1970 South Korea 5 Won KM#5 (n# 3537) or KM5a (N# 9657) [solved]

Numista is the only reference I have found that list the 1970 5 Won in both KM5 and KM5a. Everything I have read indicates that KM 5 ended in 1969 and KM5a picked up in 1970. Any reference on this change? is there any way to tell the difference? The thickness does not seem to be correct either, I have measured both the 1968 and the 1971 and they are the same thickness.

Thank you in advance for any assistance

I can't answer if the #5 was also made in 1970. The are easy ways to tell the difference. There are more waves and waves between the oars on the #5. On the reverse, there is more space between KOREA and the date on the #5. I believe the weight and the thickness should be the same.

Hey Rick, I'm sorry but I can't see or measure a difference between the distance of KOREA and the date between KM# 5 and KM# 5a (at least not on the coins I have). I measured the distance between the O and the 9 because the 9 is always there for every date. I do see a difference between a 1968 coin (KM# 5) and a 1971 coin (KM# 5a): for the 1971 coin the 9 is directly under the O of KOREA while for the 1968 coin the 9 is to the left of the O. But I don't know if this is a type thing or a date thing so hard to say if this is usable for the determination between KM# 5 and KM# 5a. For instance, there's also a difference in the shape of the 1 between a 1968 and a 1966, although both KM# 5.

I do see the difference in waves especially between the oars. If that is determinative for the type, my 1970 is a KM# 5! I have a few more, including another 1970, I'll try to find them later this evening.

As well as what has been mentioned above, I am conflicted here as nobody seems to be on the same page about the specifications of KM5 and KM5a. I would expect some difference in weight given the compositions of Brass or Bronze however minute if diameter and thickness were indeed identical. Are you using precise calipers to measure diameter and thickness? Do you or anybody else actually possess both types to compare? Also, there should be a clear color difference, on pristine and well preserved examples anyway, as brass would appear more yellow while bronze would appear more reddish. Note in the attached link that reportedly 50,000,000 of the bronze (KM5) type were minted in 1970 while the 1970 Brass type (KM5a)shows none (or unknown) were minted but were ISSUED on 7/16/70. Perhaps the KM5a were included in the total mintage of 50,000,000 produced in 1970 but those breakdown numbers were never reported by the mint? I think accurate weight, diameter, and thickness are key pieces to this puzzle. I am leaning towards Numista data being correct on this issue regarding specifications.
Edit, sorry trying to get the right NGC link to load properly.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces9657.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3537.html

Sorry. It won't load. Please try this and search S. Korea 1970 5 Won

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/

Quote: "Essor Prof"​Hey Rick, I'm sorry but I can't see or measure a difference between the distance of KOREA and the date between KM# 5 and KM# 5a (at least not on the coins I have). I measured the distance between the O and the 9 because the 9 is always there for every date. I do see a difference between a 1968 coin (KM# 5) and a 1971 coin (KM# 5a): for the 1971 coin the 9 is directly under the O of KOREA while for the 1968 coin the 9 is to the left of the O. But I don't know if this is a type thing or a date thing so hard to say if this is usable for the determination between KM# 5 and KM# 5a. For instance, there's also a difference in the shape of the 1 between a 1968 and a 1966, although both KM# 5.
​
​I do see the difference in waves especially between the oars. If that is determinative for the type, my 1970 is a KM# 5! I have a few more, including another 1970, I'll try to find them later this evening.
​

​Hello René
I based my answer on the coins in Numista and those shown on NGC. The Numista images are below. The NGC images show the same, however they are also for coins from 1966 and 1972. Note also that NGC (and I assume Krause) has a listing for 1970 for both KM#5 and #5a.

Quote: "harryg"​As well as what has been mentioned above, I am conflicted here as nobody seems to be on the same page about the specifications of KM5 and KM5a. I would expect some difference in weight given the compositions of Brass or Bronze however minute if diameter and thickness were indeed identical. Are you using precise calipers to measure diameter and thickness? Do you or anybody else actually possess both types to compare? Also, there should be a clear color difference, on pristine and well preserved examples anyway, as brass would appear more yellow while bronze would appear more reddish. Note in the attached link that reportedly 50,000,000 of the bronze (KM5) type were minted in 1970 while the 1970 Brass type (KM5a)shows none (or unknown) were minted but were ISSUED on 7/16/70. Perhaps the KM5a were included in the total mintage of 50,000,000 produced in 1970 but those breakdown numbers were never reported by the mint? I think accurate weight, diameter, and thickness are key pieces to this puzzle. I am leaning towards Numista data being correct on this issue regarding specifications.
​Edit, sorry trying to get the right NGC link to load properly.
​
​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces9657.html
​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3537.html
​

​Sorry Harry. I didn't see this until after I posted my reply. I'm not too surprised if the weights are the same. Isn't that not unusual when change in composition occurs (in the age of vending machines)? The difference in densities of brasses vs. bronzes is quite small and a slight difference in thickness could accomplish that.

NGC links:
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/korea-south-5-won-km-5-1966-1970-cuid-1124062-duid-1464374
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/korea-south-5-won-km-5a-1970-1982-cuid-1125718-duid-1433722

Quote: "rsirian1"​

Quote

​​Sorry Harry. I didn't see this until after I posted my reply. I'm not too surprised if the weights are the same. Isn't that not unusual when change in composition occurs (in the age of vending machines)? The difference in densities of brasses vs. bronzes is quite small and a slight difference in thickness could accomplish that.
​
​NGC links:
​https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/korea-south-5-won-km-5-1966-1970-cuid-1124062-duid-1464374
​https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/korea-south-5-won-km-5a-1970-1982-cuid-1125718-duid-1433722

​Thanks for putting those NGC links up Rick. I have no idea why they wouldn't load properly for me. Agreed, quite small as noted in the Numista pages for both 5 and 5a and not enough for coin operated machines to notice but possibly enough to distinguish a clear difference between the two types. I Just can't accept that the 2 types are absolutely identical in every way with the composition change and why I believe this is where precision calipers and scales are essential and why I tend to favor Numista's slight variances. I believe somebody on Numista already did their homework on this.

I have what I believe to be both the 1970 bronze KM# 5 and the 1970 brass KM# 5a coins. The bronze coin weighs exactly 3.09 grams and the brass coin weighs exactly 2.95 grams. The diameter (20.4) and thickness (1.33) are the same on both coins.

The thickness of KM# 5 is not 1.48 mm as listed on the coin page.

I use a calibrated digital scale and digital calipers.

KM# 5 left KM# 5a right

Quote: "SRV5490"​I have what I believe to be both the 1970 bronze KM# 5 and the 1970 brass KM# 5a coins. The bronze coin weighs exactly 3.09 grams and the brass coin weighs exactly 2.95 grams. The diameter (20.4) and thickness (1.33) are the same on both coins.
​
​The thickness of KM# 5 is not 1.48 mm as listed on the coin page.
​
​I use a calibrated digital scale and digital calipers.
​
​KM# 5 left KM# 5a right
​
​

​Interesting. Both have the wide spacing between KOREA and the date. What do the waves on the obverse look like?

Quote: "SRV5490"​I have what I believe to be both the 1970 bronze KM# 5 and the 1970 brass KM# 5a coins. The bronze coin weighs exactly 3.09 grams and the brass coin weighs exactly 2.95 grams. The diameter (20.4) and thickness (1.33) are the same on both coins.
​
​The thickness of KM# 5 is not 1.48 mm as listed on the coin page.
​
​I use a calibrated digital scale and digital calipers.
​
​KM# 5 left KM# 5a right
​
​

​Thank you for taking the time to sort that out and fortunately you had both types and proper equipment to make the clear distinction. The color difference is even clear in the photographs as suspected. Do you mind submitting this information to correct the catalog?

Ask oklahoman, he was in SK in those days and he's still the referee, I think.

Quote: "Sjoelund"​Ask oklahoman, he was in SK in those days and he's still the referee, I think.

​Yes, still a coin referee for S. Korea and master referee for the banknote catalog so he is very busy there. I will inquire and note this thread if SRV5490 chooses not to.

I just wrote to Ben about this thread and send him pdf documentation, which I unfortunately cannot show, since numista doen't accept .pdf files?

Try to see if you find it here https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com? I just tried and here it is:

https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com/FICHES/Coree%20du%20sud/COREE%20DU%20SUD%205%20won%2032.pdf

Enjoy

Quote: "Sjoelund"​I just wrote to Ben about this thread and send him pdf documentation, which I unfortunately cannot show, since numista doen't accept .pdf files?
​
​Try to see if you find it here https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com? I just tried and here it is:
​
​https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com/FICHES/Coree%20du%20sud/COREE%20DU%20SUD%205%20won%2032.pdf
​
​Enjoy

​Thanks for the links. That is the link for KM#32. Here's the link for the KM#5 coin in question.

https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com/FICHES/Coree%20du%20sud/COREE%20DU%20SUD%205%20Won%205.pdf

Quote: "SRV5490"​I have what I believe to be both the 1970 bronze KM# 5 and the 1970 brass KM# 5a coins. The bronze coin weighs exactly 3.09 grams and the brass coin weighs exactly 2.95 grams. The diameter (20.4) and thickness (1.33) are the same on both coins.
​
​The thickness of KM# 5 is not 1.48 mm as listed on the coin page.
​
​I use a calibrated digital scale and digital calipers.
​
​KM# 5 left KM# 5a right
​
​

​Perfect! Just what I was looking for. Thank you!

Thanks to all! A lot of great information in this thread! I have my answer but will leave the thread open for a couple of days as it seem that there are some open items.
Randy

Quote: "rsirian1"​

Quote: "SRV5490"​I have what I believe to be both the 1970 bronze KM# 5 and the 1970 brass KM# 5a coins. The bronze coin weighs exactly 3.09 grams and the brass coin weighs exactly 2.95 grams. The diameter (20.4) and thickness (1.33) are the same on both coins.
​​
​​The thickness of KM# 5 is not 1.48 mm as listed on the coin page.
​​
​​I use a calibrated digital scale and digital calipers.
​​
​​KM# 5 left KM# 5a right
​​
​​

​​Interesting. Both have the wide spacing between KOREA and the date. What do the waves on the obverse look like?

I could not distinguish a difference with the waves on both coins. The bronze coin's waves are hard to see.

Quote: "rsirian1"The are easy ways to tell the difference. There are more waves and waves between the oars on the #5. On the reverse, there is more space between KOREA and the date on the #5. I believe the weight and the thickness should be the same.

​There are several differences between the 5 Won coins, but most are date related and not type related.

- Distance between date and KOREA:


Both are KM# 5a so obviously date related and not type related;

- Shape of the date digits:


The side leg on the 1968 coin is long and bowed, on the 1966 coin short and straight. But both are KM# 5 so again not type related.

- Waves around the oars:


From left to right: 1966, 1968, 1971 and 1972. The two on the left (both KM# 5) have multiple waves between the oars, especially between the first and second, second and third, and third and fourth oar. The two on the right (both KM# 5a) hardly have any waves between the oars. This looks very promising for the determination of the types but unfortunately, the 1970 coins make it inconclusive:


To the left (depending on weight and colour) KM# 5, to the right KM# 5a. Unlike the previous one, here it is the KM# 5a who has multiple waves between the oars which make the amount of waves between the oars not really type related.
Note: In reality the amount of waves are much better to see on all coins than on these pictures, unfortunately.

- Placement of the O in KOREA and the 9 in the date:


For the two KM# 5 coins on the left, the 9 is to the left of the O. For the two KM# 5a coins on the right, the 9 is practically directly under the O. This looks very promising again for the determination of the types but unfortunately, the 1970 coins make it inconclusive, again:


To the left KM# 5 (depending on weight and color), to the right KM# 5a. And here it is the opposite of the previous ones, here it is the KM# 5 where the 9 is practically directly under the O and the KM# 5a where the 9 is to the left of the O.

- Measurements:


I notice no difference in diameter nor in thickness, except for the brass 1970 coin but that one is heavily cleaned which probably causes the deviation. I strongly believe SRV5490 is right and the thickness on the coin page of KM# 5 (1.48 mm) is not correct.
Although not much, I do see a difference in weight, which confirms the measurements of SRV5490 and the data on both coin pages. Due to tolerance and wear, the difference is little so I don't know if weight is undeniably a factor to determinate the type. Fact is, all my three brass coins are lighter than my two bronze ones. A much bigger sample size probably can make it definitive.

- Color:

Like harryg said, bronze and brass should differ in colour, the bronze ones should be reddish, the brass one should be yellowish. Although the bronze 1966 coin on the coin page looks yellowish to me too (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3537.html), but maybe that's the lighting while taking the pictures. Anyway, I have three yellowish coins, including a 1970, and two reddish coins, including a 1970, so I believe I have both versions of the 1970:



Looking a bit further, I see another difference between both 1970's (after magnification):


The 7 on the left one is straight on the top left and slant at the bottom, while the one on the right is slant top left and straight at the bottom. And on the left coin the distance between 9 and 7 is smaller than on the right coin. Might this all be a determination factor too or am I seeing ghosts? Sometimes you see things which aren't there just because you want to see them and are looking too hard. On the other hand, it's undeniable that on the left coin the 9 is directly under the O of KOREA and on the right coin the 9 is to the left of the O.

Quote: "Essor Prof"​

Quote: "rsirian1"The are easy ways to tell the difference. There are more waves and waves between the oars on the #5. On the reverse, there is more space between KOREA and the date on the #5. I believe the weight and the thickness should be the same.

​​There are several difference between the 5 Won coins, but most are date related and not type related.

​Thanks for the excellent and through summation. And thanks for correcting my initial oversimplified (and incorrect) response. It seems Harry is right that the easiest way to tell a 1970 #5 from a 1970 #5a is by color especially if you have known examples of both. It would be great if the information/pictures in this post could be put in power point presentations to be added to the coin pages (hint, hint Sjoelund ).

Years ago I thought about setting it up, but because of missing images, I didn't. Now the images are there and I'm allowed to use them, I suppose, so during the week I'll make it. OK?

Quote: "Sjoelund"Now the images are there and I'm allowed to use them, I suppose,

​Ole, you know you can always use my pictures. I wish they were nicer but I can only offer what I have.

Thank you all, Numista is truly a great community!

Here is a first draft, draft because I'm not really agreeing on the colors, the darker is bronze and the lighter is brass in my opinion, but I'll bend to the majority, if needed?



I just see I missed to add the link of this thread, so I'll do that and then resubmit the document, while you decide on the colors

Quote: "Sjoelund"​Here is a first draft, draft because I'm not really agreeing on the colors, the darker is bronze and the lighter is brass in my opinion, but I'll bend to the majority, if needed?
​
​
​
​I just see I missed to add the link of this thread, so I'll do that and then resubmit the document, while you decide on the colors

​Looks good to me Ole. I don't think anybody disagrees regarding colors.

Quote: "Sjoelund"​Here is a first draft, draft because I'm not really agreeing on the colors, the darker is bronze and the lighter is brass in my opinion, but I'll bend to the majority, if needed?
​
​
​
​I just see I missed to add the link of this thread, so I'll do that and then resubmit the document, while you decide on the colors

​Looks good to me Ole. I don't think anybody disagrees regarding colors. Bronze /red / darker- Brass / yellow / lighter

I have checked against the 7 on the 1972 coin and it corresponds to the km5a from 1970!

Actually I think the "7" is the main difference, which can easily be seen.....

Who would like to make the CR? If nobody volunteers, I'll do it.

I added Essor Prof, because I used his excellent images of the two coins. Thanks

Quote: "Sjoelund"​Who would like to make the CR? If nobody volunteers, I'll do it.

​Yes, please do it. You and Essor Prof did the actual work here while we just contributed our observations and I can't think of anybody better to submit it.

OK, done in both km5 and km5a

Thanks for this agreeable interlude

Sorry Ole, I don't agree. The left one in your documentation indeed is a bit darker and the right one is a bit lighter. BUT: it's not about dark or light, it's about the color and the left one, although darker, is still yellowish, the typical color for brass, while the right one, although lighter, is still reddish/brownish, the typical color for bronze.



As you can see in the pictures above, the COLOR of the lighter 1970 is comparable with the bronze 1968 while the COLOR of the darker 1970 is comparable with the brass 1971 and 1972.
This is also consistent with the weight: the left coin in your documentation is lighter (2.87 g., consistent with the 2.95 g. on the Numista coin page for the brass KM# 5a) while the right one is heavier (3.04 g. which is also consistent with the 3.09 g. on the Numista coin page for the bronze KM# 5).

By the way, you can see the top/bottom angles of the 7 very well in the magnification, but the placement of KOREA in relation to the date you can see with the naked eye: for the left coin the 1 is to the left of the K and the 9 is to the left of the O, for the right coin the 1 in the middle of the K and the 9 is almost directly under the O:

Look at the "7" and you'll see I'm right, I hope?

For comparison below are the coins from the monnaiesetvarietes link above. km5 bronze on left, km5a brass on right.



and a gif of both showing the date is shifted to the left on the km5a brass coin.



Assuming they got the two coins ID'd correctly this agrees with Essor Prof's analysis.

Quote: "rsirian1"​For comparison below are the coins from the monnaiesetvarietes link above. km5 bronze on left, km5a brass on right.
​
​
​
​and a gif of both showing the date is shifted to the left on the km5a brass coin.
​
​
​
​Assuming they got the two coins ID'd correctly this agrees with Essor Prof's analysis.

​Interesting, but not conclusive, the 5a is "cut" on the left side, so the gif is not correctly centered. Furthermore the quality of the images is too low to determine the "7"s correctly.
Look at the "7" on the 1971 and 1972 coins


Vertical stop of top bar on the 7 and angled foot of the "7".

Just to make it clear I have made an image of the coin 1967 to see, which type of "7" was used. Horizontal foot of "7" (the top is not too clear).



I think this confirms my way of seeing things, no?

and the 10 won 1970 km6 km6a, see here: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic113226.html

I need help, since I don't know if the images are correct....

I agree it's not conclusive and the resolution of the pictures is not high enough to say anything about the 7's. I do think it shows that the date is shifted to the left for the 5a-brass based on the vertical red lines at least for these 2 coins. My opinion at the moment is there is not conclusive evidence to make any positive universal statement about how to distinguish them visually that we're sure will hold for all the coins minted in 1970. Sometimes it's better to say nothing than to make a low confidence guess based on limited data.

Well, if else If nothing else, I hope the community appreciates all the work, time, effort, and research it takes to contribute to the catalog. Next question. What is considered enough data?

Quote: "harryg" What is considered enough data?

​Well...maybe at a minimum when everybody agrees on the same answer?

I've cancelled the CR, since I want us to agree on this subject, and I'll go for the majority opinion and change the documentation accordingly.

I think that's wise. I still like to see a picture of your 5 won 1970 and the weight of your 10 won 1970.

My 5 won coin from my collection

W 3.15 D 20.38

The 10 won coin in the 10 won thread

KM5 (88% Cu) was produced from July 1966 to July 1970.  

Starting in July 1970 they began striking KM5a (65% Cu).

 

Weight is different, thickness should be the same.

 

All of this is well documented in my book, South Korean Coins in the Era of Development, and now my new book, A Price Guide for Korean Coins.

 

Here are the references:
 

Korea Minting and Security Printing Corporation, Korea Minting and Security Printing Corporation 40-Year History [韓國造幣公社四十年史 /한국조폐공사40년사 ], (Daejeon: KSPMC, 1991) 589. 

 

“From the 16th New Five-Won, 10-Won Coins Issued [16일부터 새鑄貨(주화)발행 5원과 10원짜리],” Kyonghyang Shinmun, 10 July 1970, p. 4.

 

Also, NGC has now recognized varieties of the 1969 Five-Won: