I'm sure you've seen the Tokens section, and it's flooded with entries of tokens. Although tokens look like coins, they're not coins at all. In fact, they're not in the same category.
After witnessing new entries of tokens everyday, including private issues (arcade tokens, transit tokens), mint collector coins (Monnaie de Paris), and a bunch of odd tokens, some being obvious modern copies, I feel that we get rid of not only the tokens section, but all the token entries too.
This is what I think. Because Fantasy issues are in the catalogues and they are both coins and tokens, I feel that, like many have proposed, that we begin a Fantasy Issues section. This will end the decision of having a fantasy issue in either the country it was issued or the tokens section. And I fully support getting rid of all the tokens that are not fantasy issues because we have over 2500 entries, almost all unverified.
What do you think?
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I think it should stay. BUT the number of tokens should not be added into the total different coins on this site. That number should be coins only.
Right now there are 32,936 coins and if you said 2,500 token the number should be 30,436.
Yeah that is fair! NOT! But why don't we have a bank notes section and stamp section?
I'm sorry but some people have worked hard on entering their tokens. I have a few but I don't collect them. It is not a problem to keep them and I'm sure some people wouldn't mind helping by suggest ways of organising.
I would like to see a fantasy section for all the fraudulent private issues, restrikes and other assorted junk. If people are happy collecting them it's fine but let's not do ourselves a disservice by pretending they are coins or have any numismatic value. They are attractive looking curios, nothing more.
Tokens needs to be redifined as a category. It makes no sense to me to categorise the widely collected and very high value Conder Tokens, 17 century trade tokens and Leprosarium coinage alongside transit tokens and arcade tokens. The US state tax tokens could arguably be included as could the 18th and 19th century gaming pieces Political tokens from the "To Hannover" issues to modern presdiential issues could merit a separate category.
I wouldn't delete the tokens section entirely but I would certainly divide it into modern and older. The Leprosarium coinage should not be included as tokens in any case, they are legal tender and have a valid denomination. NGC list them as a region of the mother country which makes more sense than listing coins which in many cases are worth many hundreds of dollars in the same category as casino tokens.
Did you know that people collect teabags? No, I'm not making it up, they have a seperate section at ColNect for them!
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
So my spittles quartos and upper Canada penny & 1/2 penny tokens, nova scotia half penny etc same as the ships colonies and commerce and trade and navigation penny's and stivers do they count as conders ? As they did circulate as currency
Quote: Mark240590So my spittles quartos and upper Canada penny & 1/2 penny tokens, nova scotia half penny etc same as the ships colonies and commerce and trade and navigation penny's and stivers do they count as conders ? As they did circulate as currency
No mate, Conder Tokens are the coins struck by English traders during the 18th century in response to a crippling currency shortage, which wasn't addressed until the Soho Mint started to mass produce the "cartwheel" coins we love.
They get their name from an early collector who produced the first catalog of them. They are rather special little beasts in that they have defied the stagnation of the coin market and risen quite dramaitically since the 1970's when you could buy them for around 35p each. They now average $20 - $30. I had dozens of them, wish I'd kept them.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
I follow Smartone that the tokens section is getting a mess, but I think we should keep the section intact. Following Phil, I believe that implementing some categorization would help. Kind of a 'token type' field.
Just to get an idea of what I mean:
1. Tokens (proper): an item representing currency, but aimed at a very limited range of use, usually one product only (transport, gas, telephone, gambling, vending machine, entertainment center, temple token).
2. Bank tokens: Intended for general circulation, like real money, and issued under governmental supervision, but not by the government (e.g. the Bank of Upper Canada tokens, Amsterdam 700 tokens, or the Curaçao token which is my avatar picture). Even very orthodox coin collectors will like those. In fact, most of these tokens are categorized among the coins on Numista.
3. Community tokens: Intended as circulation money within a defined community (Leper colony tokens, Ghetto tokens, Spitzbergen money).
4. Fantasy coins: non-existing countries or currencies
5. Replicas: Replicas of real coins (fake coins, as you wish)
6. Collectibles: coin-like objects meant for collecting only because of their relation with a place or event of interest (Shell tokens, soccer tokens, souvenir tokens, commemorative tokens)
In fact why don't we just start a whole new section on Numista with those subcategories. I feel that coins with a KM#Tn (Bank tokens) should stay in the respective countries because they are collectable enough, like ArnoV said.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
In fact why don't we just start a whole new section on Numista with those subcategories. I feel that coins with a KM#Tn (Bank tokens) should stay in the respective countries because they are collectable enough, like ArnoV said.
Those are really well thought out definitions.
I'm not much of a coin snob, well maybe just a little, but I don't look down on anyone else's collecting interests. Mine are just different. What I find cumbersome with the present system is that if you include the more collectable token types in your search the database doesn't distinguish between types. It wouldn't be an issue at all if tokens were displayed as the last item in a country list and at the end of people's swap list. I'm guessing that most people scroll past them to get to the coins.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Quote: ArnoVI follow Smartone that the tokens section is getting a mess, but I think we should keep the section intact. Following Phil, I believe that implementing some categorization would help. Kind of a 'token type' field.
Just to get an idea of what I mean:
1. Tokens (proper): an item representing currency, but aimed at a very limited range of use, usually one product only (transport, gas, telephone, gambling, vending machine, entertainment center, temple token).
2. Bank tokens: Intended for general circulation, like real money, and issued under governmental supervision, but not by the government (e.g. the Bank of Upper Canada tokens, Amsterdam 700 tokens, or the Curaçao token which is my avatar picture). Even very orthodox coin collectors will like those. In fact, most of these tokens are categorized among the coins on Numista.
3. Community tokens: Intended as circulation money within a defined community (Leper colony tokens, Ghetto tokens, Spitzbergen money).
4. Fantasy coins: non-existing countries or currencies
5. Replicas: Replicas of real coins (fake coins, as you wish)
6. Collectibles: coin-like objects meant for collecting only because of their relation with a place or event of interest (Shell tokens, soccer tokens, souvenir tokens, commemorative tokens)
Or something like that.
I agree with you, but I don't think Xavier will do anything about it. When was the last time there was a forum discussion that suggested something for Numista and Xavier implemented it? I mean no offense to Xavier, but as far as know, that never happened (it is his own website, so he can do whatever he wants).
Everyone's forgetting about the medallion section, which I'd like to see included under the "tokens" section. I found a nice token site that has a whole bunch http://tokencatalog.com/index.php. People's forgetting the site is called Numista and according to the definition it means :: "the study or collection of coins, tokens, and paper money and sometimes related objects (as medals) "according to Merriam Webster. So just because someone's preference of what a coin is or should be doesn't make it OK to part with the token section. It's on here for a reason obviously. I do agree about the adding banknotes and that would fit nicely with the Numista theme. A lot of people only collect coinage authorized by government approval for payment but I'm sure they have a few tokens accumulated along the way. We all do, and it's nice to be able to identify them without having to leave the site in search of info on them. The token section may be a mess and not tended to as well as other sections, but it comes in handy every once in a while. Especially for those who can't tell the difference between currency and token or else they may never know this. This isn't intended to discourage other's proposals I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on the subject from another perspective and hope it's heard respectively. I would hate to see the token section go but I would love to see it a little bit more systematic.
Too many mine fields everyone has their own opinion.. I've seen loads of "pears soap" stamped pennies and work house pennies etc they should be categorised as private tokens but currency tokens (the type I collect in with my colonial stuff) like trade and navigation Stivers and pennies, ships, colonies and commerce etc should remain with their respective country as money.
You know, this is so confusing. Why don't we get rid of all tokens that couldn't be used as money, keep the ones that were with their countries and get over with it?
Quote: dptashnyYou know, this is so confusing. Why don't we get rid of all tokens that couldn't be used as money, keep the ones that were with their countries and get over with it?
That's pretty much what I'm saying, thank you!
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I thought they are called Local Coins …. Coins that are issued for usage in a city or small region within a country. They circulate alongside the coins of the country. Their goal is usually to support the local economy.
They are exonumia, even though they circulated for limited periods of time.
Aidan.
brismike
I thought they are called Local Coins …. Coins that are issued for usage in a city or small region within a country. They circulate alongside the coins of the country. Their goal is usually to support the local economy.
Why open 13 years old thread? And yes, they are local coins, and as such are within coin category.
I found it strange that these local coins were showing up in our main Canada issuer. Considering how these were only valid within the cities they were issued in, should these all be filed under their own respective city issuers?
Why open 13 years old thread? And yes, they are local coins, and as such are within coin category.
I found it strange that these local coins were showing up in our main Canada issuer. Considering how these were only valid within the cities they were issued in, should these all be filed under their own respective city issuers?
We do not have exonumia anymore. We have coins (including local coins), tokens and medals.
Under coins there is a specific subsections for coins that only circulated locally, often for restricted periods of time. If you think there are items in error in that section and they should be moved, please make a modification request and motivate why … I taught my kids that “because” is not a reason.
Just call me Bram
No new swaps for the moment, still too many half-ongoing swaps to clean up!
Why open 13 years old thread? And yes, they are local coins, and as such are within coin category.
I found it strange that these local coins were showing up in our main Canada issuer. Considering how these were only valid within the cities they were issued in, should these all be filed under their own respective city issuers?
They should be under ‘Exonumia’.
Aidan.
In my own collection, I consider these trade tokens and file them with the rest of my tokens; however, they do fit Numista's definition of local coins.
My only issue with these being under Canada is that these were meant to be used in the individual cities that issued them, and not throughout the entirety of Canada. If these did have their own issuers, you wouldn't see them under the main part of Canada, which would at least solve some of this issue. Andddddd I actually made a thread about this over four years ago, so I'll give that a bump and see if it gets any attraction. It was made in the referee forum, so I'll also request it to be moved to the coin catalogue so everyone can view it. :)
Hi all, this thread was made when the exonumia category had not yet existed in the catalog, and there was only an unorganized “tokens” catch-all page. With the recent reorganization, this years-old topic no longer serves its original purpose and I have marked it solved. The discussion of token categories should be continued in another thread.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
They are (were) coins much more than myriad of NCLTs flooding the coin section!
Definitely NOT coins - but local tokens.
Aidan.
Hey Aidan, It's evident that you have some very strong feelings on that topic so I think it's time for you to accept that numismatics can't be easily divided into sections. All items fall onto a spectrum from Coin to Exonumia. On the coin side of this you obviously have standard circulation coins and circulating commemoratives. And on the Exonumia side we have stuff like medals who carry no transactional value at all.
Almost everything else is in between this, and drawing a clear line is impossible.
Things like Non-circulation coins are “officially" still coins, but are evidently not true items of everyday transactions and feel more like just bullion rounds or medals (or even jewelry in case of these strange sculptural “coins”.) N#184132 N#425640
Notgeld and emergency money is right in the gray area, especially when local private companies made them. But there are also enough that were issued by the local authorities. N#69130 N#337993
Trade tokens as well, they were still more coin than exonumia, but were also clearly differnet from both N#386073 N#60588
Items like Prisoner tokens or the Polish Ghetto Mark are still coins. They had a value and circulated in their confined spaces, but they are also not the same as the standard coins of their home nations at the time. N#311623 N#125559
And the Local coins you're so upset about are more coin like than many other items of exonumia, but they also aren't quite like standard coins yes. They basically sit perfectly in the middle of that spectrum! So please accept that this stuff isn't black and white and cannot be separated with a clear line. You may lot like this, you may not agree with it, but that is the reality. So please stop annoying people in this thread, i think you've made your stance very clear at this point.
