Finer granularity for Access tokens, Deposit tokens, Business tokens [solved]

Hello,

I wonder whether we should have a finer granularity for some of the current types of exonumia.
For example:

• Access tokens could be divided into laundry tokens, swimming pool tokens, toilet tokens, etc.
  
• Deposit tokens could be divided into shopping cart tokens, etc.
  
• Business tokens could be divided into restaurant tokens, milk tokens, beer tokens, etc.
  

On one hand it would be interesting to better differentiate, so that, for example, milk tokens could be clearly identified as such and they could be searchable. On the other hand, we may end up with hundreds of types (including some with only very few tokens) and it would be anyway impossible to be exhaustive.

Pleas share your thoughts, so we can see whether we can agree on a solution.

Perhaps there should be a minimum number of entries before it could be added as a new type.

For example, if there was only 50 varieties of toilet tokens, they would stay under access tokens. But if there were 1,000+ varieties only then it would warrant a new type.

This would be better suited for a large amount of certain token variety like what Some_Nerd said this would declutter some of the overpopulated sections and make it easier to search for the token you want.

Quote: "Xavier"​Hello,
​
​I wonder whether we should have a finer granularity for some of the current types of exonumia.
​For example:
​

• Access tokens could be divided into laundry tokens, swimming pool tokens, toilet tokens, etc.
  ​
  
• Deposit tokens could be divided into shopping cart tokens, etc.
  ​
  
• Business tokens could be divided into restaurant tokens, milk tokens, beer tokens, etc.
  ​
  

​
​On one hand it would be interesting to better differentiate, so that, for example, milk tokens could be clearly identified as such and they could be searchable. On the other hand, we may end up with hundreds of types (including some with only very few tokens) and it would be anyway impossible to be exhaustive.
​
​Pleas share your thoughts, so we can see whether we can agree on a solution.

​
Hi

"Some_Nerd
I guess you should have more Exonumia in your collection (as may be seen publicly), when you say number 1.000 (even if it is just for vantage point). If you do not have the adequate type drop down menu, then next approach would be to name the coins exactly the same in first part of the name e.g. "Laundry Token - etc...". This is a weak process as 100 people will write different things. So you end up with a bunch of names, which are hard to recognize and organize after. And it is also a bigger hassle for referees.

"Xavier
I agree with better granulation (and all proposals above), but should probably be gradual, possibly agreed by community. At the same time, we need to write down definitions for each currency and type in Numisdoc. There are already some entries in Numisdoc, which could be joined in "Exunomia thread" (e.g. https://en.numista.com/numisdoc/canadian-local-trade-tokens-184.html).

Some more (old/new) proposals:
Souvenir Medals - New year tokens (many from Austria and Germany, also some with awful quality from Greece)
=> Maybe "Souvenir Medals" should be renamed in "Souvenir Medals and Tokens".
=> All pieces which name includes string "New Year Lucky Token" are candidates for this type (a job for robot).

Business tokens - Pharmacy tokens (many from Germany)
=> All pieces which name includes string "Pharmacy Token" or have a string *Apotheke* somewhere in the lettering, are candidates for this type (a job for robot).

Deposit tokens - Tool tokens (many from Yugoslavia, really hard to get)

Miscellaneous token - Masonic tokens (what happened to these BTW?)
Miscellaneous token - Encased tokens
Miscellaneous token - Wooden nickles (though intended use may be various)

Some types should probably have its own group just within the specific Country (I may be wrong), less mistakes when adding something new.
Event tokens - "Mardi gras tokens" (only in US)
??? (where to put them and if? I still do not get them entirely) - "Local Florijn Tokens" (only in Netherlands)
??? (where to put them?) - "Canadian Local Dollars" (only in Canada)
??? (where to put them?) -"Werth-Marke" or "Wert-Marke" (only in Germany) - do they go into the German Notgeld, but in special section?

And maybe one day:
Business tokens - Exploder tokens (only in US) (https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_865872)
Business tokens - Lumber tokens (only in US)
Fantasy Items - Horoscope tokens ("Zodiac tokens"?) - just a proposal, though its a little distant one...

In Exunomia search / collection view / etc, currently we have only "Country & Currency", I guess for a better layout the third level should also be included "Country & Currency & Type" e.g. Germany / Access tokens / Laundry tokens. At least within the field "Sort by", before removing duds.

I also firmly believe, we should have local administrators for Exonumia, as locals know much better how to organize pieces, where they come from. Check the number of current entries 65k, see TokenCatalog with 593410 entries. Coins database shall probably be dwarfed by the Exonumia in a decade.

LP

I think a finer granularity would be good, especially for categories that have a huge number of tokens.

I see some issues with categories for trade tokens: there are "beer" tokens, "beer and wine" tokens, "drink" tokens, "bar" tokens, "une consommation", etc. Creating a category for every single token scope and combination of scopes and still being able to organise them logically would be difficult. Maybe we can find some broader groups:

- Eating and drinking tokens (for restaurant, bar, cafe, canteen, etc)
- Merchandise tokens (for groceries, bread, milk, etc)
- Service tokens (shave, car service, grain milling, etc)
- Insurance tokens (?)
- Pharmacy tokens (?)

I am not sure about these categories, but something along these lines.

I think what would help more here is to activate the field for "issuing entity" like for banknotes, and maybe make it searchable and sortable.

For access tokens I think the categories are more limited, so maybe we could add them individually:
- laundry
- library
- museum
- swimming pool
- theatre (?)
- toilet
- sports centre
- zoo
- others (like "adult admission", or maybe brothels could also be moved here, although brothel tokens sometimes say "one dance", which is more of a service)

Hello.
Answering the title question, I would confidently answer that yes, we should detail these types of tokens. And not only in this category of tokens. And different types of tokens are needed for some countries, but not needed for others (beer and pharmacy tokens in Germany, for example, deserve separate types). And some unique types should be kept for only one country (US Mardi, for example).

On the other hand, I would also like to have more general types. For example, we have a lot of automatic tokens ("currency"), but we do not know the purpose of these tokens. And I would like to be able to put this in the "Automatic tokens" type.

Quote: "stratocaster"​I think a finer granularity would be good, especially for categories that have a huge number of tokens.
​
​I see some issues with categories for trade tokens: there are "beer" tokens, "beer and wine" tokens, "drink" tokens, "bar" tokens, "une consommation", etc. Creating a category for every single token scope and combination of scopes and still being able to organise them logically would be difficult. Maybe we can find some broader groups:
​
​- Eating and drinking tokens (for restaurant, bar, cafe, canteen, etc)
​- Merchandise tokens (for groceries, bread, milk, etc)
​- Service tokens (shave, car service, grain milling, etc)
​- Insurance tokens (?)
​- Pharmacy tokens (?)
​​
​For access tokens I think the categories are more limited, so maybe we could add them individually:
​- library
​- zoo

​Hi
I would say that "zoo" tokens are more like a sub-type of tourist tokens.
Not sure about library, can you add some links?
Some tokens are nevertheless so specific, that we do not need to wait for a huge number being added, eg. Tool tokens.
Logical groups should be clustered by the type eg. "car wash tokens". Other materiel can be organized in each main group under the "other tokens", eg. Automatic tokens/Other Automatic Tokens. "Other" being a prefix of such sub-types in every main group and is added at request automatically if user does not set more specific value at this level. This way it will be more easy to distinguish those with "not quite adequate" data entries.
LP

I think more types would definitely be nice; however, only if we keep make sure to base those types off their intended uses.

Mardi Gras and New Year are both events, so I imagine their tokens should not have their own types. And encased coins are typical Advertisment tokens, so I'd think these should also not have their own type (although a new tag for these pieces might work).

And I would agree with some 'Other' groups--it would help break up the list of Miscellaneous tokens, which might make it easier to assign them all somewhere else.

Quote: "mikimaus"​​​??? (where to put them and if? I still do not get them entirely) - "Local Florijn Tokens" (only in Netherlands)
​??? (where to put them?) - "Canadian Local Dollars" (only in Canada)

​
And these would be 'Local administration tokens' (all Canadian Local dollars have been moved there). And I think the best divisions here would be in the issuer list, by city; however, those would be some very long lists.

Mostly following the non-paper exonumia side:

For banknotes, new additions could include:

• Bullion notes
  
• Propoganda notes
  

Confinement vouchers could be split into:

• Internment or prison vouchers
  
• Leper colony vouchers
  

Trade vouchers could be split into:

• Business vouchers
  
• Local administration notes
  
• Taxation vouchers
  

Ration coupons could be split into:

• Export coupons
  
• Food ration coupons
  
• Fuel coupons
  

Quote: "Sulfur"​And these would be 'Local administration tokens' (all Canadian Local dollars have been moved there). And I think the best divisions here would be in the issuer list, by city; however, those would be some very long lists.

​Do you really see common sense in creating a huge number of types for cities (with a small amount of coins for each city)? But at the same time, you can let all the "events" in Mardi Gras drown if you combine them (a huge array of tokens, not yet added even to Numista)?

Quote: "Cyrillius"​​​Do you really see common sense in creating a huge number of types for cities (with a small amount of coins for each city)? But at the same time, you can let all the "events" in Mardi Gras drown if you combine them (a huge array of tokens, not yet added even to Numista)?

​I did not propose creating new types for the individual cities, no--all these would stay under the type "Local administration tokens".

Specifically looking at the Canadian Local dollars, these were tokens valid in only one city, approved by the local administration. If we could get an issuer along the lines of "Canadian cities", we could give the individual cities their own issuers.

The Mardis Gras tokens--while it may be a large catagory--are still tokens for a specific event, so I do not think they would work as their own token type. Mardi Gras is also not a geographical area, so making a division in the issuer section would not work. The differenciation could work in the Commemorated Event field though.

Its an ample time to create a special group/team of token referees, who would probably be better off in making optimal proposals for the best way forward.
LP

Quote: "mikimaus"​I would say that "zoo" tokens are more like a sub-type of tourist tokens.
​Not sure about library, can you add some links

Some zoo tokens are tourist souvenirs:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia68841.html

But there are many zoo access tokens:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia259069.html
​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia73319.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia146223.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia199368.html

Library tokens are indeed obscure so maybe could go in the "others" section. Some are also related to services provided by the library:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia137102.html

Quote: "Sulfur"I think more types would definitely be nice; however, only if we keep make sure to base those types off their intended uses.

I second what Sulfur said here. This was the rationale I tried to follow with the initial types.

Following a suggestion from a discussion with Cyrillius, we should also consider the addition of two categories:

- Apothecary weights under Utility tokens:
https://archive.org/details/CONA2019FebruaryPresentation/page/n11/mode/2up

- there are some charity tokens:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia133245.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia20315.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia38400.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia23616.html
I am not sure of their history. Some were issued by companies it seems, so could go under Business tokens, some by NGOs. But maybe we could also have a category for Charity tokens under Miscellaneous tokens?

Quote: "stratocaster"​Following a suggestion from a discussion with Cyrillius, we should also consider the addition of two categories:
​
​- Apothecary weights under Utility tokens:
​

​If you must, it would be Apothecaries’ Weights.
https://finds.org.uk/counties/findsrecordingguides/apothecaries-weights/

Please add "Deposit tokens - Tool tokens", different countries.

Here are some (rare) examples:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia184560.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia202182.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia194378.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia272248.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia272252.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia272250.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia179602.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia179600.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia267817.html

LP