About circulating or not coins at Uruguay.

As referee I often receive requests to modify Uruguayan coins, to change type "Circulating commemorative coin" to "Non-circulating coin".

Most times I reply the requests, with an explanation why they show as circulating commemorative instead of non-circulating, so I will make a resume of reasons, so all can understand and I don't need to write once and again the facts and explanations.

Every country decides when, how and what coins to issue, and at last they decide the type of coin.

At Uruguay, ALL the coins are circulating.

What means "circulating"? Circulating implies a coin is valid for payments, so is money. A coin will be circulating (legal tender, valid, etc.) till it is demonetized. The fact a coin would have a long or short time from issued till demonetized does not affect the type of coin; not even if the coin is demonetized at same time of issued, or even before.

Law power, government, institutions, or even individuals can request the creation of a commemorative coin, introducing the reasons and arguments to back the creation of desired coin, but at end the Legislative power is the one who authorizes or denies the creation of the coin. The coins will have a face value, symbols representing the country (images or legends), and on every creating coin law, is stated they will have legal tender value, and grants to Central Bank of Uruguay the authority to create (within the general terms stated in each law), put into circulation, and demonetize, and later selling the remains of unissued coins, when and how Central Bank considers the best.

Specifically, on silver and gold coins, is very common Central Bank demonetize them on the same moment, a few later, or even before the issuing act. The reasons usually is "to preserve their conservation as numismatic products".

So far, is clear "commemorative" and "circulating"are not opposite categories, so one does not mean the other.

Other fact is that the quantity of coins minted does not determine the type of the coin (always keeping in mind that at Uruguay ALL coins are created as circulating).

Most of Uruguayan silver coins, minted in small quantities, on the last 10 years were issued and demonetized nearly at the same moment, but there are exceptions.

500 Pesos Uruguayos issue date 2006, Salto City anniversary, KM# 133 (issued 10,000 pieces), and 1000 Pesos Uruguayos issue date 2011, KM# 140 (issued 5,000 pieces), were demonetized on September 2019, so they were circulating for 13 and 8 years, respectively.

In past, 10 Pesos 1961, KM# 43, mintage 3,000,000 circulated till 1964, and 1000 Pesos 1969, KM# 55, mintage 500,000 circulated till 1972.

Closer, on 2000, 250 Pesos KM# 117, mintage 8,000 circulated till 2006, and please keep in mind it was part of the "Iberoamerican Series" minted for several Latin America countries, Spain and Portugal. This is really commemorative, but also was circulating.

Now, let's review:
Silver (and gold) Uruguayan coins:
- are created as commemorative? Yes, they are.
- are minted in very small quantities? Yes, usually they are.
- are created as circulating coins? Yes. Legislative Power considers (not a written rule), that if a coin is not created as legal tender, therefore as circulating, then it's not a coin, should not show a face value, and would be a medal.
- are created for numismatic purposes? No, they are created to commemorate events, or honor persons, but they are created with numismatic spirit, therefore they only circulate for short time, if any, to preserve their conservation.
- should be considered as non circulating coins? Absolutely not. They are created as circulating, and demonetized. The fact that sometimes the demonetization occurs at same time as issuing, and even before does not affect the type of coin.

(Will review this later, and mos possible will edit to explain better whenever possible)

If you can't get a coin for face value from an official source like bank/postoffice it's a non circulating numismatic product (many modern commemoratives aka. NCLTs (non circulating legal tender) and all bullion coins). If you can get it at face as far as I think is practice on Numista puts it as circulating even if it's very unlikely to find i the wild (for example the Japanese bi-metallic 500 yen etc.). Then there are the circulating commemoratives in the literal sense of the word (like US quarter series, 2€ CCs etc.).

Legal tender doesn't necessary have to do anything with circulating it is what is accepted to pay debts with. An example if you want to pay your groceries with 500 1 cent coins that amount of otherwise perfectly legal tender coins is not legal tender and the cashier is not legally obliged to except your payment in this way (of course these laws vary by country). There are a couple more instances but I can't get them of the tip of my tongue.

Quote: "Idolenz"​If you can't get a coin for face value from an official source like bank/postoffice it's a non circulating numismatic product (many modern commemoratives aka. NCLTs (non circulating legal tender) and all bullion coins). If you can get it at face as far as I think is practice on Numista puts it as circulating even if it's very unlikely to find i the wild (for example the Japanese bi-metallic 500 yen etc.). Then there are the circulating commemoratives in the literal sense of the word (like US quarter series, 2€ CCs etc.).
​
​Legal tender doesn't necessary have to do anything with circulating it is what is accepted to pay debts with. An example if you want to pay your groceries with 500 1 cent coins that amount of otherwise perfectly legal tender coins is not legal tender and the cashier is not legally obliged to except your payment in this way (of course these laws vary by country). There are a couple more instances but I can't get them of the tip of my tongue.

​Very good points Idolenz, will help me to edit my original post an make it more accurate.

At Uruguay post offices doesn't provide money, but there are several dependencies of the official banks all over the country, and also there are several private banks, and financial institutions that would provide money, mainly fractional cash.

Now, about the examples I gave, the 2 silver coins that were demonetized on 2019 ($ 500 issued on 2006 and $ 1000 issued on 2011), they could be exchanged for same value of other banknotes/coins at the Central Bank of Uruguay, and previous request on all the official and private banks (different from "normal" coins that were available on all the bank cashiers). And the other coins, that were demonetized when issued, or before, you can "buy" them for its face value at Central Bank. Difference to non-demonetized coins is that you just go to cash, and ask for them and are given freely, same as when you ask for fractional coins. The late demonetized coins, you ask for them, and bank gives an invoice, but price is exactly the face value. The older demonetized coins, specially those with old currencies ("old" Pesos, or Nuevos Pesos) are sold as numismatic items, with prices based on USD exchange and value of silver or gold.

At Uruguay, all non-demonetized coins/banknotes are valid, and must be accepted for payments, public or private. Of course, these coins are usually kept by numismatists or other people, cause they know their value will raise with time, but the fact they nearly never are used for payments doesn't mean they are not valid/legal/circulating.

As you say, every country has their own laws and traditions. At Bolivia, you can see ate Central Bank, they offer gold commemorative coins that have no face value, named as "Moneda Indígena" and "Moneda Minera". They sell them accordingly to gold value.
They also offer commemorative silver coins that have face value, but they "sell" them for a different price: 200 Bolivianos 1979, sold for Bs 180, 50 Bolivianos from 1998 is sold for Bs 210, and commemorative coin for the country name reform (República de Bolivia changed to Estado Plurinacional de Bolivia), that shows no date nor face value is sold for Bs 200.
Finally they offer 6 bimetallic commemorative coins, for different Independence events, that have no face value on them, are sold for different prices. On my opinion, modern "coins" that don't have a face value, commemorate events or something and have no legal value should be considered medals, not coins, but Bolivian government has a different opinion than mine.

Very interesting topic. It is good to see the Uruguayan point of view on this subject. In Australia it is very different.

Firstly no Australia coins have been de-monetised. They can all be either used as currency/legal tender or taken to a bank in the case of pre 1966 non-decimal currency and exchanged for equivalent value modern currency.

Australia has definitive coins that are created/minted at face value for circulation by the Royal Australian Mint. At the moment we have 5 cent, 10 cent, 20 cent, 50 cent, $1 & $2 coins. Each of these coins are issued in their standard definitive common form most years. Although there are some gaps/missing years for some of them. For instance no Definitive Mob of Roos $1 coin was issued into circulation in 2005. In that year a circulating commemorative $1 coin was issued in its place.

Australia has commemorative coins that are issued at face value into circulation from time to time. So far we have had $2 (Some coloured ones), $1 (1 coloured one), 50, 20, 10 & 5 cent commemorative coins issued into circulation.

Australia also has commemorative coins that are issued at a much higher price than face value. These are what we describe as NCLT, Non Circulating Legal Tender. Sometimes these types of coins are issued in Mint and Proof only sets or are sometimes issued individually at a premium price in coincards etc. They can be the same size and weight as circulating coins and exhibit a face value the same as the coin they are representing. ie $1 or 50 cents etc. Some of them are proof finish, specimen finish, uncirculated finish or even pad printed coloured coins. Some of them have special Mintmarks, Privymarks or Counterstamps.

Sometimes these Mintmarked, Privymarked or Counterstamped coins are actually the same design, composition and size as coins that were issued into circulation. The average person looking at a standard coin and the same mintmarked coin might not be able to tell the difference. Of course coin enthusiasts will know the difference. Often these special coins will slip into circulation and it is fun to find them when noodling.

Then we come to the NCLT coins that can be made from Base Metal such as Aluminium-bronze etc but they are an unusual face value. These NCLT coins can be 25 cents or $5 face value. You can legally spend them as they are legal tender but you might have difficulty in some shops as they are not normally used to purchase things and they are an unusual size.

Next we have NCLT Bullion type coins that are made from silver or gold or even platinum. These coins can have a face value as low as 10 cents or all the way up to $1,000,000. You can not buy them at face value of course. They attract a very high premium over face value. An example would be a $1 Silver commemorative issued in a capsule and plush box might cost $70 to $100 when it is issued. These coins are legal tender and theoretically you could spend them in a shop for face value. But if you did you would be a fool.

In Australia we have two Mints. the Royal Australian Mint (RAM) who issue all circulating coins as well as NCLT coins of all of the above mentioned types. The other Mint is the Perth Mint who do not issue circulating coins. They concentrate on NCLT coins made from all kinds of metal, Silver, Gold, Platinum and even base metal. Of course coins produced by the Perth Mint in theory can be used to buy things at their face value, but you just wouldn't and because they are precious metals and unusual sizes they probably would not be accepted in a shop.

One other interesting type of coin is produced by the Perth Mint. It is a base metal (aluminium-bronze) $1 coin. They mint them to be placed into special coincards commemorating various things or they pass them onto Australia Post who insert them into PNC's (Postal Numismatic Covers). These are considered to be NCLT as they are issued at a premium price, usually around $17.95 for a PNC or $15 for a coincard version. These Perth Mint $1 coins are not the same size or weight as the normal Australian $1coin. They are larger and heavier.

Then we have all the unusual shaped weird coins such as surfboards that are produced mainly by the Perth Mint. Best to not mention them too much. It is a complicated scene here in Australia and hard to keep up with it all.

Regards Mike

Thank you for explaining the approach, but I disagree with it. If we take the similar approach most of the modern world coins in the numista catalogue would be circulating. For example, all the Danish 500kr silver coins. However, if we do consider only coins that are actually used as means of payment to be circulating, I would consider golden and colored silver coins from Uruguay, which are clearly meant to be issued for collectors in very small numbers and proof quality to be non-circulating.

 

Would be great to have the unified approach to the coins from all over the world.

 

Best regards,

Loran

Legal tender - means you can pay with it (even if it would be nonsense, especially with precious metal coins) or at least get its face value at national bank (or equivalent) for it. What is not legal tender goes to exonumia.

 

Demonetized - you cannot pay with it anywhere (although it can still be exchanged at a bank sometimes, usually for some time)

 

Circulating/circulating commemorative - "sold"/exchanged/released for its face value - meant for circulation among population

 

Non-circulating coin - usually precious metal coin sold with premium. You can get its face value at national bank, or theoretically even pay with it.

 

What I believe happens here with Uruguay:

 

They have stupid laws (sorry, Uruguayans), so they go around it by:

1. Creating coin they do not want to release into circulation.
2. Demonetizing them right away - creating numismatic product, that would normally be a token or bullion.
3. Selling the product, while not affecting country coinage.

 

This creates coins that were legal tender, so we obviously keep them in coins category. About circulating/non-circulating, this is another issue. We should clarify the following:

 

If the coin was meant to be circulating (or circulating commemorative, it does not matter) and was not released into circulation (either by withdrawing them due to some mistake or something) or officially demonetized (like in this case) and thus never circulated, should the intent of circulation be enough to mark them as circulating? 

 

I would personally say no, and marked them as non-circulating (they were still legal tender though). But I would like to know your opinions.

 

If the coin circulated - even for a day, then it should of course be marked as circulating. And if the coin was never meant to be circulating (extreme examples - 1kg gold coins…) then it should be non-circulating.

I am glad this thread is alive again, so it gives me the excuse to add new details:

 

In certain way I agree to Loran that we could have a rule for this issue. If guidelines stat what goes into circulating (standard or commemorative) and what goes to non circulating, of course I would follow the decision. But there is not a statement about it, so I feel next step is to follow what issuer decides (no matter if I agree or not).

 

As said before, ALL Uruguayan coins are created as circulating, even if they are of precious metals and/or in small quantities (quantity may fall into subjective owing to low population of our country, we're a bit more than 3 million people). Also in most of demonetizing decrees, they stat “para preservar su valor numismático” ("to preserve their numismatic value").

 

Now, something to notice is that every modern coin created at Uruguay (after 1950) have lower metal value than its face value. It comes from, as most of we know, in ancient times, coins had its value depending on the metal contents (value), and in fact, coins were more a piece of metal sealed to certify its weight, fineness, and thus its value (many have seen was usual tax collectors used scales to weigh the coins received, instead of adding the values of them). Therefore, as most (if not all) circulating coins, the currency value is higher than bullion value. Only exception was the “Gaucho de oro” ("Golden Gaucho") from 1992, that was a bullion gold set, that also HAD CIRCULATING STATUS, and their face value was depending on the gold market value.

 

I have seen in other countries, non circulating coins have lower face value than bullion, like silver ounces, i.e. in USA, they use to have 1 USD face value, for a silver ounce. 

 

In many countries, commemorative coins are never “monetized” nor “demonetized”, but at Uruguay all are. This is another detail missing on guidelines; there is not a issuing date for coins, nor a “never monetized” option while “demonetized date” exists. That's why I use to mark non-circulating coins as demonetized, and as date, same of their year. I think is not technically correct, but is the best solution I found.

 

All those small quantity coins are legal tender, and legally, they have its circulating value from the moment of the Law date, no matter if they were already minted, or put into circulation. Some are demonetized when they put them into circulation; others a few days after, or even before their release to public, and in some cases they have been demonetized some years after their release. 

 

Central Bank of Uruguay has a numismatic section, where you can ask for demonetized coins they still have in stock, and the price of them varies depending on the USD, Euro and metal exchange rate of the day, but for the coins that are not demonetized, you can go directly to cashier and ask for them, and you get them for its face value (if that is not a definition of circulation coin….). 

There is this in the guidelines: https://en.numista.com/help/type-108.html

Jarcek

Legal tender - means you can pay with it (even if it would be nonsense, especially with precious metal coins) or at least get its face value at national bank (or equivalent) for it. What is not legal tender goes to exonumia.

 

Demonetized - you cannot pay with it anywhere (although it can still be exchanged at a bank sometimes, usually for some time)

 

Circulating/circulating commemorative - "sold"/exchanged/released for its face value - meant for circulation among population

 

Non-circulating coin - usually precious metal coin sold with premium. You can get its face value at national bank, or theoretically even pay with it.

A few things need correcting here.

 

Legal tender - This is purely related to the payment of debts. Many banknotes circulate freely without ever having legal tender status, including all Scottish and Northern Irish banknotes. We must never implement a rule “What is not legal tender goes to exonumia”, not least because we would consign all ancient coins, issued before the concept of legal tender had been invented, to exonumia.

 

Demonetized - This is when a piece ceases to be accepted by its issuer at face value. It is not the same as when a piece is withdrawn from circulation (a point often coinciding with the end of legal-tender status).

 

Non-circulating coin - Most are sold at a premium and are never available at face value. They may technically be legal tender but this is of no consequence. However, some are sold at face value without the issuers ever intending to accept them back at face value. This happened with the small, silver £20 coins issued in the UK a few years ago. Perhaps this is a good match to the Uruguayan situation?

Jarcek

Legal tender - means you can pay with it (even if it would be nonsense, especially with precious metal coins) or at least get its face value at national bank (or equivalent) for it. What is not legal tender goes to exonumia.

I agree with this statement but we have 1 exception to be mentioned: Andorran Diners. They weren’t legal tender as you can’t paid with it, but are still consider as belonging to the coin catalog.

Thank you all for a healthy debate on this interesting topic! From the guideline Jarcek shared on coin types, I feel that precious metal coins from Urugay fit the description of non-circulating coins:

 

• Non-circulating coin: Coin that has a face value associated with a circulation currency, but was never intended to be used in regular commercial activities, but rather as investment or collector piece

 

This is my reasoning for considering that it is not intended to be used in regular commercial activities, but rather as an investment. I will use the following coin as example: N#104008

 

1. Conversion of 2,000 pesos to EUR shows that this coin has a nominal value of ~47 EUR. It does not make practical sense to use the coin of such high denomination in commercial activities. Probably, it has the highest nominal value of current circulating coins in the world then?

2. Coin has a diameter of 37mm and weight of 25g, which also make it a very distinct outlier within modern circulating coins.

3. Proof quality and gold plating on the coin indicate that it is issues for collectors. There is not reasonable explanation for the mint to increase cost of their production, if we are speaking about the coin that is intended to be used in commercial activities. Extra effort to make a proof coin would be lost immediately after the first transaction :)

4. Mintage of the coin is 5,000. While it of course possible that a coin with low mintage is intended to circulate, it is rather unlikely.

5. The argument from adanieluy about the coin should be considered circulating, as it is available at face value while issued from the central bank is a good one. However, considering the example from  Denmark, where the same situation is the case, I would suggest that it does not make the coin circulating - the bank covers the cost of precious metal, production costs and adds a probably healthy margin to the face value of the coin before issuing it:  N#318244. Not sure about the coins from Uruguay, but Danish coins also come in a nice box with certificate, etc. Even though the price of the coin is the same as its nominal value, and the bank is ready to also buy it back for that value (in this case basically borrowing consumer money without any interest), I believe this is a marketing move for a non-circulating collector coin, rather than an indicator of the coin being circulating.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I felt it is correct to list all my arguments here, even if it will not impact our policy.

 

Good collecting to everyone!

Loran

I saw this thread mentioned elsewhere, so I rediscovered it.

 

I must say that I know nothing of political things in Uruguay, but it seems to me that:

 

If you have an optionto get new coin for face value, it basically means it “sort of circulates”. If the coins are then demonetized and sold for higher prices, ok.

 

But is there such option, to get such coin for face value for mere mortal? If not, or if coins are demonetized before they are released (but after they are made), there is a room for some sort of grand scheme theft. (Let's say government official could buy these coins for face value before they are officially demonetized, then sells them for profit)

adanieluyWhat means "circulating"? Circulating implies a coin is valid for payments, so is money. A coin will be circulating (legal tender, valid, etc.) till it is demonetized. The fact a coin would have a long or short time from issued till demonetized does not affect the type of coin; not even if the coin is demonetized at same time of issued, or even before.

Imho, the question is not what means “circulating” in itself, but what it means on Numista. the fact you had to precise “legal tender, valid, etc” is a clue that this word can mean many things :-)

 

From my perspective, intention is crucial. If a coin was never intended to actually circulate (being used for trade) anywhere, it should be set as non-circulating for Numista. This would allow consistency in Numista DB, regardless law specificity and other Numismatics creative processes of each countries.

Hello,

 

For the sake of clarity, the definitions have been updated in the guidelines:

 

https://en.numista.com/help/type-108.html 

• Standard circulation coin: Non-commemorative coin that was intended by the issuer to be used in regular commercial activities.
• Circulating commemorative coin: Coin that was issued for a limited time to commemorate a specific subject and that was intended by the issuer to be used in regular commercial activities.
• Non-circulating coin: Coin that has a face value associated with a circulation currency, but was never intended to be used in regular commercial activities, but rather as investment or collector piece.

How do we gauge intend? If I have a coin that was produced by the multi millions and you could get it for face at the bank and or post office but not from some random cashier is this  CC or NC now?

If you can get it at the bank or post office then eventually you can get it from random cashier.

If the mint or the central bank distributes the coin to shops (or to the banks so that they can distribute it to shops) so that the shops can use it in their commercial activities, I consider it is intended for circulation.
If you need to buy it from the mint, the bank or the post office (or whatever official distributor), I consider it is intended for investment or collection, whatever price you paid (for free, for face value or with a premium).

How about coins that were issued for face value, but the intent was for them to simply sit in bank vaults as a reserve? For example, the 1897 Costa Rican series never saw widespread circulation as they were intended to back circulating banknotes.

 

Also, what about coins that function differently than standard coins or banknotes? The Mosi-Oa-Tunya series from Zimbabwe are issued at their gold value (plus about 5% to cover the cost of minting/processing) and are redeemable for Zimbabwean or US currency. These coins function like the above example, never used in interpersonal transactions but rather between businesses or firms.

I don't know enough about both series, so I can't tell for sure.
Regarding the Costa Rica series, if the coin was intended for circulation, even if a big part kept in reserve, I would classify as circulating.

Regarding the Mosi-Oa-Tunya series, I consider that “commercial activities” includes business between companies. I understand that the series is intended as investment items, for saving despite inflation. If they were indeed also intended for high value transactions, I believe it would qualify for circulating and it would be nice to add the explanation as comment.

Good morning

 

I have NEVER hread of any business paying another in gold, in modern times, and especially not in Zimbabwe.  For that there are far safer and more readilly exceptable methods.

 

We are starting to loose site of thee trees by analyzing the forest too much.

 

You can not go out an pay anything with the Zimbabwe Mosi-Oa-Tunya coins.  The average Zimbabwean has not heard of these coins, will not accept them and would most likely rob you if they realize it is gold.  or perhaps if you are lucky, only call the Police.

 

So no, I do not see these are circulation coins.  For that matter, if this was true, I could pay my loaf of bread in a shop in Cape Town using a Kruger rand.  This will not happen, thus a Kruger Rand, even though it has Rand Value on it, is an investment coin, investment in GOLD, not rand.  And since the legal currency in Zimbabwe is the Zimbabwe Dollar (Euro, US Dollar, Pound, and others are accepted, but not really legal currency), how many Dollars would a Mosi-ao-Tunya be officially.  Not sales price, not gold value, not perceived value, but actualy Zimbabwe Dollars?  And would an average Zimbabwean know this? And will the value in Zim Dollars remain when taking the inflation into consideration?

 

Philip

The point is that the central bank intends for these coins to circulate amongst businesses. Frankly, the experiences of the average person do not matter in this case. The only question is whether the government intends for these coins to circulate at all.

 

Back to my Costa Rican example, most people living in Costa Rica at the time never saw these gold coins in circulation. Their value was too high for the average household to afford. However, these coins were used by banks and firms either as a reserve or for foreign trade. Should they be marked as non-circulating?

 

Also, if the Krugerrand is issued for metal value, I would propose listing them as circulating.

I am 100% convinced that the cedntal bank would NOT want transactions paid in gold.  They then loose control over the financial transcations in the country.

 

At the moment we are discussing none value add issues.  If you want it as Circulation issue, I will approve.  the next time you visit Harare, Vic Falls or any of the Cities, please let me know how it went with paying anything in gold.

Uruguay 2000 Pesos Durazno City Foundation is a silver proof coin with mintage of 1500 minted in Poland

2000 Pesos (Durazno City Foundation) - Uruguay – Numista

 

How and where were these coins  released into circulation.  Some corrupt Uruguayan official would have snaffled them all to sell at inflated prices.

 

Sorry this coin is NCLT.  There needs to be consistency on this site.