic tokens, confinement tokens, etc.) and the "Miscellaneous" category is getting bigger. I'm open to all suggestions.
  • The International Token Web Conference will host a discussion about “Classifying Tokens” on May 7th. I'll join the discussion.
Hi
Here are some thoughts on the matter:
  • "Tool tokens" (currently in "Deposit tokens") would better fit within "Business tokens", as these are not (or were not) thrown into some machine but exchanged mostly at a counter/desk.
    [list]
  • Yes, "Utility tokens" better.
[*]Maybe "Transportation tokens" (currently called "Transit tokens") should be extracted/upgraded to main category. Subcategories could be bus token, railway token, bridge token, ferry token and other transportation tokens, a proposal just for the sake of the sheer numbers of these tokens.
[*]Within "Event tokens" maybe a new subcategory of "Mardi Gras Doubloons", these are quite different from anything else, so what would be the harm of having them in separate group?
  • I agree on listing these into "Souvenir medals".
[*]Within "Event tokens" or "Fantasy items" maybe a LARP subgroup would be nice. I would call out people from Germany, where are many such festivals with medieval themes taking place to comment this.
[*]"Wage tokens" could be moved from "Miscellaneous tokens" to the category "Business tokens".
[/list]
LP
Thank you Mikimaus!

I agree "Tool tokens" should not be within "Automatic tokens". However, I doubt they really fit into "Business tokens", at least with the definition I gave: "Tokens which can be used to buy goods or services at a designated business". Maybe in "Utility items"?
Similarly, we have some deposit tokens for banks or luggage which bear a number and are obviously not designed to be used in a machine (example 1, example 2). I suggest we also move them to "Utility items".

Good idea about splitting transportation tokens, and your proposed subcategories look fine.
There is a certain amount of tokens which don't have a designated mean of transportation. If they can be used with multiple types of transportation, I guess we should set them within "Other transportation tokens".

Mardi Gras Doubloons could indeed have their own type. If I rely on the definition I found at https://coinquest.com/cgi-bin/cq/coins.pl?coin=19868, they are not intended to be used to pay during the festival, so I would rather set them under "Souvenir medals".

I also agree we could have a section for LARP (Live Action Role Playing Games), probably within fantasy items.

Indeed "Wage tokens" can probably fit well within "Business tokens". Should we also move the "Work encampment tokens" to "Business tokens"? Is there actually a difference between both types?

I edited my previous post to reflect these changes.
Hi
I would also like to see "Challenge coins" in a separate subgroup, but I am still not yet sure, how to approach this topic...
There are many countries around the world, who issue such coins/medals. Our "big" Slovenian military has supposedly issued around 1500 different pieces alone (till now). I am adding all new entries to "Military medals", but somehow it doesn't feel right. There is also distinct separate branch of "Police Challenge coins".

See all kinds of stuff at these search results:
Military medals
Challenge coins

Further reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin

LP
I have a few suggestions for "Coin Patterns":

Coin patterns
  • Mint tokens
  • Coin operated machine test coins (example) Similar to ATM test notes, this category would be for coins handed out the coin operated machine manufacturers to familiarize themselves for a new series of coinage. The name is definitely clunky, so feel free to change it.
  • Coin patterns
  • Exonumia patterns (example) This is pretty self-explanatory. This category would be for patterns and trial strikes of non-currency pieces.
Master Coin Referee
Coin referee for CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN, and SLV.

Revisor principal de monedas
Revisor de Numista para monedas de CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN y SLV.

Slava Ukraini and Free Palestine!
I would also like to add charm and luck tokens.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia48666.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia31983.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia58086.html
Quote: "Xavier"​I would also like to add charm and luck tokens.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia48666.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia31983.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia58086.html
​In this category also "new year tokens" would fit, many in Austria, Germany, also some very specific in Greece and Cyprus.
LP

Fine-tuning the classification is usually a good idea but 
 

1. How many exos do we need to start creating a new category? 
2. Are we able to allocate a great number of exos automatically? (without having to wait 6 months for an easy update with Mr. Robot)

3. We need a clear definition for each category

> Swimming pool access tokens (currently in "Access tokens") 
-> how many are concerned? 

> Shopping cart tokens (currently in "Deposit tokens") 
-> OK 

> Tool tokens (currently in "Deposit tokens") 
-> What is the exact definition of a tool token? 

> Laundry tokens (currently in "Deposit tokens" and "Access tokens") 
-> for 100 token? I would say No. 

> Game machine tokens (currently in "Fantasy items > Play money") 
-> We already have "Game token" 

> transit/ transportation token 
good idea! I hope you can implement the different sub-cateorgies using the title description (make the change of 2600 token manually is not conceivable) 

>Wedding tokens, Charity tokens, Fantasy items of fictional places, Live action role playing games money, Carnaval tokens, etc 
... and other categories with a low number of items inside. I think we should avoid having too many categories. If we add new categories, a clear definition of the token/medals concerned should be given (confusion is especially important with medals). 


Milk tokens, Beer tokens, Pharmacy tokens 
-> OK 

>Cafés, bars and restaurant tokens (= "jetons à consommer") 
-> yes 

>Automatic token 
perhaps to rename to 'service token' ? 

> Tool tokens & Deposit tokens in Utility items 
-> yes, it's better 

> ECU & Pre 1999 Euros (I see some common points with "Local administration tokens", maybe they could be under the same parent category?) 
-> perhaps for some token. I see more common points with medals as they are mostly for collectors without exchange value. 

yes for 'lucky', 'new year' , 'charm' token-category 

Can we hope to get in the near future a tool to make mass updates (batch/SQL) to work on the catalog? 

With an increasing number of categories, is it possible to give the user the possibility to select the right category step by step? 
1. First selection: My exo is a token or a medal ? 
2. Second selection: for ex token: only token first-level categories are proposed 
3. Third selection: after selecting the first-level only the second-level categories of the first level are proposed 

I suggest also a: 
- Other token 
- Other medals 
to split the "Miscellaneous tokens" (30% of all items in exonumia). 
and for each first level section an 'other ....' category. It is easier to bring order in small sub-categories than in a rubbish bin containing 20000 items.

Also, we need perhaps a category for the after mint colorated coins.
 

katermurr


With an increasing number of categories, is it possible to give the user the possibility to select the right category step by step? 
1. First selection: My exo is a token or a medal ? 
2. Second selection: for ex token: only token first-level categories are proposed 
3. Third selection: after selecting the first-level only the second-level categories of the first level are proposed 
 

Agree entirely! 

If I may add to this, my first level distinction for “tokens” would be distinguishing between tokens with purchasing power and the ones without! 

Lets revive a discussion here a bit. :)

Catalogue administrator

First, you should define the different types of of exonumia. Starting with the highest level - what is the difference between a medal and a token.   If a token is something that is used in place of money, then really you shouldn't have Religious tokens, brothel tokens, advertising tokens, campaign tokens, or membership tokens. 

 

Each catagory needs to be defined before you can decide how to organize them.  For example, I thought that a tool token was a token that a worker gave to the “tool person” when they took a tool.  It had his number on it so they would know who took the tool.  A lot of them had holes in them so they could be hung.  If that is what a tool token is, then it wouldn't be under automatic tokens.  It shouldn't even be a token. 

 

There are just a lot of catagories that I don't know what they are (e.g. counter tokens, mint tokens, personality medals, ride tokens [different than transportation tokens?] deposit tokens, dispenser tokens, wage tokens, etc, etc, etc)  I can make a guess what they might be, but not everyone will have the same guesses.  

 

“Casino Chips or Tokens” should be broken into two sub-catagories.  One is Slot Tokens (metal tokens that are used in place of coins in slot machines).  Those are really more like a deposit token.  The 2nd is poker chips which are made of plastic or clay and are used at tables in place of money (which is more like company scrip). 

 

I like having transportation tokens broken into the different sections. 

 

For tokens that are for exchange at a specific business - I prefer to call them Trade Tokens, not Business Tokens.  Mainly because many said “Good for $X.XX in trade” .  I also think “Trade Token” is more descriptive for the purpose.  A “Business Token”  could be advertising a business.  

 

Tax tokens - there are two types of tax tokens.  One that is a receipt for paying a tax (e.g. Russian Beard Tax Tokens, dog tax tokens)  and the 2nd type is currency  used to pay sales taxes (United States mills if you needed a denomination smaller than 1 cent).  “Tax Token” should be broken down into subcatagories.  Neither of these should be under Trade Tokens. 

 

Should “Brothel Tokens” be under “Fantasy Items”?

 

I really think that the definitions are where you need to start. 

Posted by Xavier on 2-May-2022, 10:22

Hello,

Here is a proposal to rearrange the token section (as a first step, before we rearrange also medals, utility and paper exonumia). I tried to split the biggest categories, so that we can have specific categories for beer tokens, milk tokens, pharmacy tokens, carnaval tokens, shopping cart tokens, etc. Changes in comparison to the current types are underlined

Could you please share your feedback?

 

Xavier,

 

Some feedback on changes that would improve a couple of the categories.

 

Confinement tokens - I tried to get a change to where military tokens are located because confinement implies one cannot leave and therefore must use the tokens issued exclusively.  I don't have an issue with Confinement token if the intended user is truly confined.  Military tokens used in a dining facility, officer's or NCO's mess, etc., are business or trade tokens and should be moved into one of those (probably business tokens).  As an example of a token which use is limited to a confined area is N#227481 that can only be used at the company store even though workers are free to leave the area.  Alternatively, perhaps all wage tokens (currently under Trade tokens) need to be merged with Work Encampment tokens (under Confinement tokens) and then rename Confinement tokens to Confined Use tokens or Limited Use tokens to illustrate where they can be used is confined or limited instead of the user being confined (although both are true for Prison tokens, but it still works).

 

Taxation tokens - you mentioned there were numerous kinds of tokens included here.  I think we should separate this into Tax Receipt tokens that indicate a tax has been paid (like the dog tax receipts) and Tax Payment tokens which are used (exchanged) in commerce to make a tax payment on a purchase (like the United States sales tax tokens that were either spent or received to cover taxes that were a fraction of a cent).

 

As for separate level-1 categories for Business tokens and Trade tokens, these mean the same thing, so I agree with eliminating Trade tokens, but while my proposed Tax Receipt token sub-category may correctly fall under Miscellaneous tokens (dog tags do not meet your definition of a business token), Tax Payment tokens are clearly Business tokens.

 

Thanks for considering.

 

Best regards,

David (montana2011) 

XavierGood idea about splitting transportation tokens, and your proposed subcategories look fine.
There is a certain amount of tokens which don't have a designated mean of transportation. If they can be used with multiple types of transportation, I guess we should set them within "Other transportation tokens".

Hi

I would kindly ask if this small thing could be implemented. Its been a while now.

thanks!

There is a topic related with this (about notgelds https://en.numista.com/forum/topic129931.html).

 

In any case, is need:

  • add in some place the description of each category and subcategory (e.g. page with search results, help buttons (?) in each category of the main page of exonumia...),
  • add possibility of move (o request move) multiple objects to other category (e.g. the result of a search).
Wanted & swap list (euro coins & world coins, exonumia and banknotes circulated) https://goo.gl/AQjfKp - I have euro & world CC coins for swap.

davidhs

In any case, is need:

  • add in some place the description of each category and subcategory (e.g. page with search results, help buttons (?) in each category of the main page of exonumia...),
  • add possibility of move (o request move) multiple objects to other category (e.g. the result of a search).

I completely agree!

Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno

For the Australian collectors: please consider the following tokens and checks as well:

 

Bread Tokens: There are approx 600 catalogued in Australia, about 60 to 100 in New Zealand. They were used in the same way as milk tokens, easy payment for home delivery so the delivery person did not have to carry or handle cash. Most of the Australian Bread tokens were used in NSW but also used in Victoria and a couple in other states. A request for inclusion of the relevant catalogues has been made. There are a number of Australian bread tokens already listed in the Catalogue but put into the Co-op category which is not appropriate although those few examples were issued by a co-op. There are 100s of vendors with tokens issued for their particular bread delivery rounds.

 

Someone once suggested that bread tokens were based on the bakers dozen concept. That is, the cost of flour meant that if the customer could commit to purchasing in advance via tokens, the baker could afford to purchase the necessary flour etc, and the customer would receive 13 tokens for the price of 12 or some combination. This could have applied in Australia, but the cataloged tokens were mainly used for payment for home delivery purposes. The use of bread and Milk tokens across Australia (and New Zealand) disappeared with the decline of home delivery services.

 

Ice tokens: Small number issued in Australia, not aware of any in NZ. The use disappeared with the decline of home delivered Ice. The Australian Milk Token catalogue (William and Shea) includes Ice tokens.

 

Meat Tokens: A few exist in Australia as well as some coupons. These were ration tokens and fit in the existing category. 

 

Club Checks: These are value stated tokens used inside the club for purchases and fruit machine payouts.  Australia has 100s of these. They range from 1d to pound values.  Used by the clubs to reduce cash handling or mishandling. I have just requested the inclusion of a large number of Australian Clubs as Issuers so I can start up loading my collection of Club Checks

 

Co-op checks: These are normally dividend payouts for use in the relevant co-op store. Not many Australian that I am aware of but examples exist in NZ (about 20 or so). The existing Australian co-op tokens listed in Numista are actually bread tokens relating to bread delivery by the co-op bakery

 

Club Tokens: Used in Fruit Machines or gambling machines in Australian clubs. Referred to as Club Tokens (NSV - non stated value) - and they normally were especially made for the club and have the club name on them. 100s of them, most of them now catalogued by Shea and listed in the Queensland Numismatic Society magazine over the last 10 years. Looking forward to a compiled catalogue even if I have to do it myself.

 

Fruit Machine tokens: Usually fruit or gambling machines tokens without a club name that were used in other locations. They are normally tagged by the issuer or owner of the fruit machine such as C. Shelley or as a general Fruit Machine token. Not really suitable for the Game or amusement tokens section and there were a large number of them used in Australia including imported tokens from England and USA for imported machines.

 

 Australian and New Zealand Tradesmen Tokens.

These are currently in the catalogue as Coins although traditionally considered as tokens for various legal and practical reasons (poor quality, low weight, non standard sizes and general unwillingness by authorities and the public to accept as payment, and the issuers to redeem). A newspaper story about a token issuer in NZ refusing to accept his tokens for payment for a box of salt resulting in a court case over the issue of Tradesman tokens in NZ and the responsibility for their redemption. Included in the series as catalogued by various researchers including Andrews are some check pieces (Value stated) but most of the series were considered to be one penny or a half penny based on approximate size. Andrews also includes overstamped coins (english, French etc) that were current at that time and which advertised Australian Businesses.

 

I would suggest a separate area in Coins and not under States (Colonies) as the Tradesmen tokens had little or no legal basis re the states, were used across Australia and New Zealand, were initially banned in Australia (state by state), and then exported to New Zealand who had not yet banned them, who then banned both the Australian and NZ tokens in self-defense.  

 

If you wished to retain them in the Coins catalogue, note that the current catalogues for these items list them by Issuer rather than State. The allocation against state is a holdover from the early Renniks catalogue (Skinner) who set out to attract collectors who were interested in State issues. Renniks later reorganized (and renumbered) his catalogue to listing by issuer in line with Andrews and this approach is continued in Gray.

 

thanks

MC

Somehow I had missed this post.

 

Carefull with adding too many categories indeed.

There might exist 500 Tokens or medals of a certain category but there might be just 1-2 added on Numista and that makes too little to have a seperate category.

 

A Token does not have to be only of a monetary function. All Tokens however have some form of active fundtion, even if it is just unlocking the shopping cart with a plastic chip.

Tokens with a monetary value will still of course be one of the major parts of all the tokens.

 

One clear wrong usage to me is Mint Tokens. I do not see any other usage than collectability and these should be called Mint Medals, regardless of their size.

 

Id like to get back on the current list as indeed some naming are to complicated or not fitting.

 

 

Paul

If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.

mike c

For the Australian collectors: please consider the following tokens and checks as well:

 

Bread Tokens: There are approx 600 catalogued in Australia, about 60 to 100 in New Zealand. They were used in the same way as milk tokens, easy payment for home delivery so the delivery person did not have to carry or handle cash. Most of the Australian Bread tokens were used in NSW but also used in Victoria and a couple in other states. A request for inclusion of the relevant catalogues has been made. There are a number of Australian bread tokens already listed in the Catalogue but put into the Co-op category which is not appropriate although those few examples were issued by a co-op. There are 100s of vendors with tokens issued for their particular bread delivery rounds.

 

Someone once suggested that bread tokens were based on the bakers dozen concept. That is, the cost of flour meant that if the customer could commit to purchasing in advance via tokens, the baker could afford to purchase the necessary flour etc, and the customer would receive 13 tokens for the price of 12 or some combination. This could have applied in Australia, but the cataloged tokens were mainly used for payment for home delivery purposes. The use of bread and Milk tokens across Australia (and New Zealand) disappeared with the decline of home delivery services.

 

Ice tokens: Small number issued in Australia, not aware of any in NZ. The use disappeared with the decline of home delivered Ice. The Australian Milk Token catalogue (William and Shea) includes Ice tokens.

 

Meat Tokens: A few exist in Australia as well as some coupons. These were ration tokens and fit in the existing category. 

 

Club Checks: These are value stated tokens used inside the club for purchases and fruit machine payouts.  Australia has 100s of these. They range from 1d to pound values.  Used by the clubs to reduce cash handling or mishandling. I have just requested the inclusion of a large number of Australian Clubs as Issuers so I can start up loading my collection of Club Checks

 

Co-op checks: These are normally dividend payouts for use in the relevant co-op store. Not many Australian that I am aware of but examples exist in NZ (about 20 or so). The existing Australian co-op tokens listed in Numista are actually bread tokens relating to bread delivery by the co-op bakery

 

Club Tokens: Used in Fruit Machines or gambling machines in Australian clubs. Referred to as Club Tokens (NSV - non stated value) - and they normally were especially made for the club and have the club name on them. 100s of them, most of them now catalogued by Shea and listed in the Queensland Numismatic Society magazine over the last 10 years. Looking forward to a compiled catalogue even if I have to do it myself.

 

Fruit Machine tokens: Usually fruit or gambling machines tokens without a club name that were used in other locations. They are normally tagged by the issuer or owner of the fruit machine such as C. Shelley or as a general Fruit Machine token. Not really suitable for the Game or amusement tokens section and there were a large number of them used in Australia including imported tokens from England and USA for imported machines.

 

 Australian and New Zealand Tradesmen Tokens.

These are currently in the catalogue as Coins although traditionally considered as tokens for various legal and practical reasons (poor quality, low weight, non standard sizes and general unwillingness by authorities and the public to accept as payment, and the issuers to redeem). A newspaper story about a token issuer in NZ refusing to accept his tokens for payment for a box of salt resulting in a court case over the issue of Tradesman tokens in NZ and the responsibility for their redemption. Included in the series as catalogued by various researchers including Andrews are some check pieces (Value stated) but most of the series were considered to be one penny or a half penny based on approximate size. Andrews also includes overstamped coins (english, French etc) that were current at that time and which advertised Australian Businesses.

 

I would suggest a separate area in Coins and not under States (Colonies) as the Tradesmen tokens had little or no legal basis re the states, were used across Australia and New Zealand, were initially banned in Australia (state by state), and then exported to New Zealand who had not yet banned them, who then banned both the Australian and NZ tokens in self-defense.  

 

If you wished to retain them in the Coins catalogue, note that the current catalogues for these items list them by Issuer rather than State. The allocation against state is a holdover from the early Renniks catalogue (Skinner) who set out to attract collectors who were interested in State issues. Renniks later reorganized (and renumbered) his catalogue to listing by issuer in line with Andrews and this approach is continued in Gray.

 

thanks

MC

 

Bread tokens might indeed merit a separate category, but in my opinion the others can be found in the other types.

Ice tokens --> milk tokens 
Meat Tokens --> Food ration tokens (in my opinion there are too few of them to create a new category)
Club Checks & Fruit Machine tokens --> Game machine tokens ? (possibly create a main category with Game machine tokens, Casino chip and Casino token ?)
Co-op checks --> Co-operative tokens
Australian and New Zealand Tradesmen Tokens --> Not in exonumia

Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno

I still do not get it why the catalogue is forcing some categories like they are universal all around the globe.  Some countries truly have specific token types and why not honor these groups accordingly? I am pretty sure that every referee, who is deeply involved and tries to understand the purpose of locally issued tokens, will manage some 50+ or more different subtypes. Some token types could also be locked per state where it was issued.

LP

mikimaus

I still do not get it why the catalogue is forcing some categories like they are universal all around the globe.  Some countries truly have specific token types and why not honor these groups accordingly? I am pretty sure that every referee, who is deeply involved and tries to understand the purpose of locally issued tokens, will manage some 50+ or more different subtypes. Some token types could also be locked per state where it was issued.

LP

I don't think it's a question of the will or skill of the referees. I believe the core issue lies in ensuring both consistency and ease of use within the catalogue. Numista prides itself on its universal coverage, encompassing tokens from across the globe. Thus, devising a cohesive classification system for these tokens is essential. However, we must navigate the fine line between precision and clutter. Creating categories for only a handful of tokens specific to one country seems impractical, while organizing types solely by country could lead to confusion.

Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno

Basteros

mikimaus

I still do not get it why the catalogue is forcing some categories like they are universal all around the globe.  Some countries truly have specific token types and why not honor these groups accordingly? I am pretty sure that every referee, who is deeply involved and tries to understand the purpose of locally issued tokens, will manage some 50+ or more different subtypes. Some token types could also be locked per state where it was issued.

LP

I don't think it's a question of the will or skill of the referees. I believe the core issue lies in ensuring both consistency and ease of use within the catalogue. Numista prides itself on its universal coverage, encompassing tokens from across the globe. Thus, devising a cohesive classification system for these tokens is essential. However, we must navigate the fine line between precision and clutter. Creating categories for only a handful of tokens specific to one country seems impractical, while organizing types solely by country could lead to confusion.

So at which point do you feel a right number of tokens added to Numista deserves a new category? Simple question. I would not like to go and dissect the current numbers…

This was mentioned sometimes by Xavier altough as far as I remember no exact number was called.

In the past we used to have a lot more seperated categories to what we later called Exonumia.

this resulted in a big mess, sometimes when adding an item there where suddenly several categories that would have fitted the placement of your token.

im not saying we do not need changes of existing categories, I also feel that we are still missing essential categories as well, several of which have been mentioned here.

of course regional tokens are important and have to be accounted for, we still should analyse case by case if a new category is really needed or if an item could not already well be placed into an existing category.

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mike c

For the Australian collectors: please consider the following tokens and checks as well:

 

Bread Tokens: There are approx 600 catalogued in Australia, about 60 to 100 in New Zealand. They were used in the same way as milk tokens, easy payment for home delivery so the delivery person did not have to carry or handle cash. Most of the Australian Bread tokens were used in NSW but also used in Victoria and a couple in other states. A request for inclusion of the relevant catalogues has been made. There are a number of Australian bread tokens already listed in the Catalogue but put into the Co-op category which is not appropriate although those few examples were issued by a co-op. There are 100s of vendors with tokens issued for their particular bread delivery rounds.

 

Someone once suggested that bread tokens were based on the bakers dozen concept. That is, the cost of flour meant that if the customer could commit to purchasing in advance via tokens, the baker could afford to purchase the necessary flour etc, and the customer would receive 13 tokens for the price of 12 or some combination. This could have applied in Australia, but the cataloged tokens were mainly used for payment for home delivery purposes. The use of bread and Milk tokens across Australia (and New Zealand) disappeared with the decline of home delivery services.

 

Ice tokens: Small number issued in Australia, not aware of any in NZ. The use disappeared with the decline of home delivered Ice. The Australian Milk Token catalogue (William and Shea) includes Ice tokens.

 

Meat Tokens: A few exist in Australia as well as some coupons. These were ration tokens and fit in the existing category. 

 

Club Checks: These are value stated tokens used inside the club for purchases and fruit machine payouts.  Australia has 100s of these. They range from 1d to pound values.  Used by the clubs to reduce cash handling or mishandling. I have just requested the inclusion of a large number of Australian Clubs as Issuers so I can start up loading my collection of Club Checks

 

Co-op checks: These are normally dividend payouts for use in the relevant co-op store. Not many Australian that I am aware of but examples exist in NZ (about 20 or so). The existing Australian co-op tokens listed in Numista are actually bread tokens relating to bread delivery by the co-op bakery

 

Club Tokens: Used in Fruit Machines or gambling machines in Australian clubs. Referred to as Club Tokens (NSV - non stated value) - and they normally were especially made for the club and have the club name on them. 100s of them, most of them now catalogued by Shea and listed in the Queensland Numismatic Society magazine over the last 10 years. Looking forward to a compiled catalogue even if I have to do it myself.

 

Fruit Machine tokens: Usually fruit or gambling machines tokens without a club name that were used in other locations. They are normally tagged by the issuer or owner of the fruit machine such as C. Shelley or as a general Fruit Machine token. Not really suitable for the Game or amusement tokens section and there were a large number of them used in Australia including imported tokens from England and USA for imported machines.

 

 Australian and New Zealand Tradesmen Tokens.

These are currently in the catalogue as Coins although traditionally considered as tokens for various legal and practical reasons (poor quality, low weight, non standard sizes and general unwillingness by authorities and the public to accept as payment, and the issuers to redeem). A newspaper story about a token issuer in NZ refusing to accept his tokens for payment for a box of salt resulting in a court case over the issue of Tradesman tokens in NZ and the responsibility for their redemption. Included in the series as catalogued by various researchers including Andrews are some check pieces (Value stated) but most of the series were considered to be one penny or a half penny based on approximate size. Andrews also includes overstamped coins (english, French etc) that were current at that time and which advertised Australian Businesses.

 

I would suggest a separate area in Coins and not under States (Colonies) as the Tradesmen tokens had little or no legal basis re the states, were used across Australia and New Zealand, were initially banned in Australia (state by state), and then exported to New Zealand who had not yet banned them, who then banned both the Australian and NZ tokens in self-defense.  

 

If you wished to retain them in the Coins catalogue, note that the current catalogues for these items list them by Issuer rather than State. The allocation against state is a holdover from the early Renniks catalogue (Skinner) who set out to attract collectors who were interested in State issues. Renniks later reorganized (and renumbered) his catalogue to listing by issuer in line with Andrews and this approach is continued in Gray.

 

thanks

MC

 

Here in the UK, we have  some oddities that will need to be kept in separate categories too.

 

Market Trader Tokens: I picked up a Spitalfields Market token a couple of years ago.  They're good quality tokens and are indicative of the way traders in many of the large markets used to try to keep money circulating within the local community.

 

 

Co-op Tokens:   Although they are often very thin and some look like someone cut them out of a sheet of tin in the morning, many go back over a hundred years and are becoming difficult to find now.  There is also a book available identifying the various types.

 

 

Paper Exonumia:  Still being produced and used today, i.e. the Lewes Pound.  This all needs a bit of a sort out too.

 

Amateur coin collector with some tokens

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