Should the guidelines for editing be modified for coins with large numeric values?

The Guidelines for editing say that the Face value in word form should use digits for the figures and letters for the currency.

For large valued items (like the 100 trillion dollar Zimbabwe bank note) this gets unwieldy. The correct form for that note according to the current guidelines would be 100000000000000 Dollars.

Should Numista keep the current guidelines, should punctuation or spaces be allowed, or should there be an exception added to use words for large face values?

This will more or less be a copy-paste of the message I just sent to bjherbison.

I've been experimenting a little with the inflation denominations of Zimbabwe, since I personally think that "Million", "Billion", and "Trillion" should be used in word form in the "Face value in word form" section, due to all the zeros. And after all, it says word form. But yes, I do know we don't write "half a dollar", so no need to bother with that argument. But since these are numbers most of us don't really work with in our daily life, and it's really difficult to understand how much 100,000,000,000,000 dollars really is. It's just zeros.

I did experiment with some of the Zimbabwean banknotes just to see how it would work out. If you guys don't like, it's no big deal and I'll change it back. The line "Face value in figure form" the denomination still has all its 6-14 zeros, of course. This way we have both versions and it's a win-win, I reckon.

Here's a few examples, please let me know:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note201945.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note201951.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note201552.html

Thanks!

As long as we can admire the awesome display of zeros in the title I am okay with it that. It also helps with the search if somebody searches '100 trillion dollar' the search will find it.

Edit: I have a question about the Zimbabwe notes. Giesecke and Devrient GmbH have printed about half of the government's currency and provided the printing paper until they were asked by the German government to stop aiding the hyperinflation. But I don't see them on the printers.

Quote: "Idolenz"​Edit: I have a question about the Zimbabwe notes. Giesecke and Devrient GmbH have printed about half of the government's currency and provided the printing paper until they were asked by the German government to stop aiding the hyperinflation. But I don't see them on the printers.

​Do you mean on the banknotes or in the banknote pages?

The pages under comment, I don't think they have an imprint.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note201552.html

I just remembered that because when I bought mine I read that how ridiculous the inflation was that the notes lost most of the value in the time they were ship to zimbabwe and that my note probably never even saw zimbabwe but was sold directly to a wholesaler.

Quote: "Idolenz"​I just remembered that because when I bought mine I read that how ridiculous the inflation was that the notes lost most of the value in the time they were ship to zimbabwe and that my note probably never even saw zimbabwe but was sold directly to a wholesaler.

​True. Abou half way they had already lost their value and new ones were ordered. It's easy to see in the escalation from 50 billion to 10 trillion. Something serious happened there.

Quote: "bjherbison"​The Guidelines for editing say that the Face value in word form should use digits for the figures and letters for the currency.
​
​For large valued items (like the 100 trillion dollar Zimbabwe bank note) this gets unwieldy. The correct form for that note according to the current guidelines would be 100000000000000 Dollars.
​
​Should Numista keep the current guidelines, should punctuation or spaces be allowed, or should there be an exception added to use words for large face values?

​The guidelines were recently updated. My question was answered in two ways:

1. Numbers 10 000 or larger are written with spaces, making it easier to understand how big a number is.
   
2. The words billion and trillion are explicitly listed as not appropriate.
   

Hello,
In the new guidelines, we chose to keep the long list of zeros. Numista is used by people in different countries, and the words "billion" and "trillion" might be understood in different ways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales
https://en.numista.com/numisdoc/articles/catalogue_guidelines.php#numbers
I just submitted a few requests to align the banknote pages to the guidelines.

This is a shame this has been rejected. Also the fact that commas have been removed from mintage figures makes numista less desirable. Hopefully common sense will prevail!

Quote: "peterjhalford"​This is a shame this has been rejected. Also the fact that commas have been removed from mintage figures makes numista less desirable. Hopefully common sense will prevail!

​By the guidelines spaces should have been added to mintage figures 10 000 or larger when the commas were removed. Hopefully there is a task to complete that transition.

My point being I do not like the fact that the commas were taken away. 1,000,000,000 much easier to read than 1 000 000 000 000, just blurs into one sadly. BRING BACK THE COMMA

Quote: "Xavier"​Hello,
​In the new guidelines, we chose to keep the long list of zeros. Numista is used by people in different countries, and the words "billion" and "trillion" might be understood in different ways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales

​As a user of the long scale I see yoir point. I still reckon Zimbabwe should keep their "value in word for" as it is now, since the denomination is written out on the banknotes. It clearly says "One Billion Dollars" and "Ten Trillion Dollars" on the notes, and this is most likely what people are searching for, instead of sitting down and counting the zeros. If there were just one or two hyperinflation notes, I'd agree, but since they go from One Million all the way to One Hundred Trillion, it's tricky to keep count if the zeros.

Yes, commas are extremely needed. Trying to look at mintage numbers is now extremely obnoxious. Space, commas, whatever. Neither is awful though. No one can possibly think trying to read these huge numbers without one or the other is easier.

Quote: "peterjhalford"​My point being I do not like the fact that the commas were taken away. 1,000,000,000 much easier to read than 1 000 000 000 000, just blurs into one sadly. BRING BACK THE COMMA

​I agree with this--I much prefer commas over spaces.

I am happy that every large-number field is now consistently using spaces (denominations, mintages, and values); however, because using either commas or spaces is subjective, I would love to see a forum pole about this, to see what the majority thinks.

Commas in large numbers are very normal for those of us in English-speaking countries (and numbers can look odd with spaces instead). However, in many other places a comma indicates a decimal point and its presence can create an entirely different kind of confusion or visual oddity. Use of spaces avoids this ambiguity/confusion (at the cost of looking a bit unusual to everyone). Seems like a fair trade with how widely dispersed Numista usage is (and as the site is based in France).

Quote: "ngdawa"​​​As a user of the long scale I see yoir point. I still reckon Zimbabwe should keep their "value in word for" as it is now, since the denomination is written out on the banknotes. It clearly says "One Billion Dollars" and "Ten Trillion Dollars" on the notes, and this is most likely what people are searching for, instead of sitting down and counting the zeros. If there were just one or two hyperinflation notes, I'd agree, but since they go from One Million all the way to One Hundred Trillion, it's tricky to keep count if the zeros.

​General searches for "trillion", "billion", "million" will still find the notes as the text on the notes is in the entry. Short/long scale isn't an issue for searching text on notes.

Explicit face value searches for "billion" won't find the notes. But since this field is referring to the actual number, not the text on the notes, short/long scale is an issue for these searches.

Quote: "seltsamesammler"​Commas in large numbers are very normal for those of us in English-speaking countries (and numbers can look odd with spaces instead). However, in many other places a comma indicates a decimal point and its presence can create an entirely different kind of confusion or visual oddity. Use of spaces avoids this ambiguity/confusion (at the cost of looking a bit unusual to everyone). Seems like a fair trade with how widely dispersed Numista usage is (and as the site is based in France).

​I think one issue with this argument is that--while we have a large variety of users here--this side of the site is still in English. And according to the first guideline, we are supposed to use English unless otherwise specified. So if, in English, commas are widely used, I imagine there should not be much of a problem.

And of course, whatever style we use on the English side would not necessarily be reflected on the French side--we would need a French style there.

Quote: "Sulfur"​​I think one issue with this argument is that--while we have a large variety of users here--this side of the site is still in English. And according to the first guideline, we are supposed to use English unless otherwise specified. So if, in English, commas are widely used, I imagine there should not be much of a problem.
​
​And of course, whatever style we use on the English side would not necessarily be reflected on the French side--we would need a French style there.

​That's a fair point. Although I'm not sure if numbering conventions are as much of a language issue as they are a cultural preference. Perhaps the intention is to unify standards across both sides?

Quote: "seltsamesammler"That's a fair point. Although I'm not sure if numbering conventions are as much of a language issue as they are a cultural preference. Perhaps the intention is to unify standards across both sides?

That is also a good point, and I am not sure either. But I also cannot think of an English-speaking place that does not have a preference towards commas (although, if there is one, I would love to know).

And the intention was not to unify standards across both sides.

When the new guidelines were original proposed, I questioned this one right away. The answer I revieced was that "it's a matter of preference," which was supported with: "ISO and BIPM recommend spaces because they avoid any potential confusion between decimal and thousand dividers."

I, personally, do not see an issue with the potential confusion--for the denomination, if the value is above one thousand, there will likely not be a decimal place to worry about (unless it is purposely done to be weird); and for the mintage, we are talking about whole numbers only. That just leaves the value fields, and while there would be a mix of decimals and commas--for as long as we displayed them with commas--I do not recall anyone complaining about this.

And as for the specific sources, different sources will give different standards. From what I read about ISO, they actually say to use spaces to avoid potential confusion on international documents--which makes sense as the organization is international. But if you take something like the Oxford style guide (specifically for English), they say to use commas. And we do specifically reference Oxford in the guidelines, so I think that one is important.

Regardless, I still think a forum pole would be best here. In English, while commas are prefered, spaces are not technically incorrect, so the argument of preference is definitely valid. And as for the argument of confusion... if the majority vote for using commas, I think that would not be as big an issue as it may seem.

Quote: "seltsamesammler"in many other places a comma indicates a decimal point and its presence can create an entirely different kind of confusion or visual oddity. Use of spaces avoids this ambiguity/confusion (at the cost of looking a bit unusual to everyone).

​I second this.

Quote: "Sulfur"I also cannot think of an English-speaking place that does not have a preference towards commas (although, if there is one, I would love to know).

Your own English-speaking Canada​! This is the very system Canada uses on coins. South Africa and some other countries too. English is also used as lingua franca, in scientific publications, and as a business language in many countries and institutions around the world, including in countries that use 10.000. The EU English style guide for example.

Many banknotes that use English also use 10 000.

Quote: "Sulfur"The answer I revieced was that "it's a matter of preference,"

​This is out of context. I referred to your personal preference to use "," and clearly explained it in my reply. My personal preference would not be to go for 10 000.

Quote: "stratocaster"

Quote: "Sulfur"I also cannot think of an English-speaking place that does not have a preference towards commas (although, if there is one, I would love to know).

​Your own English-speaking Canada​! This is the very system Canada uses on coins. South Africa and some other countries too. English is also used as lingua franca, in scientific publications, and as a business language in many countries and institutions around the world, including in countries that use 10.000. The EU English style guide for example.
​
​Many banknotes that use English also use 10 000.

In Canada, if official documents are written in English, they must also be written in French (and vise versa). The same logic would apply to our coins; however, that would look quite crowded, hence why we use Latin. And that also explains the appearance of the numbers on the coins: spaces are acceptable in both English and French, so the value would only have to be written once (as opposed to having an English value with commas and a French value with periods).

Coming from a Canadian living in an English-speaking community: commas are still widely used here, so I would say this is more of a bilingual/political issue rather than an English-standard issue. And if we applied Canadian-law to Numsita, the fact that we have both an English and a French side means we could use commas in the English titles because both sides are accommodated.

With that being said, I know South Africa also has multiple official languages, and so, if some of them have different standards to punctuate their numbers, using a space would also make sense for them. Again, this could bem a multi-language issue.

The fact that these countries must accomodate for many languages, or that some standards are meant to be international, does not mean this side of Numista is any less English.

Quote: "stratocaster"​​This is out of context. I referred to your personal preference to use "," and clearly explained it in my reply. My personal preference would not be to go for 10 000.

​I disagree with that being out of context (because personal preference goes both ways), and I never said what your preference was (I know yours is the apostrophe, like how mine is also the apostrophe; however, I definitely prefer the comma over the space).

From what I got out of our conversation, there are two main reasons for going with the space:

• In English, using either the space or the comma is acceptable (meaning that, either way, it is a personal preference)
  
• Using the space is more clear from an international perspective (even though this is the English side of the site)
  

However, if you really think what I said was out of context, I will quote our entire conversation below, for complete transparency. I hope you do not mind me doing that--I did not indent to take anything out of context, but if it really appeared that way, this is the only way that will completely clear things up.

Guideline:

• Use a dot (“.”) as decimal separator and an unbreakable space (“ “) as thousand divider for numbers above 10 000:
  

Quote: "Sulfur"I know this is our current format, but this has always seemed very strange to me. Is there any particular reason why we are not using commas?

The only other field that often uses large numbers is the mintage section, which has its digits separated by commas. The two fields should be consistent.

And I found this (2016 Oxford--I could not find something more recent) that says large numbers should be separated by commas (page 7, top right):
https://www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxford/University%20of%20Oxford%20Style%20Guide%20%28updated%20Hilary%20term%202016%29.pdf

I know spaces help when we are talking in multiple languages (because sometimes the comma is a decimal); however, if the titles are supposed to be in English, I think using the English format of commas would not be a problem here.

Quote: "Anonymous"I simply looks really ugly in big fat fonts ... so a no in titles from me too

Quote: "stratocaster"It's a matter of preference. Depending on what you are used to, the other way will look strange. I use 1'000.00, so everything looks strange to me. ISO and BIPM recommend spaces because they avoid any potential confusion between decimal and thousand dividers.

Quote: "Sulfur"I also use apostrophes, but I know that is definitely not a standard way of doing it. x)

If it is a mattern of preference, I think it would make sense to use the more common form (which seems to be commas).

And of course, there will be variation amongst references; however, I know we do use Oxford for words, so I think what they say cannot be discounted (I am not sure how often we use the other two you listed).

With that being said, while avoiding confusion between separators and decimals would make sense in regards to accounting or weights (like for BIPM), I do not think that has much relevance here.

In regards to the face value value, if it gets to the point where we must use a comma, there will likely not be decimal at the end (a denomination of 1,000.50 would not be benefitial to the people using the currency). And in regards to the mintage, we are talking about whole numbers only.

Quote: "Sulfur"Oh, and this also applies to the face value in word form (but that is still basically a repeat of the title). I was told that the title uses spaces while the face value in word form uses commas, which I found very strange.

Regardless, that means this effects three fields. Changing from spaces to commas would be a rather big change (mostly effecting the titles), but I think the robot could do that somewhat easily.

Quote: "stratocaster"I referred to what you said regarding spaces looking strange when I said it's a matter of preference. Numista addresses a general readership from around the world, who is used to different styles. Beyond individual preferences, the use of commas and dots can cause genuine confusion, and make reading harder. I think that's what we should avoid. If clarity were not an issue, I wouldn't mind commas. And by the way, 1'234.56 is the standard style in my country.

Quote: "Sulfur"Ah, I see.

By strange, I meant in regards to the paragraph that followed (there is an obvious inconsistency with the mintage section, which is the only other section that often has long numbers, which is programmed to have commas).

While Numista is international, the written fields are supposed to be in (British) English--I imagine that would include the way the numbers are written. And in English, even if we ignore Oxford, commas are still extremely common.

Either way, to keep consistency, there will either have to be a change in the way we write numbers or the way the numbers are programmed to appear (specifically in the mintage section).

If both are considered equal, perhaps we could do one of those forum poll things to see what the majority thinks?

Quote: "stratocaster"yes, style should be consistent for all fields and free text

Quote: "Sulfur"Just for more consistency:

There are a little over 700 coins with a weight of 1 kilogram or higher. The system processes these numbers with a comma.

And commas are used in price-related sections as well (I know definitely in the previous auction sale section; I have not confirmed the general price section related to grade, but I imagine commas are also used there).
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Quote: "Sulfur"​​In Canada, if official documents are written in English, they must also be written in French (and vise versa). The same logic would apply to our coins; however, that would look quite crowded, hence why we use Latin.

"100 000 dollars" is Latin?

Quote: "stratocaster"

Quote: "Sulfur"The same logic would apply to our coins; however, that would look quite crowded, hence why we use Latin.

​"100 000 dollars" is Latin?

​So, centum milia (ↈ) dolarii?

Quote: "stratocaster"​

Quote: "Sulfur"​​In Canada, if official documents are written in English, they must also be written in French (and vise versa). The same logic would apply to our coins; however, that would look quite crowded, hence why we use Latin.

​"100 000 dollars" is Latin?

Quote: "Sulfur"​In Canada, if official documents are written in English, they must also be written in French (and vise versa). The same logic would apply to our coins; however, that would look quite crowded, hence why we use Latin. And that also explains the appearance of the numbers on the coins: spaces are acceptable in both English and French, so the value would only have to be written once (as opposed to having an English value with commas and a French value with periods).

In Canada, if we use terms that are neutral in both English and French, we avoid having to translate words into the both languages. For numbers, the comma/period is not neutral, so we use the space; our currencies are common in both English and French, so they only need to be written once; and Latin is neither English nor French, so the main legend is, again, neutral.

And like I said before: the fact that some countries must accomodate for many languages does not mean this side of Numista is any less English.