Lost an Issuer, which one?

I recently realized I have a -1 issuer count, also other friend told me same happened, where can I find the recent issuer changes? There are such feature?

Or, which issuer was remover?

Thank you

There is no list of recent changes, however, it was Tatarstan.

Thank you Jarcek

I feel sad buying an expensive Tatarstan :(

Cocos Keeling will me removed too I guess then.

No, actually, Cocos Islands will stay.

Why was Tatarstan removed?

Well, it should not have been there in the first place. Those are just local tokens, and not even currency ones.

Quote: "Jarcek"​Well, it should not have been there in the first place. Those are just local tokens, and not even currency ones.

​Aren't the Cocos (Keeling) Islands coins just tokens as well? Or did they count as currency?

I feel we should have a newsletter thread which gets updated whenever an issuer is created/deleted/merged, to help those who care about how many countries/issuers they have keep track of which ones were affected.

According to this: https://www.money.org/ana-blog/cocos they were used as money on whole island.

About newsletter, I tried a while back, then I lost track a little.

Having as a separate issuers Lundi, Seborga, Abhazia where the coins have never circulated and deleting Tatarstan where the currency was issued by the legitimate authority and widely used as a real currency.

Having as issuers cities like Danzig, Narva, Shkodër and deleting Tatarstan with the area almost equal to Belgium together with Netherlands....

Having, e.g., Greenland and Faroe Islands where local currency was circulated in parallel with Danish and deleting Tatarstan where local currency was circulated in parallel with Russian....

Having German notgelds as separate issuer.....

Having American Samoa as a first level issuer.....

Quite arrogant decision.....

1 Kilo of Bread/10 Litres of Petrol/20 Litres of Petrol - please tell me where is currency in that? These are Tokens comparable to a lot we have in tokens category. Tokens for beer, milk etc..

Nothing else than this designation made this decision, surely not how big the country is or whether we have Lundy in separate micronations section.

And American Samoa minted those coins on their own authority. :)

Actually, it has always been strange to see local tokens (for a non-independent country) among countries.

Quote: "Jarcek"​1 Kilo of Bread/10 Litres of Petrol/20 Litres of Petrol - please tell me where is currency in that? These are Tokens comparable to a lot we have in tokens category. Tokens for beer, milk etc..
​
​Nothing else than this designation made this decision, surely not how big the country is or whether we have Lundy in separate micronations section.
​
​And American Samoa minted those coins on their own authority. :)

​This was initial names, they almost didn't used for this purposes. By fact they used as an equivalent of exact sum of Russian Rubles and were obligatory for accepting for everybody for quite a long period of time.

I understand this decision, but as it was taken, to be consistent all the German and French Notgeld must be also moved into token section, they do not have more reasons to be classified as Standard circulation coins.

Regarding the American Samoa - their currency is US dollar. They do not have a Central Bank. Their coins at Numista catalogue have even grammatical mistakes in country name. It may be classified as private issue only...

Quote: "Grinya"​ Having as a separate issuers Lundi, Seborga, Abhazia where the coins have never circulated and deleting Tatarstan where the currency was issued by the legitimate authority and widely used as a real currency.
​
​Having as issuers cities like Danzig, Narva, Shkodër and deleting Tatarstan with the area almost equal to Belgium together with Netherlands....
​
​Having, e.g., Greenland and Faroe Islands where local currency was circulated in parallel with Danish and deleting Tatarstan where local currency was circulated in parallel with Russian....
​
​Having German notgelds as separate issuer.....
​
​Having American Samoa as a first level issuer.....
​
​Quite arrogant decision.....

​THIS ↑

We have group of 200+ collectors here in Brazil that we activelly discuss world coins in a whastapp chat, we talked about this matter and a lot of us had Tatarstan as an Issuer and we want Tatarstan back!

Some will tell the decision will not affect the collectors since anyone can sort the collection the way they want, I disagree, I (and a lot of other collectors I bet) sort the collection according to Numista.

I feel like, for instance, if Krause decided to mess with the KM# numbers...

PLEASE GIVE US TATARSTAN BACK!

"lot of us had Tatarstan as an Issuer "... question is why you bought a Token and believed that you had a real issuer. Tatarstan was at most local currency in Russia, similar to what you can find in other countries, like local dollars, local Polish currencies etc..

I bought a coin from Tatarstan last year because it is beautifull and it was from an exotic issuer.
How can an issuer exist in one year and not exist more one year later?
In my opnion there arent a precise criteria to create and destroy an issuer.
#Tatarstan

Quote: "Jarcek"Tatarstan was at most local currency in Russia, similar to what you can find in other countries, like local dollars, local Polish currencies etc..

​...German notgelds, French notgelds... Isn't it? Shall they be moved into tokens section?

Quote: "Grinya"​

Quote: "Jarcek"Tatarstan was at most local currency in Russia, similar to what you can find in other countries, like local dollars, local Polish currencies etc..

​​...German notgelds, French notgelds... Isn't it? Shall they be moved into tokens section?

​These were accepted in whole country.

My question would be- What give the person doing these changes, the authority to change it without any form of pre-discussion.
Not long ago, many of us were in the '300' club, but over night, this change went ahead and boom, the '300' club virtually disappeared.
I fully realize that referees give up many hours to keep this brilliant website going, which I very much appreciate, but sometimes, I feel a short discussion on the Forum pages could be helpful.

#givebacktatarstan

People, are you collecting coins to be happy or to satisfy the website? If you like Tatarstan and see it as a separate issuer, what's wrong with having it described as such in your album or coin box? Don't be prisoners of Numista's country list.

Quote: "druzhynets"​People, are you collecting coins to be happy or to satisfy the website? If you like Tatarstan and see it as a separate issuer, what's wrong with having it described as such in your album or coin box? Don't be prisoners of Numista's country list.

​So what is the whole point of the website?

What is the purpose if we should not thrust it.

I have argued the following point many times but always fell on deaf ears.
Lundy is classed as a micronation, but the 'so called coinage' was illegally produced, so, if you changing anything, these items should be re-classified as tokens.
I was given one of these 'tokens' last year, but refuse to add it to my collection until it is officially recognised as a token.

Deaf ears indeed.

If so many people agreed Tatarstan should be listed as an issuer, and there are proofs it was used as local currency. And other issuers like cocos and lundy are listed as well:

Why so much stuborness to modify it?

I always loved the co-op sense of the site, but seems Numista is turning like the other coin sites where one person decides what he wants instead the community will.

I will take another look at those micronations today. Point is that we try to follow some rules for issuer placement.

American Samoa should be listed, because their first issue was legal. In response to that issue, laws were passed to make it illegal for US possessions to issue their own coin. We had this cussed and discussed when I first came to numista. I'm sure the thread still exists.

#givebacktatarstan

Ok, I will list of proposed changes here, just for transparency.

• American Samoa will remain listed, and because it was part of United States territorry before, during and after minting of their coins (which were legal tender), it will be moved under United States section.
  
• Cocos-Keeling islands are to be moved to Tokens - as they were only used in Clunies-Ross' store.  : http://www.chiefacoins.com/Database/Countries/Cocos_(Keeling)_Islands.htm
  
• As Sealand "coins" are not and were not circulating, it will be delisted to Exonumia.
  
• From Lundy, only 1929 coins saw limited circulation, so it should stay within micronations. With that in mind, all later coins should be moved to Exonumia.
  

Yes, I have given another look at Tatarstan, and no, I still se no reason for change.

Ok Jarcek, so what is the Numista Definition/Criteria of "Issuer"?

Quote: "Jarcek"​Ok, I will list of proposed changes here, just for transparency.
​

• American Samoa will remain listed, and because it was part of United States territorry before, during and after minting of their coins (which were legal tender), it will be moved under United States section.
  ​
  
• Cocos-Keeling islands are to be moved to Tokens - as they were only used in Clunies-Ross' store.  : http://www.chiefacoins.com/Database/Countries/Cocos_(Keeling)_Islands.htm
  ​
  
• As Sealand "coins" are not and were not circulating, it will be delisted to Exonumia.
  ​
  
• From Lundy, only 1929 coins saw limited circulation, so it should stay within micronations. With that in mind, all later coins should be moved to Exonumia.
  ​
  

​
​Yes, I have given another look at Tatarstan, and no, I still se no reason for change.
​

​This is problem of Numista classification, this is because the classification changes all the time. It is based in the personal opinion of only ONE person... When the opinion changes, the classification changes too. There is not a rule.
For example, the second issue of Lundy coins did not circulated, but it were issued by the same issuer.
Why the second is exonumia and the first not? Only because circulation? Only personal opinion...



#giveusTataristanback

There actually is full set of rules.

For the sake of simplicity, all following rules apply in time retrospect as well. I will put in Italics explanations for the examples above.

We have basically 4 categories for coin (object made for payment) to be put in.

• Basic list of issuers
  
• Modern states with limited recognition
  
• Micronations
  
• Tokens
  

Other things - coins that were never put into circulation in any area and do not have any official authority that minted them are coins only in our fantasies, and thus belong among fantasy issues within exonumia.
(This is where Lundy distinction comes from. Any other issues made after 1929 are just fantasies.)

About micronations - while their authority is dubious, they managed to get their coins into circulation in some defined area. (While this is mostly because of inaction of country they are within, circulation is what makes it different from fantasies.)

Modern states with limited recognition - one of the most trickiest categories. Modern politics are arguably one of the most dividing topics among world population, so it was decided that countries in the main list are either history or have UN membership. (Decision was made to not include Vatican, because it has all what it needs for UN membership, but simply chose not to enter, and it is thus in the main list.)

Tokens are objects that were used as a form of payment for goods and services within certain area. (This makes a cut from exonumia.)
If the certain area is the whole country in which they were made in (In other words, they were used as a currency for the whole country.), they are included in the main list. If they circulated only in smaller area within one country they stay in tokens. (This puts notgeld up and also objects for having Tatarstan, as those Tokens did not circulated in whole Russia.)
If they are only exchangeable for certain goods, they stay in Tokens category. (This excludes all those Bread/Milk/Beer tokens. This is the case of Tatarstan as well.)

Main list thus encompasses everything else. Any polity that made coins for circulation or given their coins face value (this includes modern NCLT) and made those coins for its whole area and for their inhabitants (or NCLT buyers of course ) is included in the main list of issuers. This includes notgeld as it supplemented or completely replaced normal currency and it was valid within whole area of given country.

Numista does not derive its list from any catalogue, even though Krause catalogue served as a basis for its creation. All placements and rules for issuer placement are subject to change.

Quote: "Jarcek"All placements and rules for issuer placement are subject to change.

​Ok.
If is the Numista main rules, is the Numista main rules.

Quote: "Jarcek"

• As Sealand "coins" are not and were not circulating, it will be delisted to Exonumia.​
  

​Whether Sealand coins are or were circulating isn't important at all. Otherwise all the non-circulating coins from every country have to be moved to exonumia. The only important question is: are/were these coins legal tender. That's the only criterium to decide whether an issuer belongs to the main list or to exonumia.

Quote: "Jarcek"​Tokens are objects that were used as a form of payment for goods and services within certain area. (This makes a cut from exonumia.)
[...] If they circulated only in smaller area within one country they stay in tokens. (This puts notgeld up and also objects for having Tatarstan, as those Tokens did not circulated in whole Russia.)
​If they are only exchangeable for certain goods, they stay in Tokens category. (This excludes all those Bread/Milk/Beer tokens. This is the case of Tatarstan as well.)

​So, this should mean that Tatarstan classifies to the Micronation list, right? Since they were accepted in whole of Tatarstan, which is a part of Russia. Or did I read this part wrong?:

Quote: "Jarcek"About micronations - while their authority is dubious, they managed to get their coins into circulation in some defined area.

Quote: "ngdawa"​​​So, this should mean that Tatarstan classifies to the Micronation list, right? Since they were accepted in whole of Tatarstan, which is a part of Russia. Or did I read this part wrong?:​

​
In Canada, near the end of World War II, there were some meat ration tokens issued. Here is the page for this type: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces50617.html.

These blue cardboard tokens were valid all throughout Canada, and are actually quite common (I see them in junk bins all the time). Even so, they could only be exchanged for meat.

So... should we include those in the main country list, under Canada?

I'd think not. They do not even have a denomination--eight tokens equal a full ration, but how much that ration is... I am not quite certain. Seeing these within Canada's main country list would be extremely odd, I would think, because they do not belong there. And Jarek's explaination explains why this type is currently in the Tokens section:

Quote: "Jarcek"​​If they are only exchangeable for certain goods, they stay in Tokens category. (This excludes all those Bread/Milk/Beer tokens. This is the case of Tatarstan as well.)

Which brings me to the point I would like to make: if we do, in fact, list Tatarstan as its own country, with its coins being those tokens exchangable for bread or petrol, should we also move those Canadian meat ration tokens to the main catalogue?

I am sure there are more comparible examples in other countries--this is just the one I know best.

I perfectly understand why Tatarstan was moved to the Tokens section, and I do hope it stays there.

But they had notes...that were not labeled for a specific item...

I am not an expert in the Tatarstan coinage, but do the coins were only used to trade for bread and oil?

Or do they could be used in the market in general?

They were used in general in parallel with Russian money. Their values were equal to some amount in Russian rubles. All the companies in Tatarstan MUST accept them. Their value was guaranteed by the Government of Tatarstan

Quote: "Jarcek"​If the certain area is the whole country in which they were made in (In other words, they were used as a currency for the whole country.), they are included in the main list. If they circulated only in smaller area within one country they stay in tokens.

​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces146869.html

Shall it be moved into tokens? As well as the German notgelds

Quote: "Sulfur"​​In Canada, near the end of World War II, there were some meat ration tokens issued. Here is the page for this type: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces50617.html.
​
​These blue cardboard tokens were valid all throughout Canada, and are actually quite common (I see them in junk bins all the time). Even so, they could only be exchanged for meat.

But that's the thing. Those token could only be exchanged for meat. The Tatari "tokens" were used to buy all kinds of goods, not just bread and petrol. Just like Grinya said:

Quote: "Grinya"​They were used in general in parallel with Russian money. Their values were equal to some amount in Russian rubles. All the companies in Tatarstan MUST accept them. Their value was guaranteed by the Government of Tatarstan

​
Therefore this statement doesn't concern Tatarstan:

Quote: "Jarcek"​​If they are only exchangeable for certain goods, they stay in Tokens category. (This excludes all those Bread/Milk/Beer tokens. This is the case of Tatarstan as well.)