It seems this topic needs raising again as the fundamental problem has still not been resolved. The last request was rejected but it appears that the issue was not fully appreciated. The currency systems in Israel between 1948 and 1980 were
1000 Mils = 1 Lirah/Pound (1948-1949)
1000 Prutot = 1 Lirah/Pound (1949-1960)
100 Agorot = 1 Lirah (1960-1980)
However, we have
due to the replacement of the word "Palestine" with "Israel" on the 1952 series of notes. Note that the word "Pound" did not appear on any notes after this series.
As a consequence of this split in 1952, we have two separate pages for the same types of coins, namely these two: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces2033.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces111849.html
for the 50 prutot KM#13 and these two: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces2049.html https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces111848.html
for the 100 prutot KM#14. My primary request is the merger of the 1949-1952 and 1952-1960 currencies. These pairs of pages can then be merged.
We also have the agorot coins still listed in the 1952-1960 currency. In the previous thread, oynbcn stated that they had requested these coins be moved. Either those requests have been rejected or ignored. I am going to message the referee and highlight this thread in the hope that this can be fixed.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
This is some weird problem. I see why you want to merge, currency is still pound and coin pages could be merged as well.
Problem is that they actually are separate currencies. Israeli pound even has its own ISO code.
In my humble opinion, Israeli government took advantage of curency similarities (or even made it that way) in order to save money and lawfully transfered old coins (since there was nothing to change on them) from old currency to new one. Best option would be finding exact law on that matter. In result, what was once lauded as precise and smooth transfer of one currency into another becomes a problem for a coin database 70 years later, which simply did not anticipate how smooth such transition can be.
While merger is quick and easy solution, it is not rhe correct one. I will raise the problem on the admin meeting, so Xavier can adress that issue, (One coin can be part of more currencies) so this can solved properly.
Kind regards,
Jarek
Catalogue administrator
Status changed to Started(Jarcek, 5 Aug 2021, 09:26)
Quote: "Jarcek"Problem is that they actually are separate currencies. Israeli pound even has its own ISO code.
The thing is - are they really two different currencies? They seem to have been "exchanged" by the rate 1:1, the coins remained the same and continued to circulate as if nothing happened. Of course the banknotes changed in layout, since the issuing bank changed. The name of the currency changed; Palestine pound --> Israeli pound. But I mean, basically it's still "Pound", the country name is only added to not be confused with the Egyptian pound, the Maltese pound, the Pound Sterling, or any other pound. And a layout change isn't the same as a currency change, nor is a name change of the country.
We can't really on the ISO codes either, since the first edition of ISO 4217 was published in 1978.
For catalog consistency sake, the Israeli pound is good as it is listed: 1927-48 and 1952-60. Here's why.
The 1927-48 Pound is listed as 1000 Mils = 1 Pound, while the 1952-60 Pound is listed as 1000 Prutot = 1 Pound.
A Mil is the same as a Pruta in the first Pound and the Prutot is the same amount in the second Pound as it was in the first Pound, so I see Ceh's point, of merging the two together to make one Pound from 1927-60. But, that has not been the case for other nation's currencies.
For Egypt, which just underwent a catalog update, there are two Pounds - 1834-1916 and 1917-date.
The 1834-1916 Pound is listed as 1 Pound = 100 Piastres = 4000 Paras, while the 1916-date pound is listed as 1 Pound = 100 Piastres = 1000 Milliemes. In this case, 4000 Paras = 1000 Milliemes, so in truth, the currency never changed, just the name. But the catalog administrators decided to split it into two currencies.
If you are going to differentiate the values of the Egyptian Pound, then you must do the same with the Israeli Pound.
There are several problems with your argument. First, we are talking about the Israeli currencies, not the Palestinian, so we can put to one side the pre-1948 pound. Second, there is a gap in your proposal between 1948 and 1952. Third, the prutah was introduced in 1949, not 1952. Fourth, I am not proposing to merge 1948-1960, rather 1949-1960, the period during which the only subdivision of the lira (pound) was the prutah. This is completely alligned with the way Egypt has been arranged, with new currencies when the subdivisions change.
To be clear, the proposal is
1000 Mils = 1 Lirah/Pound (1948-1949)
1000 Prutah = 1 Lirah/Pound (1949-1960)
100 Agorot = 1 Lirah (1960-1980)
The earlier version had "prutot" but it seems "prutah" is the correct plural.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "ceh2019"There are several problems with your argument. First, we are talking about the Israeli currencies, not the Palestinian, so we can put to one side the pre-1948 pound. Second, there is a gap in your proposal between 1948 and 1952. Third, the prutah was introduced in 1949, not 1952. Fourth, I am not proposing to merge 1948-1960, rather 1949-1960, the period during which the only subdivision of the lira (pound) was the prutah. This is completely alligned with the way Egypt has been arranged, with new currencies when the subdivisions change.
To be clear, the proposal is
1000 Mils = 1 Lirah/Pound (1948-1949)
1000 Prutah = 1 Lirah/Pound (1949-1960)
100 Agorot = 1 Lirah (1960-1980)
The earlier version had "prutot" but it seems "prutah" is the correct plural.
After some more investigation, I agree with your proposal. You have the proper division of the Pound.
This request has been marked as started for quite a while now. Is more clarification needed as to what changes are required and why? Forgive me if this seems impatient but this issue has rumbled on for a long time now, this not being the first thread to raise it.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Another month has passed and still nothing. If you think there's no problem, just look at the first few coins when sorted by face value.
I know this isn't deliberately messed up but it won't take much to fix it, just implement the currencies as set out in this thread, 1000 Mils = 1 Lirah/Pound (1948-1949)
1000 Prutah = 1 Lirah/Pound (1949-1960)
100 Agorot = 1 Lirah (1960-1980)
then the coins which are split without reason can be recombined, all the coins can be put in their correct currencies and everything will be fine.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Many thanks. I've requested the moves needed for the coins. Then we can set about tidying up those that were split. I suspect there may be a few other issues to decide (like which version of the pound/lirah to put some of the banknotes in) but this is already going to make a big difference.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
No, of course not. I'm proposing merging the two entries for KM#13.1 (50 prutah: page 1 and page 2) and KM#14 (100 prutah, page 1 and page 2). These were split either side of 1952, a division which has now been removed. In many ways, it was the existence of these splits that started off this whole discussion.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "ceh2019"No, of course not. I'm proposing merging the two entries for KM#13.1 (50 prutah: page 1 and page 2) and KM#14 (100 prutah, page 1 and page 2). These were split either side of 1952, a division which has now been removed. In many ways, it was the existence of these splits that started off this whole discussion.
That's what I asked: why did you insist that the two different currencies get merged? You can merge coins that span two currencies perfectly well. That's what is being done with banknotes anyway.
Quote: "stratocaster"That's what I asked: why did you insist that the two different currencies get merged? You can merge coins that span two currencies perfectly well. That's what is being done with banknotes anyway.
I have a horrible feeling we're talking at cross-purposes. Which two "different currencies" are you talking about? I asked that an unjustified split in 1952, halfway through the lira/prutah currency, be removed. That's now been done, meaning that the 50 and 100 prutah coins, that should never have been split in the the first place, can be recombined.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Status changed to Done(Jarcek, 25 Dec 2021, 16:40)
