Empire of Trebizond [solved]

A few weeks ago this coin was identified for me, but I couldn't add it to the catalog because the issuer wasn't there (https://en.numista.com/forum/topic72275.html). Any progress with adding it to Numista?

Added to next meeting for creation approval.

Quote: "Jarcek"​Added to next meeting for creation approval.

​Thank you!

One of the admins has some personal problems, so the meeting is still not even set. In the meantime, feel free to add those coins under Byzantine Empire, let the referees know about this thread and mark them accordingly.

I also uploaded a coin from Trebizond some time back;
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces140697.html
so I'll be watching this space

Quote: "Bitteswell"​I also uploaded a coin from Trebizond some time back;
​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces140697.html
​so I'll be watching this space

​Oh ! So you are the other one who owns this coins

Please have a look on this post : https://en.numista.com/forum/topic72484.html
Yours seems to be a georgian imitation as well.

Yup, I'm the one. And I don't know whether to be devastated or thrilled to be told that my precious Trapezuntine is a Georgian Imitation. I expect you are right. I looked at the imitations in Zeno, and mine seems to fit. Well, should we wait for Dato to create a space for them and then switch mine to Georgia? That's OK with me.
Does anyone know anymore about them? Was it just John II that was imitated, or other Emperors? And why?
Lots of questions!
James

Quote: "Bitteswell"​Yup, I'm the one. And I don't know whether to be devastated or thrilled to be told that my precious Trapezuntine is a Georgian Imitation. I expect you are right. I looked at the imitations in Zeno, and mine seems to fit. Well, should we wait for Dato to create a space for them and then switch mine to Georgia? That's OK with me.
​Does anyone know anymore about them? Was it just John II that was imitated, or other Emperors? And why?
​Lots of questions!
​James

​I believe Dato will know.

There are two main types - imitation of Manuel aspers, and imitations of John II aspers.

Even name - " Kirmaneuli", - there is a version , that it comes form " Kyr Manuel" ( King Manuel in Greece ) , which transformed into the KIRMANEULI later.
Sorry, I dont have a time to start new branch in the catalog, but I will do it 100%, just please wait a bit.
Imitations of Trepizonid aspers are part of Georgian Numismatics, and should be tagged under Georgia, of course.
Thanks,
David

Quote: "Bitteswell"​Yup, I'm the one. And I don't know whether to be devastated or thrilled to be told that my precious Trapezuntine is a Georgian Imitation. I expect you are right. I looked at the imitations in Zeno, and mine seems to fit. Well, should we wait for Dato to create a space for them and then switch mine to Georgia? That's OK with me.
​Does anyone know anymore about them? Was it just John II that was imitated, or other Emperors? And why?
​Lots of questions!
​James

The Georgian kings and the byzantine family were for a long time quite close to each other.

After the sack of Constantinople by the crusader armies in 1204 (4th crusade), Alexios Komnenos, son of the Byzantine emperor Manuel Komnenos, proclaimed himself emperor and created the Empire of Trebizond in the Nothern part of what remained of the Byzantine empire : this land became a fiefdom of the Kings of Georgia.

Later, internal troubles pop up in Georgia, Mongols started to attack the Kingdom and dismiss the georgian monarchy.

Around 1259, David VI, son of the regnant Queen of Georgia, and his cousin David VII decided to rule on the western part of Georgia (the other part was under Mongol occupation) : Georgia was consequently split in half.

Georgians had slowly lost their influence in the Trebizond court in the past years so David VI tried to take back the city of Trebizond in 1282 but didn't succeed.
During this campaign he occupied several provinces, therefore a lot of Trebizond coins started to circulate in the western part of Georgia.
The aspers of the current ruler of Trebizond John II and the ones of Manuel that were still in circulation become popular and probably served as a base of the currency in the western part of Georgia.
Georgians modified a bit the design by added the star of David and slightly transformed the figure of Saint Eugenios (Trebizond's patron saint) into St George .

We can compare this to the Hephthalites (a hunnic tribal confederation) that started to mint degenerated drachms of Peroz I after receiving a big tribut from the sassanid empire when they captured the emperor Peroz I.

Any rectifications are welcomed

Thanks for all that Cycnos. I hadn't realised that the Georgians were quite so influential in Trebizond, although I knew of the family connection with Queen Tamar of course. Alexios and David were the sons of a Manuel it is true, but he was never Emperor, only the son of Andronikos who was briefly Emperor. Andronikos was the cousin of the Emperor Manuel I think.
I looked at the coin again and compared it with the one on Wildwinds. Mine has the star on the right of the Emperor's figure, down near his feet, - and therefore a Georgian production. Must say, it does add to the interest of the coin. I must let the dealer know about it!
Again, many thanks.

Quick question - do we have a coin in catalogue that will be moved to newly created Trebizond?

Quote: "Jarcek"​Quick question - do we have a coin in catalogue that will be moved to newly created Trebizond?

​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces140697.html and https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces93285.html should be moved, although we had a discussion in this thread on the first one and it may go under Georgia I guess as a Georgian imitation.

yes, second one is Georgian Kirmaneuli Tetri, - imitation of Trebizonid Asper

Quote: "Dato Mikeladze"​yes, second one is Georgian Kirmaneuli Tetri, - imitation of Trebizonid Asper
​

​First one on the Arusak links, cf. https://en.numista.com/forum/topic72484.html

I agree about the second one who was minted in the Trebizond Empire.

Flag : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_de_Tr%C3%A9bizonde#/media/File:Komnenos-Trebizond-Arms.svg
Country map : Turkey
Issuer of the Byzantin Empire.

It is now up. Remember, first coin has to be moved from elsewhere, not created.

Quote: "Jarcek"​It is now up. Remember, first coin has to be moved from elsewhere, not created.

​Modification request now submitted for that coin. And thank you for creating the issuer.