I am tired of seeing postal orders being put under 'Tokens' - as postal orders are NOT tokens.
I know fellow postal order collectors who are also members of the Postal Order Society would be very interested in contributing if postal orders are listed under 'Postal Orders'.
Quote: "Xavier"Hello,
Postal orders are now accepted as part of the new Exonumia section.
Xavier,
Postal orders are NOT exonumia - nor are community currency notes!
I am not pleased to see postal orders listed under 'Exonumia', as postal orders have been issued by postal administrations - which are usually government departments or government owned corporations.
I am pleased to see postal orders moved to Exonumia but I would request that they be given their own section under "Paper vouchers" rather than being put in "Promissory notes", as this would make them easier to find.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "ceh2019"I am pleased to see postal orders moved to Exonumia but I would request that they be given their own section under "Paper vouchers" rather than being put in "Promissory notes", as this would make them easier to find.
Postal orders are NOT vouchers!
Since when has a voucher ever depicted a monarch's portrait or a country's Coat-of-Arms?
So you want a separate section within Exonumia called "Postal orders"? I don't think that should be too controversial. Alternatively, can we come up with a broader term than "Paper vouchers" for this whole section?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "ceh2019"So you want a separate section within Exonumia called "Postal orders"? I don't think that should be too controversial. Alternatively, can we come up with a broader term than "Paper vouchers" for this whole section?
Not within 'Exonumia' - but as a totally separate section titled 'Postal Orders'.
The 'Postal Orders' section would need to be arranged by country first, then by currency.
Quote: "BCNumismatics" Postal orders are NOT exonumia - nor are community currency notes!
The definition of Exonumia is: Numismatic items other than coins and banknotes (Merriam-Webster).
Postal orders are not banknotes--they are a type of non-legal tender promissory note. So if you really think Postal orders are not Exonumia, that means you must think these are not numismatic items, which would mean they shouldn't be on this website at all.
Quote: "ceh2019"I am pleased to see postal orders moved to Exonumia but I would request that they be given their own section under "Paper vouchers" rather than being put in "Promissory notes", as this would make them easier to find.
And I would agree with giving Postal orders there own type.
I would like to see a clearer division between the paper Exonumia and the non-paper Exonumia--perhaps something like a higher "level" for those two catagories, within the Exonumia list. I imagine that, if we were to get that kind of division, it would then be much easier to expand the paper Exonumia with many, many sub-divisions, like the non-paper side.
Seeing Postal orders as a separate catagory under Promissory notes would be one of the benefits. It would also help give clearer divisions between Prison versus Leper money or Business versus Local administration money.
Postal orders ARE numismatic items - & they are official issues of various postal administrations, which are either government departments or government owned corporations.
Postal orders require their own section, as they are a specialised area of numismatics in their own right - & catalogues for postal orders have been published, especially through the Postal Order Society in England.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders ARE numismatic items - & they are official issues of various postal administrations, which are either government departments or government owned corporations.
Postal orders require their own section, as they are a specialised area of numismatics in their own right - & catalogues for postal orders have been published, especially through the Postal Order Society in England.
Aidan.
How are they numismatic items if they are neither coins nor banknotes? Stamps are issued by postal administrations but we don't include them. You've been demanding postal orders be included on Numista for months. Can't you be content now that they have a place?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders ARE numismatic items - & they are official issues of various postal administrations, which are either government departments or government owned corporations.
Postal orders require their own section, as they are a specialised area of numismatics in their own right - & catalogues for postal orders have been published, especially through the Postal Order Society in England.
Aidan.
I agree with you technically they weren’t legal tender but they are a Promissory note similar to a cheque (which also should be here)
Hi to whoever is reading this. Did you know that TYPEWRITER (on a QWERTY keyboard) is the longest word you can type using only the letters on one row of the keyboard.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders ARE numismatic items - & they are official issues of various postal administrations, which are either government departments or government owned corporations.
And if you think that--because they still are not actual banknotes--that means they are, in fact, Exonumia.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders require their own section, as they are a specialised area of numismatics in their own right - & catalogues for postal orders have been published, especially through the Postal Order Society in England.
They need their own section in Exonumia, yes. And hopefully, with time, there will be more divisions in the paper Exonumia to allow Promissory notes to be divided into sub-sections, including Postal orders.
Exonumia is an area of specialization, in my opinion. Looking at the paper side, we have POW stuff, Leper money, prison money, and food stamps, to name a few of the big catagories. All these catagories are specialized, and I am sure all of them have their own catalogues and own societies, just like Postal orders.
But these are so specialized that they cannot possibly have their own headers--that would take up to much space. However, all these specialized areas can be classified as Exonumia, so within Exonumia, they can be individually divided into their own sections.
Postal orders are sometimes printed by the same printer that prints banknotes.
In England, it is more banknote collectors than stamp collectors who collect postal orders.
I don't know of any cheques that depict monarchs' portraits or countries' Coats-of-Arms.
Including them under 'Exonumia' is NOT the right thing to do!
I am intending to promote Numista to the Postal Order Society so that the Society's members apart from me would be able to contribute directly without postal orders being buried with other items that are totally unconnected to postal orders.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders are sometimes printed by the same printer that prints banknotes.
In England, it is more banknote collectors than stamp collectors who collect postal orders.
I don't know of any cheques that depict monarchs' portraits or countries' Coats-of-Arms.
These three points are irrelevant. Some banknote printers are private companies--they can print whatever they want, including things like cheques. It does not matter how many people collect Postal orders--they are still pieces of Exonumia. And it does not matter what the Postal orders depict--by that argument, we will be listing stamps, which are not numismatic items.
Even though you have agrees that postal orders are numismatic items, I see you are avoiding the fact that postal orders are exonumia. And if postal order are exonumia, that means listing them under exonumia is proper.
And by this point, I am just repeating what I and many others have said to you over and over again. If you do not want to be reasoned with, I will not try anymore.
But please keep in mind: there is currently no way to manually move items from Banknotes to Exonumia. If you submit more postal orders to countries listed under the Banknote section, I cannot send back the requests to ask you to change the country anymore. You will have to submit them under Exonumia if you want them to be approved.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders are NOT exonumia - as they are a financial instrument like a banknote.
I will NEVER agree to postal orders being included under 'Exonumia' - as they are NOT exonumia!
Aidan.
What's wrong with them finding their own place in exonumia? Do you feel your specialist interest is being belittled by them being placed there? On the contrary, you should see this as a great opportunity, allowing this field to grow without being subsumed (and largely ignored) within the much larger field of banknotes. That's why I proposed giving them their own heading, so they can easily be found.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders are NOT exonumia - as they are a financial instrument like a banknote.
I will NEVER agree to postal orders being included under 'Exonumia' - as they are NOT exonumia!
Aidan.
No everything is perfect in life, this is likely one of them. But I dare to say that if there will be thousands of these entries, this will make a proper baseline for a separation to another database. Look upon it as just as another stepping stone to the finish line.
Aidan, I think the problem here is about understanding the meaning of the word Exonumia between you and other members at the forum. To clarify it, we need to go to a dictionary. And only a dictionary can be a judge. E.g. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exonumia
"numismatic items (such as tokens, medals, or scrip) other than coins and paper money"
By applying "Postal Orders" to this definition we need to conclude:
1. Are "Postal Orders" numismatic items? - Yes (everyone agrees on that, including you).
2. Are "Postal Orders" coins or paper money? - No (everyone agrees on that, including you).
If "Postal Orders" ARE numismatic items & they ARE NOT coins or paper money, it means that they ARE Exonumia. Period.
Quote: "Xavier"I added "postal order" as a separate exonumia type.
Postal orders will not have their own section on Numista next to coins, banknotes, and exonumia.
Xavier,
Postal orders are NOT exonumia.
I don't agree with putting postal orders under 'Exonumia', as they are official financial instruments issued by a government department or a government owned corporation - which is a country's postal administration.
Quote: "iiruig""numismatic items (such as tokens, medals, or scrip) other than coins and paper money"
By applying "Postal Orders" to this definition we need to conclude:
1. Are "Postal Orders" numismatic items? - Yes (everyone agrees on that, including you).
2. Are "Postal Orders" coins or paper money? - No (everyone agrees on that, including you).
If "Postal Orders" ARE numismatic items & they ARE NOT coins or paper money, it means that they ARE Exonumia. Period.
I hope that helps.
Yurii
Quote: "Xavier"I added "postal order" as a separate exonumia type.
Postal orders will not have their own section on Numista next to coins, banknotes, and exonumia.
Excellent!
All postal orders have now been assigned to this new type.
Well if want to bring up Wikipedia, under the postal order page it says "Postal orders are not legal tender, but a type of promissory note, similar to a cheque." So it belongs under exonumia.
The more you keep up with this vendetta for a new section, the less likely it's going to happen. Give it a rest.
Master Coin Referee
Coin referee for CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN, and SLV.
Revisor principal de monedas
Revisor de Numista para monedas de CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN y SLV.
Quote: "Some_Nerd"Well if want to bring up Wikipedia, under the postal order page it says "Postal orders are not legal tender, but a type of promissory note, similar to a cheque." So it belongs under exonumia.
The more you keep up with this vendetta for a new section, the less likely it's going to happen. Give it a rest.
Does NOT belong under 'Exonumia'!
Cheques don't have portraits of monarchs or countries' Coats-of-Arms.
Why does having a portrait of the monarch or the country's coat of arms prevent postal orders being classified as exonumia? Several of us have provided you with dictionary definitions of exonumia. Why don't you provide us with your definition so we can understand your argument?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Does NOT belong under 'Exonumia'!
I'm sorry Aidan, you can repeat this another 10 times, but every time you're making a fool of yourself more and more. You really have to let it go.
They're not coins, they're not banknotes, so they're exonumia. If you say they're not exonumia than you're saying they're not even numismatic objects and then they shouldn't belong here on Numista at all. Is that what you want?
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Does NOT belong under 'Exonumia'!
I'm sorry Aidan, you can repeat this another 10 times, but every time you're making a fool of yourself more and more. You really have to let it go.
They're not coins, they're not banknotes, so they're exonumia. If you say they're not exonumia than you're saying they're not even numismatic objects and then they shouldn't belong here on Numista at all. Is that what you want?
They ARE numismatic items like banknotes & coins - they are NOT exonumia!
They are a financial instrument issued through post offices to provide a safe way of tranferring money through the mail - as it is illegal in many countries to post cash in the mail.
Quote: "Essor Prof"I'm sorry Aidan, you can repeat this another 10 times, but every time you're making a fool of yourself more and more. You really have to let it go.
They ARE numismatic items like banknotes & coins - they are NOT exonumia!
Quote: "BCNumismatics"
They ARE numismatic items like banknotes & coins - they are NOT exonumia!
They are a financial instrument issued through post offices to provide a safe way of tranferring money through the mail - as it is illegal in many countries to post cash in the mail.
Aidan.
You still don't say what you think exonumia means. Without that, you aren't going to get anywhere in this discussion.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"'Exonumia' literally means 'outside the area of numismatics'
That is not wat exonumia means. Ex means 'other than'. Numia comes from Numis, which means money, or coins. So Exonumia means 'other than money'. And that is exactly what postal orders are.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"'Exonumia' literally means 'outside the area of numismatics'
That is not wat exonumia means. Ex means 'other than'. Numia comes from Numis, which means money, or coins. So Exonumia means 'other than money'. And that is exactly what postal orders are.
The word 'exo' means 'outside' - as in 'exoskeleton' , which is 'skeleton on the outside'.
Postal orders ARE a financial instrument like banknotes & coins - & has been used in circulation as currency in both the Orange Free State & the South African Republic during the Boer War of 1899 - 1902, & in the U.K. during both World War I & World War II.
This strengthens the case for postal orders being listed as numismatic items, NOT exonumia!
The site wasn’t designed to support these Postal orders, now you forced it to the catalog and you are complaining about the way they are displayed?
An other option will be to do the same that have been done with coins set, just remove them.
Please accept the way it is, it’s a good compromise.
Objects of historical interest which lie outside the field of numismatics but which relate to or resemble coins or currency, such as medals, tokens, badges, coupons, etc.
The prefix exo is defined as the Greek for without. The OED therefore agrees with your definition of the term and, in the examples it quotes, it includes tokens and coupons, both of which are closer to money than postal orders (since they can be used in purchases) but which nevertheless lie with exonumia. On the basis of this definition, the expansion of Numista to include exonumia should not be taken for granted.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Wow! Reading this post in its whole is like reading a manuscript of two parents arguing with a small child wanting ice cream, and then gets mad when it's the wrong flavour.
Let's find a definition of Exonumia once and fror all, shall we?
I believe the most clear definitions are: items, as tokens or medals, that resemble money but are not intended to circulate as money. I also think this one sums it up really good: Exonumia are numismatic items other than coins and paper money. This includes "Good For" tokens, badges, counterstamped coins, elongated coins, encased coins, souvenir medallions, tags, wooden nickels and other similar items. It is related to numismatics, and many coin collectors are also exonumists. Besides the above strict definition, others extend it to include non-coins which may or may not be legal tenders such as cheques, credit cards and similar paper. These can also be considered notaphily or scripophily.
Definitions from various websites:
merriam-webster.com: Definition of exonumia: numismatic items (such as tokens, medals, or scrip) other than coins and paper money
www.collinsdictionary.com: exonumia in British English (ˌɛksəʊˈnjuːmɪə, ˌɛksəʊˈnuːmɪə) PLURAL NOUN any non-monetary object of interest to numismatists, such as medals, tokens, etc; exonumia in American English (ˌɛksəˈnumiə) US NOUN Numismatics collectible items other than coins or paper money, as medals or tokens; exonumia in American English (ˌeksəˈnuːmiə, -ˈnjuː-) PLURAL NOUN items, as tokens or medals, that resemble money but are not intended to circulate as money.
www.dictionary.com: exonumia[ ek-suh-noo-mee-uh, -nyoo- ] plural noun items, as tokens or medals, that resemble money but are not intended to circulate as money.
www.yourdictionary.com: Exonumia meaning 1) Collectible items other than coins or paper money, as medals or tokens. 2) Coinlike objects. 3) Study and/or collection of such. ORIGIN OF EXONUMIA exo- (“out of”) + numia (“coin”) From Wiktionary
www.thefreedictionary.com: exonumia (ˌɛksəʊˈnjuːmɪə; ˌɛksəʊˈnuːmɪə) pl n (Antiques) any non-monetary object of interest to numismatists, such as medals, tokens, etc.
www.definitions.net: exonumia(Noun) Coinlike objects. exonumia(Noun) Study and/or collection of such. Exonumia Exonumia are numismatic items other than coins and paper money. This includes "Good For" tokens, badges, counterstamped coins, elongated coins, encased coins, souvenir medallions, tags, wooden nickels and other similar items. It is related to numismatics, and many coin collectors are also exonumists. Besides the above strict definition, others extend it to include non-coins which may or may not be legal tenders such as cheques, credit cards and similar paper. These can also be considered notaphily or scripophily.
educalingo.com: Exonumia is a noun. Exonumia are numismatic items other than coins and paper money. This includes "Good For" tokens, badges, counterstamped coins, elongated coins, encased coins, souvenir medallions, tags, wooden nickels and other similar items. It is related to numismatics, and many coin collectors are also exonumists. Besides the above strict definition, others extend it to include non-coins which may or may not be legal tenders such as cheques, credit cards and similar paper. These can also be considered notaphily or scripophily.
www.infoplease.com: ex•o•nu•mi•a Pronunciation: (ek"su-n'mē-u, -ny'-), [key] — n.pl. items, as tokens or medals, that resemble money but are not intended to circulate as money.
