1876 Finland 50 pennia

I am interested in selling or trading this coin, U.S. cash or gold.  If anyone has questions, suggestions, interests, ideas, or offers - let me know.  

I hate to do this, but I'm going to call shenanigans.  According to Krause, this coin had a mintage of 600, and is worth between $7,000.00 and $15,000.00:  

http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/WorldCoinPrices.aspx?category=19130&worldcoinid=60297

Looking closely at the obverse, there appears to be an alteration to the date, or something else going on with the "6".  I think it was either an 1874 altered to look like an 1876, or it is just entirely fake.  

I'd suggest sending it in to a grading service if you really think it  is genuine.  

LOL, if you cannot believe it, it must be a fake, or you should discredit it?  Seriously?  

NGC Coin ID: 3479483-001; do they create coin identifications with a guarantee of authenticity for fake coins?  I just recieved it back from the NGC a few weeks ago.  I have been debating having it "restored" in order to bring an actual graded value to it.  As it turns out, I'll sell it, or trade it, as is.  It's real.  This coin forum was the first place I found agreeable to attempt to gain more information regarding the coin, as well as a potential network to manage the coins future.  Feel free to lop mud at my sharing this, it will move itself just fine without your help.    

"Not suitable for certification":

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3479483-001

To me that means that NGC doesn't know whether or not it is genuine, or that there is extensive man-made damage to the coin.  Perhaps, if you think its genuine, you should get it conserved.  If NGC won't grade it otherwise, its practically worthless.  No one is going to lay down anywhere close to $7K without third-party grading.

Besides, looking at comparisons I see online, something is wrong with that 6.

Share a link with me, if you will, that link which shows another 1876 50 pennia - so that I may see the six in a form which differs from the coin I have........

http://www.ngccoin.com/details/artifical-and-counterfeit-coins-ngc-will-not-grade.aspx

This link defines how the NGC describes artificial or counterfeit coins, none of these descriptions were attached to my coin on the status regarding the coin at the NGC site...  

I bet you can contact the NGC directly and likely even find out who processed my coin as well as how they verified the authenticity.    

Not trying to be a douche, but I've seen falsified NGC rejection slips before, and I've seen real 50 pennias.  As far as I'm concerned, if I'm going to be putting down well north of $1,000.00 for a coin, I'm going to see it in a slab that I can verify through NGC.  Call me cynical, but scammers in this world think numismatists are idiots -- and maybe with good reason.

As for another image of another coin, try this:

http://dewardt.net/dimebook/Finland.pdf

Look at the 1869 50 Pennia, and tell me that the 6 doesn't look completely different.  

And here, for comparison, is a chinese fake:

http://www.jinghuashei.com/uploadimage/product/1092123311129294.jpg

That's why my advice -- in all good faith an honesty -- is to have it conserved and then graded by NGC if you want to sell it.  Because nicely-toned chinese fakes of this coin abound, you won't sell it for more than a pittance unless it is in a slab and has a pedigree.

The "six" on your example of the Chinese fake is crooked, but not the "six" on mine.       The "s" is dislocated on your Chinese example, but not on mine.      The "six" on mine is indeed original and fit with regard to it's placement and form, but you may also notice that the 'fat' sides of the "eight" are very similar to the design of the 'fat' areas of the curve of the "six"; especially look at the left sides of each, the "six" and the "eight" - on my original coin they share unique 'calligraphy' style of design, that particular design seemed a bit complicated to replicate in your Chinese example.       I see a lot of variables between the false example and my own authentic coin.   The Chinese coin and my own are not comparable.  

And so you have seem real 50 pennia coins, BUT you have NOT seen a real 1876 50 pennia, so you must behave as if it cannot be true!?  It is true.  It is clear to me that this particular coin of my own has not been available for a while, maybe not since internet networks have formed, hence the lack of any other photo of the genuine coin by which I might compare my own!   Please share a link that provides a photo of this coin, an 1876, and feel free to let me know when the last time ANYONE shared one, sold one, or even posted a photo of one......     I think you are a ******, simply because you boldly claim me and my coin to be a hoax and fake.  BUT I appreciate you challenging me, as this is my first attempt at feeling out the atmosphere of the coin, the potential market of the coin, and also that you have introduced me simultaneously to the weak field of actual knowledge regarding the coin and of its actual availability.    

My coin is in VF to XF condidtion, but the NGC describes that the certification and value of the coins they authenticate are not soley based upon the "Detail Grade" - as detail grades may be affected by detrimental surface condition; my coin is tarnished and also has slight discoloration, a sort of reddish color which is yet unidentified, therefore it has not recieved a "Ceritified Value".  Knowing that the coin may do well with some further research to establish the peak of it's true value, I am betting that it clears the book value of $15,000, especially considering how rare it may actually be per this moment (I cannot find another photo of this authentic coin mintage anywhere on-line).

The more I prod into the matters of this coin and realize it's rarity the more I will hope to profit from it.  As for the moment I am sure of it's authenticity, and am open to another having the oppertunity to profit as well - while the margin of potential seems flexible.  Maybe your challenges to me will be the keys to realizing the absolute value of the coin, and at that time I will pray that you are a collector of Finland coins and that you may wish to add this to your own collection; at which point you will find that I am asking more than you'll want to pay, more than I would satisfyingly negotiate for it at this point.

[Insulting word removed by Xavier]

Hey, not being a douche, just saying I have good reason to be skeptical, and I don't think anyone's going to pay anything substantial without NGC or PCGS certification after conservation.  I hope for your sake it is real, because that would be a treasure for any collector to have.

As for me, if I was going to spend that much on a coin, I'd try for an 1825 Constantine ruble.

In short, a genuine coin of this value should only be bought or sold through a  reputable auction house, such as in the UK Spinks.

If its genuine, take it to a suitable auction house, they will guarantee its authenticity before selling it (without charge) and it will realise its full worth being bought by a buyer who knows they are getting the real McCoy.

Anyone who buys large value coins privately (with or without "professional grading certificates") is a fool, and they are easily parted from their money.

Matt

Here is one I found on the internet:

I'm fairly certain that's a chinese fake.

The patinas on these coins are good -- too good.  It looks like someone roasted both the OP's coin and the one you just posted above a camp fire, or covered them in charcoal and cooked them in the oven on broil.

People should be very careful swapping with members who don't have stars, and this is an extreme example of how scammers try to con people online, its very easy to lie when you can write whatever you want. I am sure you could have gotten a "great deal" out of this guy and it would have been to good to be true.

  PS Hey dummy people are not that stupid, plus everyone will listen to tewcd you should have just canceled your account when he first called your bluff.

good luck an trying to sell that???  

Sorry, I don't think anyone here was being a ******, just cynical.  If I bought every rare, one-of-a-kind coin that I saw on the internet, I'd have the nicest counterfeit collection available.  

You're assuming that an internet site of relatively anonymous people who trade -- let's face it -- pocket change and some minor silver pieces with each other would be willing to hand you a check for $4,000 for a coin that's not even in a slab.  

I don't think anyone here was trying to be mean, your offer sounds crazy and unbelievable.  If you show us a big check for the coin, great!  I wish you the best in your auction, and I guarantee everyone here will both eat crow and simultaneously worship at your feet.

Seriously, though.  We're a community that's based on trust, and you sign up without anyone really having interacted with you or knowing who you are -- you have no recorded swaps -- and you expect someone to hand you a check?  Only two types of people would think that was reasonable -- the colossally naive, and some huckster who's trying to fool one of the colossally naive.

[Insulting word removed by Xavier]

By the way, all the information you got about Heritage Auctions can be gotten pretty quickly by reading their website for 5 minutes.  I'm going to call the number for Brad Meadows tomorrow, and just for sh*ts and giggles, I'll ask him if he's talked to someone about an ultra-rare 1876 50 pennia.

I wonder what he'll say?

Look, just because you've pitched a deal to Brad and he hasn't seen the coin -- that doesn't mean anything.  

When you sell your coin for $5,000.00 or more, then I'll retract something.

Hello OE,

I truely hope your coin is real and that it brings all the value you are hoping for.
Having said that, you need not cuss fellow members.
Every collector with any time in the hobby has bought a fake that they were sure was real at the time or paid way to much for a real coin.  
Matt was right, a coin of the value of the one you hold needs to be handled by a auction house with experts that can varify that it is real.
I don't think you will find a buyer here. Anyone who has that kind of money to spend, would surely need it checked by a profesional, or at least want to hold it in their hand first.

Additionally, OE, what makes me so certain in my gut (although admittedly, that's a very vague feeling of certainty) --- what makes me doubt this coin with its Chinese-import blurred heraldic lion on the breastplate the most -- is how certain you are that the coin is real.

Any numismatist worth his salt will always have a doubt -- always admit to a degree -- that the valuable coins in his collection could be counterfeits (either modern or contemporary).  Every numismatist knows that likely, somewhere in his collection, there is a counterfeit.  See for example the lady on another thread who had what is most likely a contemporary counterfeit locked in her grandfather's collection for more than 30 years.  

What makes your story so tragically bad is that you haven't let doubt enter into it at all.  You didn't approach us with "do you think this is real", you approached this board with "THIS IS REAL. IT NEEDS CLEANING.  HOW MUCH GOLD AND/OR CASH WILL YOU GIVE ME FOR IT".  The old "well, I was going to give you a deal of a lifetime, but if you don't take it I'm going to take it to somewhere that's REALLY going to give me my moneys' worth" trick is as old as time.  

Think about this logically.  If you really had a coin like this, why sell it for $4,000.00 here when you could get $5,000 or more (allegedly) at an auction house, and lose only 10%?  You'd still be getting a ton of money from a reputable middle-man, and you'd get the likely possibility that bidding will exceed your expectations (as is common in auction houses).  

Instead, you want to make your money off some dope who you hope will cash all his treasury bonds to wire you a check, and you'll send him what appears to be a pewter piece of garbage.  Have you ever considered a career selling annuities to people in old folks' homes?

Like ctucker says, I truly hope you get something off this, if its real.  I also truly hope that if its a fake, and you know it, then you're just some poor schlub that paid too much for it and you're trying to get this monkey off your back and onto someone else's.  I truly hope that because if you're a tried-and-true, dyed-in-the-wool con artist, there's a special place in hell for you.

What do we know about this coin (and you)?  We know you're certain about its provenance.  Instead of being the least bit uncertain about it, and admitting that even NGC has a 2-5% error rate, you're certain.  And a certain man is a dangerous man, because certainty isn't a strength, it's a human flaw.

Where did he go? I wanted to see if anyone bought it.

I have a set of 24 kt gold US quarters (one of a kind, of course) that I've been wanting to sell. hahahahaha

ctucker,

I'll buy your quarters for 24 cents each!  

i give you this for that coin???

heres one too

says it was found in a barn in maine inside a tin can and sold for 2,200 u.s. dollars

seems to have the same red spot his has hymmmmmm

his appears to be the arcane maine example if he is him then yes its real  becouse theyre obviosly the same coin as documented in the find

ogramz what did you "pay" for that "rare coin" ???  

Quote: ctuckerWhere did he go? I wanted to see if anyone bought it.

I have a set of 24 kt gold US quarters (one of a kind, of course) that I've been wanting to sell. hahahahaha

 I want some gold quarters! I have a petrified unicorn turd I would be willing to part with

  Really though, new people should have to read this thread as a warning to the temptation of "it sounds to good to be true"  About every week some poor numista member seems to get ripped off by some new guy who only had mint silver coins to swap.  Please be careful people.

Quote: 0gramzseems to have the same red spot his has hymmmmmm

 good eye for the red dot!

Yeah, I keep all my multi-thousand dollar coins in cheap cardboard flips...

Truth be told tewcd,

As funny as your comment is, I myself have a $1700 pure gold Canadian coin in a cheap cardboard flip. If you want proof, I can take a picture.

By the way, as harsh as any member is, I'd like to say that you all are very kind and uhh good job.

Haha, ok, proven wrong.  I never told this guy he was full of crap until he started getting on me about being skeptical.  Call me crazy, but I think skepticism is healthy.

all im saying is that its the same example as the one found in maine owned by lawrence gary says there were nails in the tin it was found that could explain the red blotches on the coin

Has "Lawrence Gary" ever had his coin certified or checked out?  If you look at that Arcane Maine site the deal is similar to here -- "Getting this certified would have cost way too much [$15.00] and taken way too long [30 days], so we thought we'd offer it here for a real steal of a deal!"

I mean, I'm not discounting that this could have been found in Maine.  But why would an American WWII vet have brought back a Finnish coin from 1876, when said vet could not possibly have been within 1000 kilometers of Finland.  Aside from that, this coin was known to be valuable to numismatists as early as the 1930's, and I wouldn't be surprised a bit if Europe was flooded with contemporary or slightly less contemporary counterfeits.

look at the wing and the lions foot matching dots as his is

See this link for more affirmation that I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4hn3RcmBpXEJ:arcanemaine.com/word/archives/595+%22lawrence+gary%22+arcane+maine&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Interesting...the page was on Arcane Maine's website, and they posted where someone called this a fake, and then AM said they would have it certified on or about October 28, 2011.  The posting was around until January 12, 2012...which was 8 days before OE made his first posting here:

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic6248.html

Sounds to me like Arcane Maine sent it to get certified, NGC shrugged their shoulders and said they didn't want to deal with such a complicated coin because of condition and the possibility of being a contemporary counterfeit, so they did the lazy thing by not slabbing it but sending it back in an "ungradeable" flip.  

I think this is terrible form on NGC's part, but they probably aren't equipped to verify this sort of rare coin.  

Regardless, my theory is that "Lawrence Gary" is OriginalEarthling, and he'd just gotten some bad news from NGC, so now he's trying to pawn off a questionable coin on anyone who will trade him gold or pay cash.  

sounds like a good theory but with no other examples to compare it too how would ngc authenticate it maybe someone needs to come up with 1 of the other 599 to compare it too

You have a good point, which is why I'm not discounting that this could be real.  I think NGC would probably have a few books or electronic resources that could help them, but likely the only way you'll get this certified for sure is to find a few Finnish coin experts and have them take a whack at it.  

[EDIT] I'm pretty sure that the coin shop mentioned on AM's website is just as knowledgeable about Russo-finnish imprints from the 1870's as they are about brain surgery.  That's no offense intended to them, but 99% of coin dealers are going to see this coin and think the following things, in this order: "1) I wonder what the melt value is?, 2) Well, wait, I'd better check Krause first before I send it to a refinery....3) Holy Crap I don't know anything about this...I'd better refer this guy to NGC."

My only point was that with a coin that's potentially going to cost you $8,000.00 to buy, you have to be as critical and skeptical as possible.  This guy wasn't open to any skepticism at all.  Interestingly, Arcane Maine has removed the criticism of the coin from their website as of a few days ago, and the website says the coin is "still in the grading process".

well someone only bid 2200 so its not worth as much as they think it is only what someone will pay i guess itll go down as another one of those mythical coins that people dont believe exist

Quote: SmartOneKgTruth be told tewcd,

As funny as your comment is, I myself have a $1700 pure gold Canadian coin in a cheap cardboard flip. If you want proof, I can take a picture.

By the way, as harsh as any member is, I'd like to say that you all are very kind and uhh good job.

Seriously, SmartOne, I will buy you a simple self-slab or air-tite holder for that.  I know this isn't true of you, but if someone else told me they stored a coin worth more than $500 in a cardboard flip, I'd assume they live under a bridge.

Really?

Could you also buy one for my $2000 1000 Cash from 1851?

Haha, I mean, they're like $5.00 at the most from Wizard Coin Supply.  I'm just joking with you...I have a pretty caustic sense of humor sometimes.

I have to agree with them, Smartone. An Air-tite can be found in almost any size you want and they are only a couple of dollars. If one of the coins you spoke of was to fall off a shelf or rub the staple in another flip it could cost you a lot more

Nobody bought the coin on eBay from the AM related attempt at selling.

AM was my first attempt at finding a local outlet regarding the sale of the coin.

Of course my photos of the coin here match the pics from the AM article and associated attempt at selling it on eBay; it is the same coin, mine from the start - this forum was simply the final attempt at selling it privately, I prefer a system that does not involve a middle man;  why have others profit just for making something available, especially if that something is already quite available.  But whatever, right?!

The "red" stuff on the coin my be pvc (or something - so I'm told) - hence NGC not offering a final grade (at least not until I agree to have it conserved).  As I was not in contact with the NGC directly they sent it back to the coin shop that sent it out for me, so that I may decide where to go from here, and at my own pace.

Truth is, now that AM has removed the pics of my coin, you cannot find a single photo of a genuine 1876 50p online, not at all, except mine.  Can you?  LOL!   So it makes sense to me that you are all may be skeptics, though being cynical is nearly as rediculous as myself engaging the cynicism with angst.

I am sorry that I have ZERO experience selling coins.  I have never interacted with the likes of you "PROS".  You have taught me something though, and the lesson came fast; I am truly amonst dicks on this planet, and that endless story sprawls in all directions.  I am like you, in that I am quick to spout at the mouth.  Unlike you, I am of an Original sort of being, not naive as you suggest, and not taking advantage of any one that has not offered a civilized advantage to be shared.  Some of the folks I have met here are prime examples of the demise of humanity, that's fine as well, it is a familiar sensation.

So, I have the privlage of sharing a very rare coin with all of you, and that is too good to be true.  Turns out it is true though.

If my one potential private sale does not pan out - you'll see it in the rare and ancient coin auction at HA at the very end of April.

I hope that some of you are only as skeptical as you seem to be due to your own interest in the coin, then maybe you can have fun trying to outbid each other in a couple months at Heritage Auction.

  ;)

This is just the type of bad-tempered "rant" that I find particularly distasteful. If you have something serious to contribute to this forum then please feel free to participate as part of the Numista community. If all you have to offer is the type of drivel you posted above then please take your slurs and snide remarks elsewhere.

thank you radrick007 well spoken , they type of person makes me  

I think he is just looking for attention. Having been told that most people would only (if they had the money) buy a coin like this one from an auction house, he continues to insist on pressing his angle.

Maybe he will go away, if noone answers his call.
 

Pekka From Finland!

50 penniä 1876 is not genuine.Very bad Chinece face.Value is 0 dollars.Do not buy.

Pekka, can you find us a picture of what a real 1876 50 Pennia looks like?  I'm curious.

HI!

No,no tomorrow they all know how to make a real one.

Pekka

HI!

If you do not believe me, do so, but everybody numismatis person in Finland knows it is fake.
I close this matter now.

Quote: pekkaHi !  If you do not believe me, do so, but everybody numismatis person in Finland knows it is fake.  I close this matter now.

What !?!!
All that was asked - on behalf of all of us - is that we want to see what a real coin looks like.
As numismatists.
Nowhere in the message to which you took offence, does it ever say anything upsetting.
If you do not have such a picture, then that is alright. Just asking, nothing more !!
And this is your first day on here too.        

if wanting to authenticate truly, someone should get a hold of smithsonian to verify its authenticity. if anyone would know i would say they would know. then there wouldn't be an issue if fake or not. if it were mine that's what i would do. who knows if it were real they might even make an offer on it. problem solved. but no-one should go around trying to pass it off for gold or platinum - if it's not certified claiming it's real when grading service even appeared clueless. that's just shady business. but when authenticated i'm sure someone would talk deals then. but if it were real who in their right mind would want to swap it. unless you're dead broke then i'd understand. what i really want to know is if there are any certified issues known to exist, or when the last one was known to appear. if not then i'd consider it 1 of a kind, even though many more were minted, probably majority had been melted down. so does anyone have details of prior certified ones known to exist. in my searches i've came up empty-handed - can't find a single one .i'll check over the grading systems population data again but i have a feeling i just won't find another. i bet some government vault or ruler's private collection contains one somewhere though, but then again you'd think they'd leave a breadtrail of it's existence. but nothing so far.

Quote: 0gramzif wanting to authenticate truly, someone should get a hold of smithsonian to verify its authenticity. if anyone would know i would say they would know. then there wouldn't be an issue if fake or not. if it were mine that's what i would do. who knows if it were real they might even make an offer on it. problem solved. but no-one should go around trying to pass it off for gold or platinum - if it's not certified claiming it's real when grading service even appeared clueless. that's just shady business. but when authenticated i'm sure someone would talk deals then. but if it were real who in their right mind would want to swap it. unless you're dead broke then i'd understand. what i really want to know is if there are any certified issues known to exist, or when the last one was known to appear. if not then i'd consider it 1 of a kind, even though many more were minted, probably majority had been melted down. so does anyone have details of prior certified ones known to exist. in my searches i've came up empty-handed - can't find a single one .i'll check over the grading systems population data again but i have a feeling i just won't find another. i bet some government vault or ruler's private collection contains one somewhere though, but then again you'd think they'd leave a breadtrail of it's existence. but nothing so far.

thank you ogramz

I appreciate your practical input, ogramz.  I know nothing of coins in general, though I have learned a bit through this particular experience.   I found precisely the same complex issues regarding this coin; NOBODY has a genuine example for me to compare to, and I dare (reasonable) suggest that no one has handled a collection containing this coin for a very long time, and so far I've actually had a difficult time researching it....  I'VE DUG AND DUG, YET NOTHING!!!!      I figure that I am holding a genuine artifact on the basis of the condition and circumstance upon my original encounter with the coin.  I shall proceed to probe, and I hope to come back here with good news.  In the mean time I apologize to the folks that I have replied to with such fierce defense regarding the coin - but I do truly believe that it is genuine, and will proceed to investigate the matter.  Suggestions like that of ogramz are the reason I came to this forum - if not to sell the coin (which may have my my most foolish angle of approach - but as I admitted, I am ignorant of these details), than to learn about the coin and it's potential market (as well as other less valuable coins of mine - which I know little to nothing regarding, which I have not researched much, yet...).

So please, rather than remind me that you feel it is a fake, or pelt me with your unfounded "sureness" that it is not authentic, as several folks have, please assist this adventure. I have now, since this recent post, considered the suggestion of ogramz, and I am pondering the capacity of a University in Finland to have the resource and network to sort this out.  I am actually flat broke, I have 6 children, and I got excited at the thought of a quick sale (the most I've ever earned independently is less than $20,000 in one year, so a potential sudden income of multiple thousand dollars is stimulating....) - I've gone in the hole over $250 so far with costs associated with my hopes of getting the value of it determined - and still, as far as I am able to understand, nothing is sure until I see sensible, substantial, credible evidence that I am indeed hold and genuine OR counterfeit coin (I lack that, or any evidence whatsoever; so far the indication is that it's fake, on the basis of the "saying so" of folks that know as little about the coin as I do).

Quote: ZacUK

Quote: pekkaHi !  If you do not believe me, do so, but everybody numismatis person in Finland knows it is fake.  I close this matter now.

What !?!!
All that was asked - on behalf of all of us - is that we want to see what a real coin looks like.
As numismatists.
Nowhere in the message to which you took offence, does it ever say anything upsetting.
If you do not have such a picture, then that is alright. Just asking, nothing more !!
And this is your first day on here too.        

I believe what he was trying to say is that numismatists from Finland can tell it's a fake but that if he were to disclose exactly what the giveaway details were, then by tomorrow the counterfeiters would have adjusted their dies accordingly.

It's the same with Carson City Morgan dollars. These are widely faked because of their value but as there are only a few dies in use at any given time there are distinguishing features which are clear to the series experts. This information used to be passed down to us lesser mortals via several coin forums until it was realised that the forgers were using the articles to improve their process.

according to the Finnish site i was reading none are believed to exist. my pics are of two known copies - one more obviously poor example and another better known forgery. i think it was considered workshop 1 forgery and all the good ones have same detail as it does, thus done from same workshop. i guess they can tell because on the 1876 it was a crossover of its own, and all copies use later date backs with older fronts or vice versa, and thats what gives it away. say they make a forgery with a dotted border, that's a dead giveaway, or 1916 s front manipulated. said two main things of forger mess up is the mint mark and the coat of arms  

see where the mintmark placement is on authentic 50 pennia

Hello, Lawrence Gary - Owner of Arcane Maine here.

I am certain that you may think that the original poster was me, and it is fine if you continue to believe as much, but the fact is this is not the case. The owner of this coin is a good friend of mine, and admittedly not well versed on the consistency of skepticism in the numismatic field. I personally do not deal with coins, but I do commonly deal with antiques and have a good understanding of potential buyer's expectations from valuable items.

I appreciate those that took the time to give reasonable feedback, and I also appreciate the responsible skepticism presented here. Just the same, (due to the giggles and unicorn droppings), I am compelled to add my bit in support of my friend.

At Arcane Maine we are treasure hunters and more. Generally we dig up old bottles and the like, and if they sell, great, for that will fuel the soccer mom van that gets us to each location.
Late fall last year my friend got access to a location, a barn that dated back to the 1890's. Generally we look under the barn, or around for old privys in search for treasure. During our search we found a tin of nails in which you could see a few coins, and once dumped out found a good bunch of foreign coins, mostly junk not even worth face value. Still, we were excited, we found money, what better treasure than that? Of course neither of us had any idea what, if any, value was attached. It was thru my friend's research that he came upon the potential value of this coin, so with a smile we took it to our local coin dealer. Of course they were able to give an eyeball grade, but were unable to authenticate, and told us that we would need to send it to NGC to get it authenticated and slabbed. We found an NGC licensed dealer, and when we went to visit them with the coin they weighed it, did a silver acid test and so forth but were unable to verify to their satisfaction. We followed through and paid the 50 bucks to send it in. Several long weeks later the coin dealership called us saying that the NGC was unable to grade the coin, but that it was in fact authentic and they would be willing to sell it. Based on how poorly they had dealt with us we felt that we should simply get the coin back and auction it or sell it to a private dealer. From there a good friend recommended Heritage Auctions, and contacting them they told us that they would be able to further authenticate the coin and grade it for auction. This sounded official and reasonable, so we sent it in. Upon receiving the coin they took it out of the NGC sleeve, handled it, looked at it, showed it to "experts" and so forth, and determined that it must be made of aluminum, and as such must be fake. They then sent the coin back,..

Today we took the coin to a metal industrial plant that has a device that allows them to point at a metal object and determine what it is composed of. We told them the story, and they were pleased to point their device at the coin, and found that the coin was made up of 76% silver, a bit of copper and other random metals. I will post pictures of the response later on today.

We are no longer looking to sell to a private dealer, rather we will be sending it to PCGS or ANACS for further authentication and get it slabbed. Yes we should have done this before, in fact we did, with the NGC, but thanks to Heritage dropping the ball we are back to square one.

All in all a lot of "experts" dropped the ball on this coin, which in a way is good, because this suggests just how scarce this coin is.

I will be pleased to keep you updated as we move forward; if anyone would like to make an offer for the coin once it returns from being authenticated and slabbed, please call 207.290.4900, but honestly an auction is probably best suited, but I do not own the coin and I know my friend would like to see it sell sooner rather than later.

Feel free to touch base with me here, or by email lgary2010@gmail.com

LG

Hey, Joseph Dill - Owner of OriginalEarthling F3S here.
 My business is to provide wild and farmed materials, seeds, plants, etc.  I also advertise Photography, Salvage, expansive and flexible Services, as well as Sales.  This family business of mine is fairly new and includes all of the trades of each of my six children, and my wife.  Most of the income of our business, so far, has been from selling wild seed. Lately, an influx of salvage based income, antiques, and metal recycling has put bread on the table.  Coins are an occasional benefit of salvage and treasure hunting - and yes, we use metal detectors and we do dig at EVERY *BLIP* and *BEEEP*.  We scoop up EVERY washer and bolt, nail and tack, and every penny...  Truth is, most metal we salvage is absolutely scrap and goes to the recycling center to be sold at weight value.  All coins are kept if their "melt value" is lower than their face value, and this is the beginning of the process of deciding whether or not to let one of the kids keep the coin for fun or future, or to sell it at weight value, or to attempt auction.  Our 1876 50p passed through our own hands several times amongst other low denomination coins of very similar color and condition - while I was actually without internet for some time after the coin surfaced, therefore I lacked resource to research the coin that simply appeared to be old silver.  The very day that I had regained internet access I went through a list of coins to determine values...

Yeah, ONESTEEL RECYCLING, INC., Bangor, Maine, does possess the Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t XRF Analyzer, and their fancy handheld devise is described like this:

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...so, with that in mind, the 1876 50p is said to be .75 fine silver - and it turns out that mine was analyzed and discovered to be 76.19% silver, 22% copper, and the remainder a mixture of iron and lead...  
It's true, a world-renowned expert at an international auction site directly suggested aluminum, LOL - with a business of that stature, why don't they have nondestructive, non-chemical, high-tech devises such as the Nito XL3t XRF Analyzer?  That sir made the deal to sell it for 10% commission based upon his "world expert" seeing the very pictures that you folks here have criticized as counterfeit (I actually sent them over a dozen close up shots from all angles prior to agreement).  Then he held it and wondered that it may be aluminum, then sent it back to me...?!   I have aluminum coins twice the volume of the 50p, and they weigh half as much...  [What kind of senior numismatist could honestly make such a proclamation?]   

If the precise weight of the coin were plugged into an equation which took into account the actual percentages of which elements are present in the coin - and each individual elemental weight considered into a solution which indicates the specific gravity of the whole coin... then not only would the coin have been proven not to contain aluminum whatsoever, but also the wear verses composition might have better answered the specific gravity demands of analysis.  

This coin was never part of any prestigious collection, it was apparently not counterfeited for commercial or collectible exchange; it was stored inconspicuously in a Planters Peanuts tin from the 1950's, there was dirt and debris amongst the iron tack nails, and there were coins mixed in below the top layer of nails.  I have photos of the nails which were in the tin, the surface layer having actual clusters of nails "welded" together by rust.  There were other Nordic coins, other European coins, some WWII era coins (some German), some pre-WWII coins, and most of the weight in the can was actually Canadian Nickels and Canadian Pennies.  No coin in the tin was dated post-1950's.  We suspect that the can had been stashed over 50 years ago, and long since forgotten; to say the least, NOBODY had touched or located this little peanut can of nails and coins for a very long time.  It seems likely that the whomever stashed the tin had some idea of future values of coins, but clearly did little to nothing to follow up on that; maybe died or completely forgot about the coins, and certainly did not treat the 1876 50p as any sort of prize.  

I dare say that the coin is truly one of a kind.  Since it appears likely that ONLY counterfeits of this particular nature have surfaced; no other 1876 50p has been recorded in popular or public census, then my coin would obviously and easily be considered "just another counterfeit" -  but I have faith that the coin is genuine, and thanks to elemental analysis via x-ray, we are all one step closer to discovery.  Besides, what point and liability are associated with the NGC sealing it in a plastic/poly case with a hologram that verifies authenticity...?  Obviously the NGC did not say, it's fake, they did not say it is aluminum; they simply suggested that more could be done with the coin in order to establish actual grade and value, and that otherwise, it is authentic.    

Okay what's your point?

I never thought it was fake, honestly. I've seen fake coins, and they're just obvious copies.

I don't understand a thing.      Could someone explain this situation?  

If both NGC and Heritage thinks it's a fake, it's a fake. My own opinion is pretty much irrelevant because I'm by no means possesed of the technical means or expert knowledge to make a determination. However, both those companies are and deal with rarities, both real and imagined every day.

What I do know, and as antiquities dealers these two gentlemen also ought to know, is that when assessing an artifact the issue of provenenance comes into play. This is true of rare coins or Egyptian mummies. Consider the US Continental Dollars for a moment. I have one, it's fake. Want to know how I know? Every single example known to have been minted is accounted for. If I had bought it from one of the collections known to have one then it would have provenance. I bought it as part of a bunch of coins at the flea market - it has no provenance.

So let's move to the coin in question..... there are plenty of chinese fakes with the correct alloy mixture, high end items, not the $2 "Morgans". Strike one.

Everyone who has viewed the coin from NGC down to the members here thinks it's a fake. The only people insisting it's real are the people trying to sell it. Strike two.

It is without provenance. Strike three, yer out!

P.S. I really miss tewcd.

I really miss you too!  I'm still here, sort of.  I have been lurking and checking in occasionally.  

You know, OriginalEarthling and ArcaneMaine have a point -- Who in their right mind would commit such a mountainous sum as $17.00 in raw materials for the manufacture of a coin that may yield them a measly 50,000% return?  I guess now that they've scanned it with the Quasi Scientific Dacron 3XL WTF Intoxilyzer, the jury is back!

You know what I see when I google the "Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t XRF Analyzer"?  The first THREE PAGES are 99% composed of sites run by companies called Termo Scientific or Niton.

How about using a mass spectrometer?  If its good enough for the ANA and for scientists everywhere, why not?  See, for instance, here.  The coin shop near my house even has one of these: http://www.spectralabsci.com/Products/Default.aspx?productId=447&categoryId=23

As a side note, can any mods check to see if there's some dual account action going on here?

Lawrence Gary with Arcane Maine,.. hey guys, its simple,.. we want anyone who can qualify it to do so at their discretion. Take a look at it, make up your own mind. I have great respect for skepticism. For all I know the nails were worth more. Let me be clear, the NGC authenticated the coin. I know because I drove all the way down to Biddeford a few hours away to find a certified dealer. We sent it in and got it back slabbed.

How would you test this item for authenticity?

Lawrence Gary, Owner
lgary2010@gmail.com
admin@arcanemaine.com, http://arcanemaine.com
admin@boogobidesign.com, http://boogobidesign.com
OnSite Computer Repair & Service - http://onsite.boogobidesign.com
U.S. 1.207.290.4900
(9am-5pm)

It is virtually impossible. Which is what makes this the perfect crime.

I trust NGC to authenticate this as much as I trust my cousin Ed to authenticate a Picasso. I think it was highly irresponsible of them to even body bag this with a genuine label.

That's a pretty stern stance,.. sinister even I suppose,.. but if you found a tin with coins in it, what would you do with it? PCGS? ANACS? I spoke with ANACS and have emails from Kim stating that they feel confident they could verify its authenticity. Would you send it to them?

On another note, you and your friend seem to forget that collectible coins were counterfeited in 1876. Coins were counterfeited for sale to numismatosts in the 1930's and 40's, too. This coin has been known as a rare example since -- at the latest -- the 1930's. It would not have been past any counterfeiter to make this item.

All I have is a book Some high tech metal detector agreeing with what's in that book. Are my pennies real? I ran over a penny and it broke in half, so I have my doubts,..

?

Kim Price of anacs.com, ANACS

11:22 AM (14 hours ago)


"I showed this to a grader and this is something we could definitely look at. We may have to send it to a consultant, though we won't know for sure until we see it. Does this help? are there any other questions? "

Thanks
 

I think that if we send it to ANACS and it comes back graded, very well.  BUT if it comes back with a simple statement of "Questionable Authenticity", than that seems ambiguous; far too vague.  I would like to see analysis results from mass spectrometers if that's what they use.  I'd like each detail which might be suggested to be questionable to be accounted for specifically by consultants as well as advanced technicians.  

So far I am able to say that though folks have loosely considered the coin to be fake, nobody has produced a genuine replica or genuine mint of a 1876 50p to compare this coin to. NOBODY at HA, NGC, or ANACS has delivered a clear and definite, absolute answer and index of detail which establishes the coin to not be authentic; rather I have received what appears to be responses in the range of insecure confusion or bumbling stabs at excuse of liability with regard to verifying that the coin is indeed grade-worthy and in turn able to be posted for auction.  We have established that I am ignorant, but that I do posses a decent and expanding collection of neat coins, also that I am quick to learn, and that I reply sharply to unfounded criticism.  We also seem to have established a record of a few jerks which are blatantly attempting to undermine legitimate business - you've gone so far to even assess the scenario as criminal, which seems like a clear accusation in order to interfere with future financial based interaction with the commercially dependent business of OriginalEarthling F3S!  

I contend that if it cannot be specifically PROVEN counterfeit than it must be deemed genuine.  Otherwise, am I to assume that the decision of such a rare coin's capacity to be traded or sold hangs in the balance of assumption?  

Kangaroo court-style tactics is what I feel here, in this forum which is obviously closely associated with HA [images, etc]; foolishly supposing it might contain aluminum, as suggested by a senior consultant at HA whom supposedly interacted with ANACS regarding the matter - seems to indicate that ANACS was not actually directly involved with their high technology and I was misled by the consultant, or that ANACS has a faulty technician or devise, yet offered no copy of analysis results.  So what did HA do in order to establish the decision to not sell the coin, other than suggest it's "questionable authenticity"?   One thing that may have affected the consultant's decision to return the coin may have been interaction with fellow coin "experts" that are truly less than expert; some monkey in this forum suggests that he contacted the consultant with direct intention of becoming involved with the interactions concerning my coin, a very critical and cynical monkey to boot!  Was that the same dim-witted monkey that suspects LG and JD to be the same entity posing under various disguise?  

OE, I am new here so maybe I shouldn't even get involved, but I just have to say that you should really look into selling used cars... you are relentless in your attempts at proving this coin to us. In the end does it matter? We all think its questionable or fake, if in the end you make thousands of dollars off of it, then power to you buddy. Again, new guy here lol.  

I guess, the members that can be bothered to post on here, are not afraid of confrontation and are willing to stand up for what is right in their eyes.
  I must admit that, as Forum Moderator, I have been keeping a close eye on this thread. Interestingly, this post was dormant until AM posted...followed by a similarly punctuated and written piece of prose by OE...but I don't really care about all that. I care about that tin of nails...always undervalued...if you can sell the 50 Pennia, as above, more power to you, if you can't don't come and stir up an argument that has been dead for 7 months.
I'm not buying, good day sir.

OE, I don't take kindly to being called a monkey, and I never contacted anyone at HA. All I said is that I could if I wanted to to check the veracity of your statement. Moreover, I've done nothing to accuse you of a crime, I've just criticized your attempts to sell a coin without going to every length to ensure its authenticity.

I have a moon rock personally given to me by Elvis. As you can't prove it isn't, then it must be genuine right?

I have to question what your motives are in returning to a forum where it is already clear nobody is even remotely interested in buying your "rarity". Are you genuinely trying to find a buyer or do you have other, motives? If I were trying to find a buyer I really don't think I would be communicating in such ill-tempered and inflammatory terms so what ARE you trying to achieve?

Then again, if I was looking to sell a coin of such value I would have it handled by one of the large auction houses who would take over the responsibility of assesing it. Oh wait, you tried that didn't you and they weren't interested.

You have refused to even consider anything which doesn't support your own self-interested viewpoint and have abused the members here in the most vile terms.

Moderators, PLEASE close this thread and preferably delete it in it's entirety along with it's originator.

Think of the evasion coins of the 1700's - what's to say this isn't one ? If I were you I would send it to one more place to have it authenticated..  Or maybe have it cleaned by the original place who slabbed it - see where that takes you. If you're so cock-sure of it then you won't mind paying the bit extra. It's worth while if it still comes back inconclusive then just have it auctioned off.. Explain the circumstances of its discovery then of the places it's been - leave it in its slab and include all letters detailing what it is and that'll put an end to this madness !

Quote: tewcdBy the way, all the information you got about Heritage Auctions can be gotten pretty quickly by reading their website for 5 minutes.  I'm going to call the number for Brad Meadows tomorrow, and just for sh*ts and giggles, I'll ask him if he's talked to someone about an ultra-rare 1876 50 pennia.

I wonder what he'll say?

I couldn't remember who said it, so I was firing blindly with the monkey statement; but it was indeed this comment that lead me to believe there may be personal and degrading involvement of others...  If only this thread could be shut down, and better of course, that it be shut down when you have the last derogatory word, huh?  

LOL - I'd love this thread shut down, all I have to lose in this matter is the memories of a monkey or two fling poo from the trees - so high above and beyond me.  :)

I love monkeys buy the way, most are cute, and I treat them like cousins, like kind, curious cousins, until they fling poo!   

I don't take kindly to suggestions that Elvis visited the moon, or had moon rocks to sell.  BOO HOO for me, huh?!   BUT there may be some veracity in your statement as well - maybe Elvis is alive, and exporting moon rocks by the ton?  Does Elvis have a 1876 50p(?), if yes, he and I should compare notes!

Conversation was idle for 3 months, maybe slightly less actually.  I work for Lawrence Gary, on demand, and he occasionally interacts my business as well.  We live near each other.  We went to grade school together.  We may even share punctuation style with regard to conversation.  We are both born the month even!  LOL, but we have different wives - if that's any consolation.  I believe we have separate fathers, and most likely, since I have not been notified otherwise, we have separate mothers.  

Nearly every bit of my response and reaction in this thread has been defensive, starting with someone calling "shenanigans" right at the starting line - admittedly, that put my into a defensive position.  I would love to have encountered some form of interaction which would have led me compassionately to understanding the world of coin collection and trade.  I did not know that folks would be so brash from the opening gate of the race against my own lack of understanding.   Meanwhile I feel bound to defending the coin, at least in this thread, and I feel like reacting to every other little jeer that I encounter as well, so bring it on, or boot me, or close the thread.  Or hit reset, and see if I communicate better as well.  I am not so cock-sure as I am actually, simply, fired up!  What homely rooster stepped up first (in this thread) to take my honest approach at exploring this coin and turned the whole matter into an apparent game of shenanigans: she·nan·i·gans, noun: Secret or dishonest activity or maneuvering.  

tewcd, you stepped up quick and with some persuasive insinuation, just to call me a liar.  It's like screaming fire, at the pool, just so you can watch everyone exist, as a precaution to what?  I am liable for criminal activity, supposing I commit a crime, for sure; if I sold this coin as authentic, then it was proven fake, I would surly face those consequences - so I am ripped wide open at your insinuation, from the very start!  
As far as I'm concerned, like anyone falsely accused or preemptively accused, publicly, I will still be considered to be playing this game of shenanigans, as you say, even as I attempt to see that the matters of all of my coins are handled professionally and responsibly.  Only mistake I've made so far was my initial approach, and every reply to this thread since then, that's all.    
I feel like, due to this thread alone, that I should not have chosen one of the largest coin-collecting communities on the web to gain a footing in this network, since being called a deceiver, outright, from my first "to do" with any of this.  
So, yeah, like I said, I am highly offended, feel like defending, and still - I have nothing to loose; some mangy roosters here slung me to the wolves right of the bat.  So I will linger, I will reply, likely, and I will hope that beyond this, fake coin or not, that I find a better day down the road, as I have an extensive, and growing, collection of coins.

If I receive one single, actual and reliable, proven and sure indication, specifically identifying that this coin is not genuine, I will be the very first to say so, here.  I won't feel bad or humiliated saying that it is fake, if it is.  Here, I am not defending the coin (that has not been proven fake) as much I am interacting a banter aimed at deteriorating my own personal integrity.   Until then, I shall be an available contender for all sorts or argument and speculation, especially if I am personally criticized or denounced in whatever process.    

Seriously, casting doubt upon my every attempt to maneuver through this, while I remain expressive none the less, is precisely what motivates and fuels this argument.  I'm game.  
tewcd, you said quite clearly that you 'are going to' call HA, not that you could:  "I'm going to call the number for Brad Meadows tomorrow, and just for sh*ts and giggles, I'll ask him if he's talked to someone about an ultra-rare 1876 50 pennia."    You even suggested that I might have scrounged up that story and details relating to it.  Had you called Brad, I would have been vindicated, at least upon that particular matter.   
pnightingale, moon rocks are not a questionable matter, they are from the moon or not - so your rock from Elvis either is or is not genuine, and there are lots of moon rocks and even an entire moon to compare your rock to, unlike this coin.  Now if you said that the rock was from the north pole of the moon, than the authenticity may be questionable, but if it is discovered to be from the moon, than who could argue that it not from the north pole of the moon?

What are the "evasion coins of the 1700's"?    

Having the coin cleaned is something that I've been told I should not do - patina is the matter regarding that, right?  I will pay extra when I am able to afford it, and that is the only matter of time lapse in my efforts to resolve this; that was why I agreed entirely to have HA sell the coin, they said they would have everything done to realize the value of the coin, and that those fees would be deducted from the final auction tally.  Then they sent it back with a simply reply, "questionable authenticity" - including a reply to my demand of "how so", that the specific gravity was not exactly what they said it should be, and suggested explicitly that it may be aluminum!  I have busted that theory already, and lost faith in the credibility of HA only with specific concern of this particular coin; where was the mass spectrometer when it came to the decision of HA to send it back to me attached to the openly expressed idea that it was made of a metal which they clearly did not test for or validate?   

With no cash to spare, and tension amidst the matter already, what would you do, other than wait, and whack the moles that are dishing out the dirt?  Maybe HA will take it back, their cost shipping it to them this time; they hire ANACS to do the full analysis via valid scientific method and precise technology, and then send it back to me, their cost, with details and specific conclusion - or verify it, sell it, pay the pipers, and take their cut?  As it is, I paid to ship it to them, certified delivery with high insurance, just to pay more (there fees of "examination") in order to have them ship it back to me with the vague suggestion that it may be aluminum!  That felt like the real shenanigans, to me, especially when two days ago, after I had an opportunity to go the the recycling facility - to cash in on scrapped metal, which paid for my trip there, three towns away from where I live - to have the coin with me, to have it analyzed with a very precise x-ray devise, to find that it has no aluminum (whatsoever), and that the coin is indeed of composition which compares to genuine 50p of that particular era...  I am very agitated as well as energized when I consider the conclusion of HA that it may be aluminum, and therefor "questionable".  It would have felt good to me to hear them suggest one single thing that has been mentioned in this thread, but they did not.  They did not say that it appeared fake, that actually indicated that by appearances alone, that it was worth their effort to grade - much unlike all of the non-sense here.  They did not say the "six" is in the wrong location, or that the coin directly compared to other known fakes, and the reason for that is, it does not compare to any known counterfeit coins.  AND it does not contain the suspected aluminum, so I am all the more encouraged to hope it is indeed genuine, and I have no reason to feel otherwise - until proven.

 I am a man of science, I appreciate knowing rather than ambiguous claims.  Chances are, so far, that it is not fake, but that the process of getting it graded, ultimately is out of my league (for the time being).  Someone want to step up and take over the matter, financially - and if it proved valid, you take a cut, a percentage?  If I was proved a moron, than the costs of providing that evidence would be all that you encounter, whomever you might be - if you agree to partner this idea.  Mind you, others involved are already either cramming in the car with the clown, or also going to see a share, at whatever rate - including the kind sir that pointed the blessed x-ray gun that the coin!  Seeing that the first business to handle the coin, after it came back from NGC agreed to auction it at a rate of 20% commission, and HA offered at a rate of 10%, I propose that if another steps into this, I would bind contractually to 10% of the total at auction be allocated to the donor I am seeking, supposing that it is verified, sent back to HA, they take 10% (or other auction which does not collect more than 10%) - and I am back where I began (my other business partners and I divide the remaining 80% of the sale total).  If after all effort the coin returns as counterfeit, I bow out of argument, I except the details, and resume business - and I keep the coin as a souvenir.  [Under no circumstance will I release possession of the coin except by official and guaranteed methods; it is mine until sold, or forever.]  

my email is dragonflyshine@originalearthling.com
the phone in my pocket: 207-659-4327

or contact Lawrence Gary, he has provided contact detail; he and I are business partners, though we are surly separate individuals.

OR badger my current suggestion, as some of you have at every other opportunity, and we'll keep tossing the hot potato!   

Quote: Mark240590Think of the evasion coins of the 1700's - what's to say this isn't one ? If I were you I would send it to one more place to have it authenticated..  Or maybe have it cleaned by the original place who slabbed it - see where that takes you. If you're so cock-sure of it then you won't mind paying the bit extra. It's worth while if it still comes back inconclusive then just have it auctioned off.. Explain the circumstances of its discovery then of the places it's been - leave it in its slab and include all letters detailing what it is and that'll put an end to this madness !

I never called you a liar or did anything to tarnish your name -- I did cast doubt on the piece because skepticism is the healthiest attitude one can have when money is at stake.

But, in the interest of civility and settling this argument, let's RESET.

(Pretend this post follows your initial one, and pretend that you aren't offering to sell the coin or exchange it for gold).

That's a very interesting piece you have!  That year and denomination are one of the more rare European coins out there, and if you have a genuine piece, you will be a rich man!

With this sort of coin, I'm afraid you're in for a long road proving its authenticity, and perhaps conserving.  As NGC noted, the coin is in a really strange condition, and probably needs a lot of professional TLC.

There are a couple of worrying signs, though.  This coin would have been known as rare since the 19th century, and a counterfeit could have been produced at any time.  In fact, there are a ton of counterfeits of this coin on chinese websites right now.

I think your best shot to have this authenticated is to take a four-pronged approach:

1) Authentication through auction houses -- have this examined by Spinks, Heritage, and possibly even Stacks Bowers to see if they can authenticate;

2) Authentication through grading services -- I would not only rely on one grading service.  What may be best is to have the coin conserved by NGC, and then see if NGC can give it a grade or can determine anything more about it;

3) Academic authentication -- this is going to be the hardest, but get in touch with someone in Finland who knows a lot about that country's coinage.  There may also be resources in St. Petersburg or Moscow, as Russia would have produced coinage for Finland at that time.  FInd someone who knows this coin, and can verify the fact that examples do exist, and can verify whether or not your coin is real.

4) Scientific verification -- Contact someone with a mass spectrometer, which will more accurately tell you the metal content of the piece, and by comparison to other Finnish coins of the era, could tell you whether or not the silver contained in your coin is similar to the silver contained in those Finnish coins.

It is my personal belief that there is a very strong chance this coin is a counterfeit.  The odds of this coin, in this condition (which, to be honest, looks like it may have been doctored) being genuine, are long.  I know NGC certified it, but NGC has a fairly high failure rate (as do all TPG's).  Third-Party Graders tend to fail more often in more specialty areas, and this is definitely a specialty coin.

I think that what NGC has given you is a theory -- much like the big bang theory, the theory of relativity, etc.  Your theory is not the truth, but it has not yet been disproven.  We have elements of doubt that come into play and can poke holes in your theory, but none of us here could possibly disprove your theory.  That requires scientific research.  

Now, as with the best theories, if your theory becomes "law" by a concurrence of a majority of experts on the subject, then your coin will sell at value.  If, however, your coin remains a theory, I don't think it is reasonable to expect any buyer to pay you anything more than what I would call a "gambler's price" -- the price someone who has the means to prove or disprove the piece would be willing to pay to test it out.  And, of course, if your theory is disproven, then it will be a shame, but that's the hobby!

Best of luck in finding out the provenance of your coin!

Thank you for a clear response to my earlier question, and certainly your time.

LG

I thank tewcd for making a fair conclusion and review and hope OE will also aknowledge the wise RESET of the thread. We look forward to hearing if your piece is genuine or not. Fingers crossed!

Comfortable, at least, and well put.  This very reply would have definitely set my course a bit (or much) differently back in January, and thenceforth.

Thank you, tewcd especially, for putting your thoughts into this so far as to deliver a neutral and articulately directive reply.

I am objective I think it could be either nobody will know until it's been graded as such all I was saying Is evasion coins were produced at the time of genuine coins hundreds of years ago but before them counterfeiters made them look exactly as the genuine thing so don't discount that possible route it may be a genuine fake ha !

This whole tread is making me dizzy  !!! Moderators, please get rid of it!

Quote: dptashnyThis whole tread is making me dizzy  !!! Moderators, please get rid of it!

No need...this thread has come to an amiable conclusion. I'm glad that this is the case as it could have gone either way!

Quote: bam777

Quote: dptashnyThis whole tread is making me dizzy  !!! Moderators, please get rid of it!

No need...this thread has come to an amiable conclusion. I'm glad that this is the case as it could have gone either way!

Okay, at least it's over!