Proposal to Modify Italian States, Firenze and Tuscany [solved]

I've been adding some medieval coins of Florence to my collection recently, and noticed some small discrepancies between our current catalog, and what I am seeing used elsewhere for Florence and Tuscany.
I propose we modify the section Italian States, Firenze to look like this:

Firenze, Republic
- Fiorino d'Argento (1189-1260)
- Fiorino d'Oro (1260-1532)
Firenze, Duchy
- Fiorino d'Oro (1532-1569)

The Florentine Republic dates to 1115, but the minting rights were granted a bit later, in the 1180s (CNI XII, p.2 https://www.numismaticadellostato.it/web/pns/iuno-moneta/biblioteca/corpus). Hence the change in date for the first currency, which was based on the silver fiorino of about 1.7 g.
We would move one current listing into this new section: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces74703.html

The gold florin is introduced in 1260, so we just change the start date of the main (gold) currency section based on this, but we change the end date to 1532 when Florence (the issuing authority) ceased to be a Republic and became a Duchy.

Florence was a Duchy from 1532 to 1569. After this, it becomes the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, which is a different section in Italian States.
This coin would be moved this new section Firenze, Duchy of: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces119333.html
There is then a place for coins of the two dukes who reigned 1532-1569 to be added.

So, the second change is to change the starting date of Italian States, Tuscany to 1569. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Tuscany.
We already have coins in this section which pre-date the current start date (1601) so we know something is not correct here.

Thanks for considering this request.

Quote: "tdziemia"​I propose we modify the section Italian States, Firenze to look like this:
​
​Firenze, Republic
​- Fiorino d'Argento (1189-1260)
​- Fiorino d'Oro (1260-1532)
​Firenze, Duchy
​- Fiorino d'Oro (1532-1569)

Republic/Duchy was just a change in ruling authority / form of government. There is otherwise historic and numismatic continuity and the territory and population of the state stayed the same. In Numista, we don't split issuers based on a change in rulers alone.

The Duchy of Tuscany is a more significant change, occurring after the integration of the Republic of Siena, that's why this is separate.

Furthermore, while after 1532 Florence became technically a hereditary monarchy, it remained on paper a Republic ruled by Dukes.

Quote: "tdziemia"​The Florentine Republic dates to 1115, but the minting rights were granted a bit later, in the 1180s (CNI XII, p.2 https://www.numismaticadellostato.it/web/pns/iuno-moneta/biblioteca/corpus). Hence the change in date for the first currency, which was based on the silver fiorino of about 1.7 g.
​

​I am not sure what the right date is here: CNI lists silver florins from 1182 (?) and some ancient denarii from 1097 (?), which obviously predate the Republic. It was often the case that medieval states were minting coins before they got minting rights.

Quote: "tdziemia"​The gold florin is introduced in 1260, so we just change the start date of the main (gold) currency section based on this, but we change the end date to 1532 when Florence (the issuing authority) ceased to be a Republic and became a Duchy.

​I checked the monograph of Mario Bernocchi and gold florins and quarter florins types I-IV were introduced in 1252, not 1260. This is also confirmed by the CNI catalogue you've linked, and you can see here an example. Furthermore, there are denarii known to be minted until 1260, of which we have an example in Numista already. If we split the currency in 1252, these denarii would span the two currencies, before and after 1252... which we should try to avoid.

Quote: "tdziemia"​​This coin would be moved this new section Firenze, Duchy of: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces119333.html
​

Sure!

Quote: "tdziemia"​There is then a place for coins of the two dukes who reigned 1532-1569 to be added.
​So, the second change is to change the starting date of Italian States, Tuscany to 1569.
​

​There are ruling authorities in the database as you suggest, just no coins have been added for the rule of Alessandro yet. There is also a currency called florin (1569-1601), just no coin assigned to it yet.
​

Thanks for those clarifications. Yes, I wasn't sure how to handle the period 1532-1569, and what you say there makes sense (i.e. that the title of duke did not necessarily change the form of government).

Do you think it makes sense to differentiate Firenze between the time when the currency was based on the silver fiorino of 12 denari, and the time when the gold florin is introduced? (if it is 1252, and not 1260, then I stand corrected). I understand that means the silver coin spans two currencies, but otherwise it looks like there isonly one currency for this period, which I think is also inaccurate.

And do you think it makes sense to end Firenze in 1569, when the Grand Duchy of Tuscany begins, and to change the start for Grand Duchy of Tuscany to 1569? These two coins currently in the catalog are issued under MAGN DVX ETRVRIAE before 1601 which is the start date we currently have for Grand DUchy of Tuscany:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces80302.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces196642.html

Again, thanks for taking time to respond.

We have here some guidelines for splitting currencies:
https://en.numista.com/numisdoc/articles/catalogue_guidelines.php#splitting_currencies, independent

I think the silver and gold coinage of Florence should be split into separate independent currencies because there is no fixed exchange rate between them. The silver coin depreciated gradually over three centuries:
in 1252: 1 gold florin = 20 silver florins = 1 lira
in 1533: 1 gold florin = 150 silver florins = 7 lire 10 soldi

So I think there should be two currencies:
• Gold florin (1252-1569)
• Denaro (circa 1182 - 1569)

And I would use denaro because the value of the other coins also fluctuated, but was was always in reference to the denaro (e.g. grosso of 30 denari, grosso of 48 denari, etc)

For your other points, as mentioned above, I've already created the currency "Florin (1569-1601)" for Tuscany a long time ago, but it is not attributed to any coins in Tuscany. If you edit a coin page, you will find it available in the drop-down list. And once a coin is attributed to this currency, it will become visible in the menu.

Similarly, for Florence, the currency "Fiorino (1569-1601)" appears in the menu because it is attributed to this coin, which is actually from Tuscany. Once the coin is moved to Tuscany, the currency will also disappear from the menu in Florence.

Hope it all makes sense

Yes (and I see that Firenze has already been changed to Florence, so change is underway )
I like the splitting of the Florence currencies for the reasons you mention. I have been making some additions to the catalog, and modifying some existing listings in need of improvement, and have noticed (with much confusion) the continuous changes in valuation of the grosso.

For the 1565 coin you link which is currently in the catalog, I remain unsure if this coin moves to Tuscany and the Fiorino currency. This coin dates to the ducal period you explained earlier, after the integration of Siena (1557), but before the end of the Florentine Republic and initiation of the Grand Duchy (1569). So, an ambiguous period. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3086782

And for this coin, I have no idea how many denari to a testone

Edit: I have now submitted some entries under Florence of Alessandro Medici (1532-1537), so we will need to extend the date range of the currency, as you have suggested.

Is there still a pending request here?

I think we can close the topic. If something new comes up, we address it.